SURVEY: Citizenship for all?

[Scott]

There have been some recent threads about the granting of citizenship to the coach and some of the boys from the recent cave rescue.   In your opinion, should Thailand grant automatic citizenship to all children born in Thailand who do not have a right to citizenship in another country and who do not have a parent who is a native born Thai citizen?

 

Please feel free to leave a comment.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1052136-mu-pa-citizenship-approval-explained/

 

[Samui Bodoh]

Yes, children born in Thailand who would not otherwise have citizenship from their parents should receive it automatically; denying them citizenship means that they have few/no rights and are the modern day equivalent of slaves.

 

The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation. Yes, Thailand can and should develop rules and regulations to govern the process in order to prevent abuse, but they should grant it.

 

Being born in Thailand should not be, for all intents and purposes, a crime.

 

And, newborns are not criminals.

 

Ever.

 

[yellowboat]

Even to put it into the most mercenary terms:  No other countries are going to accept them, they will learn the language and be assimilated.   Not granting them citizenship is just wasting time. 

[JAG]

12 minutes ago, yellowboat said:

Even to put it into the most mercenary terms:  No other countries are going to accept them, they will learn the language and be assimilated.   Not granting them citizenship is just wasting time. 

Unless perhaps, you are a "person of influence" whose various businesses benefit if you can use stateless labour on B250 a day? 

 

If, let's say, you are a construction contractor, with good contacts. You need to employ 200 people. That is a saving of B20, 000 a day, a tidy sum over a year. 

 

Then keeping the status quo might be seen as a good policy to be encouraged, using your "influence"... 

Edited August 12, 2018 by JAG

[Number 6]

This is stupid. It's not our decision anyway, we can't even get permanent residency.

 

Guaranteed you will have thousands of anchor babies here from dozens of countries. All f central Asia, China, Iran, South Asia, all neighboring countries. Ridiculous notion.

 

I think the US should also disallow citizenship by birth when both parents are not citizens. In fact, I would revoke citizenship of many of the Chinese and Latin  Americans  which have purposefully gamed the system.

 

I did not vote.

[Small Joke]

2 hours ago, Number 6 said:

This is stupid. It's not our decision anyway, we can't even get permanent residency.

 

Guaranteed you will have thousands of anchor babies here from dozens of countries. All f central Asia, China, Iran, South Asia, all neighboring countries. Ridiculous notion.

 

I think the US should also disallow citizenship by birth when both parents are not citizens. In fact, I would revoke citizenship of many of the Chinese and Latin  Americans  which have purposefully gamed the system.

 

I did not vote.

Gaming systems and playing the man is what makes life in modern times bearable. 

I don't get the small minded rubber stamp rectitude of too many humans.  Since when does one man have the 'right' to declare himself his brothers keeper.  

Time all these archoles with a love of uniforms and inordinate order all went to live on an island where they can preserve their racial purity, and  lord it over each other with fuss pot rules, and neat little ration lines. 

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Yes, children born in Thailand who would not otherwise have citizenship from their parents should receive it automatically; denying them citizenship means that they have few/no rights and are the modern day equivalent of slaves.

 

The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation. Yes, Thailand can and should develop rules and regulations to govern the process in order to prevent abuse, but they should grant it.

 

Being born in Thailand should not be, for all intents and purposes, a crime.

 

And, newborns are not criminals.

 

Ever.

 

 

All true, 

 

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

 

Our maid in Chiang Mai is a hilltribe lady, sh'e s a gem, she speaks English from missionary contact when she was smaller, her three teenage kids (2m,1F) are all highly intelligent, very well behaved, always helpful and productive, they all speak English, husband also productive. Both parents hold multiple jobs to get enough money for their kids to get the best education possible in their overall situation. As a team the teenage kids teach younger hilltribe kids and Thai kids to speak English and to swim, they all have massive potential but roadblocks and bias everywhere because they are stateless. 

 

Regularly they re-check if there's anything changed / new in terms of applying for citizenship, disappointed every time. 

 

Not fair.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by scorecard

[timkeen08]

I have never heard of this being discussed either way among the Thais I know since I have lived here.  My opinion is I keep out of Thai business.  No comment.

[wwest5829]

Without comment as this is a decision for Thai citizens. Buddha knows, my own country is wrestling with this question of its own citizenship requirements currently. It a bit more complicated than a yes or no answer. Like so much in life...it depends....

Edited August 12, 2018 by wwest5829

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

All true, 

 

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

 

Our maid in Chiang Mai is a hilltribe lady, sh'e s a gem, she speaks English from missionary contact when she was smaller, her three teenage kids (2m,1F) are all highly intelligent, very well behaved, always helpful and productive, they all speak English, husband also productive. Both parents hold multiple jobs to get enough money for their kids to get the best education possible in their overall situation. As a team the teenage kids teach younger hilltribe kids and Thai kids to speak English and to swim, they all have massive potential but roadblocks and bias everywhere because they are stateless. 

 

Regularly they re-check if there's anything changed / new in terms of applying for citizenship, disappointed every time. 

 

Not fair.

 

 

On a broader note, IMHO the UN is a failure. Surely one of the things the UN should have totally sorted out 50 years ago is this subject so that every human being (every human being) is fully recognized in every way as an equal human being.  On this front what has the UN achieved in 90+ years. Nothing, total nothing - disgraceful. 

 

 

 

[berybert]

6 hours ago, JAG said:

Unless perhaps, you are a "person of influence" whose various businesses benefit if you can use stateless labour on B250 a day? 

 

If, let's say, you are a construction contractor, with good contacts. You need to employ 200 people. That is a saving of B20, 000 a day, a tidy sum over a year. 

 

Then keeping the status quo might be seen as a good policy to be encouraged, using your "influence"... 

Because having 2 billion baht in the bank you will never spend is much better than having a billion baht in the bank you will never spend.

The 20,000 baht a day that is being saved and not spent would otherwise be spent by the people who would have earnt it. So who does it actually benefit ?

Edited August 12, 2018 by berybert

[JAG]

15 minutes ago, berybert said:

Because having 2 billion baht in the bank you will never spend is much better than having a billion baht in the bank you will never spend.

The 20,000 baht a day that is being saved and not spent would otherwise be spent by the people who would have earnt it. So who does it actually benefit ?

   Umh, the employer who gets to save on his labour costs? 

[MyFriend You]

Being a tax paying American, (and I pay a lot of taxes, enough to keep a hundred Thai families alive for a year) - I am against anchor babies, its a huge drain on resources,,,,,,,,and unscrupulous people using it as a 'free pass' to social services.  Nuff said, thats another topic all by itself.  back to to the op  - I would have added another choice:  like number 3 except I would shorten the amount of time it takes to get citizenship for grownups - and with a caveat that at age 18, Thai Citizenship would be automatic for those of good status (non-criminals) "born in Thailand" with proof of that...........identity cards would be issued to those born in country (maybe they have already, I don't know).  As for those not born in Thailand, keep it as it is - or Thailand will wind up as other third world countries, 'those with $$ can be citizens'  Oh wait, isn't it already is there?? 

Edited August 12, 2018 by TunnelRat69

[khunken]

I didn't vote because my preferred option wasn't offered.

 

I don't think the citizenship should be automatic, nor do I thing it should take years.

 

There should be a clearly defined process where stateless people (not only children) should be able to claim citizenship within a matter of weeks. No bribes or expensive fees should be a hurdle.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, timkeen08 said:

I have never heard of this being discussed either way among the Thais I know since I have lived here.  My opinion is I keep out of Thai business.  No comment.

 

It does get discussed by better informed Thais.

 

It doesn't get discussed by my bachelor level uni students in Bkk, they don't even know where Chiang Rai is, or the name of the counties above, below, east, west of Thailand.

 

They would instantly think 'Stateless' is a new Korean on-line fashion site.

 

 

 

[sirineou]

20 minutes ago, khunken said:

I didn't vote because my preferred option wasn't offered.

 

I don't think the citizenship should be automatic, nor do I thing it should take years.

 

There should be a clearly defined process where stateless people (not only children) should be able to claim citizenship within a matter of weeks. No bribes or expensive fees should be a hurdle.

I remember  I read somewhere that there is a process for citizenship. If that process is adequate or needs to be streamlined is arguable, but such process exists, to make it automatic is stupid IMO and open to abuse as seen in other places such as the US . 

[Ulic]

I choose option D/ A streamlined process where children born in Thailand could apply for citizenship after graduating from high school. The government           would have 1 year to process the claim.  

[scorecard]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I remember  I read somewhere that there is a process for citizenship. If that process is adequate or needs to be streamlined is arguable, but such process exists, to make it automatic is stupid IMO and open to abuse as seen in other places such as the US . 

 

Hill tribe people born in Thailand can apply for Thai citizenship, and there is a process. This has existed for decades.

 

From time to time there are reports in newspapers about the number of applications approve, very very small numbers. And the total time for processing years.

 

Further it's well known that many of the Thai officials involved deliberately go slow.

 

When the initial newspaper articles mentioned granting Thai citizenship to the 4 'cave' boys there was an interview with a senior Thai official who made a simple comment ' not possible'.

 

My Thai adult son has a passion to gain worldly knowledge and be well informed including his own country, past and present, he reads continuously Thai and English.

 

He watched the quick interview mentioned in my paragraph just above, his comment, the Thai officer is obviously racist, he's trying to kill the whole idea because of his own bias and superiority. 

 

Luckily someone higher demanded the boys be granted Thai citizenship. 

 

 

 

[berybert]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

   Umh, the employer who gets to save on his labour costs? 

The guy who has more money than he can spend, how does he benefit from it ? 

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, berybert said:

The guy who has more money than he can spend, how does he benefit from it ? 

More money, it's actually called greed.

 

 

[berybert]

Just now, scorecard said:

More money, it's actually called greed.

 

 

Doesn't always work. 200 people earn 300 baht a day making a product that cost 100 baht None of the people earning 300 baht can afford it. If they were paid and extra 200 baht each of them would be buying the product on a regular basics. Multiply that by millions of people who earn 300 baht a day. The employer's would be losing out on a fortune by not paying their workers more money.

[DrTuner]

Nothing regarding immigration, naturalization, etc should ever be automatic. But the processes should be efficient and clear for all. In Thailand most bureaucracy is complete crap.

[Small Joke]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

All true, 

 

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

 

Our maid in Chiang Mai is a hilltribe lady, sh'e s a gem, she speaks English from missionary contact when she was smaller, her three teenage kids (2m,1F) are all highly intelligent, very well behaved, always helpful and productive, they all speak English, husband also productive. Both parents hold multiple jobs to get enough money for their kids to get the best education possible in their overall situation. As a team the teenage kids teach younger hilltribe kids and Thai kids to speak English and to swim, they all have massive potential but roadblocks and bias everywhere because they are stateless. 

 

Regularly they re-check if there's anything changed / new in terms of applying for citizenship, disappointed every time. 

 

Not fair.

 

 

The bar stewards in Bangkok are quite happy to send Thai working class kids to die for the northern hill tribe territory if needs be.  But the aboriginal people's on it can take a hike as far as they're concerned. 

The smart thing, long term would be to absolutely bring them into the fold, lob a few social programs in, like subsidised health and education, and form and pay local militias, then they wouldn't need the expense of an army division or ten up there, and while they're at it, why not sell off the tiresome Islamic deep south back to Malaysia - it's historically theirs anyway. But hey,  I'm no Thai policy wonk (thank providence).

Edited August 12, 2018 by Small Joke

[sirineou]

36 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Hill tribe people born in Thailand can apply for Thai citizenship, and there is a process. This has existed for decades.

 

From time to time there are reports in newspapers about the number of applications approve, very very small numbers. And the total time for processing years.

 

Further it's well known that many of the Thai officials involved deliberately go slow.

 

When the initial newspaper articles mentioned granting Thai citizenship to the 4 'cave' boys there was an interview with a senior Thai official who made a simple comment ' not possible'.

 

My Thai adult son has a passion to gain worldly knowledge and be well informed including his own country, past and present, he reads continuously Thai and English.

 

He watched the quick interview mentioned in my paragraph just above, his comment, the Thai officer is obviously racist, he's trying to kill the whole idea because of his own bias and superiority. 

 

Luckily someone higher demanded the boys be granted Thai citizenship. 

 

 

 

 all of that could be very true, and the process could need reform.In fact having being a part of the visa merry go round as I know all of as have, can attest to the need for system reform. but one would not advocate the elimination of visas.there is a need for a process to control migration. The same is IMO true for citizenship.  

[Tchooptip]

5 hours ago, Number 6 said:

This is stupid. It's not our decision anyway, we can't even get permanent residency.

 

Guaranteed you will have thousands of anchor babies here from dozens of countries. All f central Asia, China, Iran, South Asia, all neighboring countries. Ridiculous notion.

 

I think the US should also disallow citizenship by birth when both parents are not citizens. In fact, I would revoke citizenship of many of the Chinese and Latin  Americans  which have purposefully gamed the system.

 

I did not vote.

3

Both my parents were French, not British, however, I was born in London in November 1944...My father had rejoined England via Spain already at the risk of his life. Then he became a paratrooper of the Free French Forces. He lost his life in combat in July 1944. So with two non-British parents and me born in London,  you should think I do not deserve my British passport?

By the way, I am proud of it.
 

[lamyai3]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

After the cave rescue there was a "where are they now" picture circulating on social media, showing four or five of the boys in the cave, on top of another photo of four or five ladyboys all posing outside a bar. Although obviously it was in poor taste, it was also a reflection of the marginalisation of the poorest and most unprivileged here, whose lack of social and educational opportunities often pushes them into having to make the worst life choices. 

[scorecard]

40 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 all of that could be very true, and the process could need reform.In fact having being a part of the visa merry go round as I know all of as have, can attest to the need for system reform. but one would not advocate the elimination of visas.there is a need for a process to control migration. The same is IMO true for citizenship.  

 

Point taken and respected however I'm not sure that's comparing apples with apples.

 

90% maybe 99% of Westerners do have options, most (not all) of us could go back to our original countries and have opportunities, freedom of travel and a good quality of life.

 

Hill tribe folks:

(Cut and paste)

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

 

I repeat, I respect your points.

 

 

 

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Point taken and respected however I'm not sure that's comparing apples with apples.

 

90% maybe 99% of Westerners do have options, most (not all) of us could go back to our original countries and have opportunities, freedom of travel and a good quality of life.

 

Hill tribe folks:

(Cut and paste)

"The simple fact is that a 'stateless' person suffers greatly in terms of opportunities, the ability to lead a normal life, and is open to abuse based on their birth and lack of documentation."

 

Well said, and the lack of opportunities, education, quality of life, restrictions on freedom of movement, travel abroad etc., is for whole of life.

 

I repeat, I respect your points.

 

 

 

 Don't disagree with anything you said.

My comparison was simply made to illustrate my understanding that processes  in Thailand can use reform, but not to imply equivalency, I understand the differences. 

  I am opposed to "automatic" option because of its inherent unforeseen and foreseen problems.  Perhaps special provisions can be made for "tribes" to be able to expedite due to their "special" situation. I proposed reforms, but not being educated on the subject, I have litle opinion on specifics.   

[Credo]

Anyone born in Thailand, or anywhere else, who does not have the right to citizenship elsewhere should be made a citizen of the country of birth.   

 

Asia has a problem with stateless people and it's so unnecessary.   In addition, they can't be deported or go anywhere because no one else is responsible for them.  

 

[chicowoodduck]

The soil you were born on should be called home, even if it is a rock.....?