Amity Treaty -- No Work Permit Needed

[ricklev]

After seeing their ads on this site, I met with the helpful owner of Sunbelt who confirmed that an Amity Treaty company no longer needs a work permit and that I could work on a retirement visa because of the change in the definition of work.  I was told this is because the legal definition of work excludes the operation of business of the person holding a foreign business license under the foreign business law of Thailand.”       https://www.sunbeltasia.com/us-amity-treaty-thailand

 

Before I go that route...... has anyone else heard anything about this anywhere?

 

Thanks!

[glegolo]

Seems to me at least to be a bit of missunderstanding here. Not only you said USA manage to change the deifinition of work but they also managed to change the definitition of an extension of stay based on retirement.

 

So americans can  actually work while being on retirement-premises here, strange..... OR is it just another silly missunderstanding??

 

glegolo

[ubonjoe]

You could form a company under the amity treaty but you would not be able to be involved in the day to day operation of the company without a work permit. You could be a owner/director without a work permit to attend meetings and etc under the new rules.

[ricklev]

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You could form a company under the amity treaty but you would not be able to be involved in the day to day operation of the company without a work permit. You could be a owner/director without a work permit to attend meetings and etc under the new rules.

According to Sunbelt, you can now be fully involved in the day to day operation and openly perform any kind of work depending on the company objectives without a work permit and on a retirement visa (or a variety of other long term visas). 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, ricklev said:

According to Sunbelt, you can now be fully involved in the day to day operation and openly perform any kind of work depending on the company objectives without a work permit and on a retirement visa (or a variety of other long term visas). 

As far as I know they are wrong or you may be misunderstanding them.

[ricklev]

23 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

As far as I know they are wrong or you may be misunderstanding them.

Thanks Ubonjoe. I know!  It's definitely not my misunderstanding.  I spent a half hour with Greg, the owner of Sunbelt last week who patiently endured my skepticism.   Read the link or click on their ad.   https://www.sunbeltasia.com/us-amity-treaty-thailand    

 

My current lawyer simply said it wasn't true.  I asked him if he contacted the Ministry of Labor about it.  His answer was no he did not.

 

I sent an email to the person who deals with the Amity Treaty at Commercial Services at the US Embassy.  They had absolutely no interest in whether it was true or not.  Not their job........   

 

The recent interview with the head of the Phuket labor office made me wonder if it might just be true as I didn't believe that work permit holders could now work anywhere for anyone either and he confirms that.  Unrelated, but just as unlikely......

 

[Tanoshi]

24 minutes ago, ricklev said:

Thanks Ubonjoe. I know!  It's definitely not my misunderstanding.  I spent a half hour with Greg, the owner of Sunbelt last week who patiently endured my skepticism.   Read the link or click on their ad.   https://www.sunbeltasia.com/us-amity-treaty-thailand 

From the link you supplied;

Quote

New changes in the law now allow for directors of Amity Treaty companies to work without work permits.

Clearly what UJ suggested.

Quote

As you can see in section 5 of the Emergency Decree the definition of work has been changed, and now means “the engaging in any occupation with or without an employer, excluding the operation of business

That to me clearly states you cannot work in the business.

 

[Peterw42]

It appears they are playing with semantics rather than a clear definition. It appears you still need a Visa/extension that "allows" you to work, and you wont get the visa/extension without a work permit, open other end.

 

The sunbelt site appears to say as much:

 

"It is important to note that for those who want to obtain a one-year extension for a non-B visa then you will still need to meet the requirements of 4 Thai employees and pay into the social fund, register in the VAT system, and 2 million baht in registered capital and obtain a work permit. If you wish to go this route, please let us know as further information and services will be required."

 

It appears you would still need to have all the criteria in place for a WP,  an Amity company and an appropriate visa/extension, to qualify for "possibly"not needing a WP. 

[ricklev]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It appears they are playing with semantics rather than a clear definition. It appears you still need a Visa/extension that "allows" you to work, and you wont get the visa/extension without a work permit, open other end.

 

The sunbelt site appears to say as much:

 

"It is important to note that for those who want to obtain a one-year extension for a non-B visa then you will still need to meet the requirements of 4 Thai employees and pay into the social fund, register in the VAT system, and 2 million baht in registered capital and obtain a work permit. If you wish to go this route, please let us know as further information and services will be required."

 

It appears you would still need to have all the criteria in place for a WP,  an Amity company and an appropriate visa/extension, to qualify for "possibly"not needing a WP. 

Sunbelt is saying that anything done for an Amity Company  (which Sunbelt says holds a foreign business license under the foreign business law of Thailand.”   is no longer defined as work, therefore a marriage or retirement visa etc. is fine.  "As you can see in section 5 of the Emergency Decree the definition of work has been changed, and now means “the engaging in any occupation with or without an employer, excluding the operation of business of the person holding a foreign business license under the foreign business law of Thailand.” 

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Quote

As you can see in section 5 of the Emergency Decree the definition of work has been changed, and now means “the engaging in any occupation with or without an employer, excluding the operation of business

That to me clearly states you cannot work in the business.

 

Isnt that sunbelts argument, because the operation of an Amity company now falls outside the definition of work, a WP is not required.

 

It appear you still need all the critera to get a WP in place, just technically you dont need one. There is no point to the exersise, its the same outcome

[ricklev]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Isnt that sunbelts argument, because the operation of an Amity company now falls outside the definition of work, a WP is not required.

 

It appear you still need all the critera to get a WP in place, just technically you dont need one. There is no point to the exersise, its the same outcome

You don't need 4 employees and you don't need capitalization or you can be  sole proprietorship, according to Sunbelt.

[JackThompson]

26 minutes ago, ricklev said:

You don't need 4 employees and you don't need capitalization or you can be  sole proprietorship, according to Sunbelt. 

I don't need help with permitted-stay, so taking that out of the equation ...
Does anyone have a quote as to what Sunbelt is charging to set-up an Amity company for an "American sole proprietorship"?

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Does anyone have a quote as to what Sunbelt is charging to set-up an Amity company for an "American sole proprietorship"?

Sunbelt will be happy to give you information about their current fee free of charge.

[ajarnmarc]

What is an Amity company?

I've googled it now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Amity_and_Economic_Relations_(Thailand–United_States)

 

[TravelerEastWest]

21 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I don't need help with permitted-stay, so taking that out of the equation ...
Does anyone have a quote as to what Sunbelt is charging to set-up an Amity company for an "American sole proprietorship"?

60,551 baht including government fees was quoted about a week ago

 for a sole proprietorship..

[TravelerEastWest]

Plus you need a notarized form - $50? at the US consulate?

[seancbk]

On 9/2/2018 at 7:59 AM, ricklev said:

On 9/2/2018 at 7:52 AM, ubonjoe said:

You could form a company under the amity treaty but you would not be able to be involved in the day to day operation of the company without a work permit. You could be a owner/director without a work permit to attend meetings and etc under the new rules.

According to Sunbelt, you can now be fully involved in the day to day operation and openly perform any kind of work depending on the company objectives without a work permit and on a retirement visa (or a variety of other long term visas). 

 

Perhaps if the 'day to day operations' you were doing amounted to only meetings where your staff (managers etc) provided you with updates on how the business was going.   

These new rules will introduce a fair amount of 'grey area' for real businesses, where the 'owner' may now be on a retirement extension and therefore not have a work permit, and can claim they just sit in on meetings but don't actually do any 'work'.

[FritsSikkink]

I think you need to look at 2 things, the labor law allowing you to work (labor office) and your retirement visa allowing you to work (immigration law).  

[ricklev]

26 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I think you need to look at 2 things, the labor law allowing you to work (labor office) and your retirement visa allowing you to work (immigration law).  

?  Very true!

[Media1]

On 9/2/2018 at 8:11 AM, ricklev said:

Thanks Ubonjoe. I know!  It's definitely not my misunderstanding.  I spent a half hour with Greg, the owner of Sunbelt last week who patiently endured my skepticism.   Read the link or click on their ad.   https://www.sunbeltasia.com/us-amity-treaty-thailand    

 

My current lawyer simply said it wasn't true.  I asked him if he contacted the Ministry of Labor about it.  His answer was no he did not.

 

I sent an email to the person who deals with the Amity Treaty at Commercial Services at the US Embassy.  They had absolutely no interest in whether it was true or not.  Not their job........   

 

The recent interview with the head of the Phuket labor office made me wonder if it might just be true as I didn't believe that work permit holders could now work anywhere for anyone either and he confirms that.  Unrelated, but just as unlikely......

 

Yes you can own I business and give orders 

But can't work that's it. Not rocket science here

[ricklev]

2 hours ago, Media1 said:

Yes you can own I business and give orders 

But can't work that's it. Not rocket science here

? And so it is and shall forever be.....

[DJ54]

Was going to read through it but hoping to give up that work thing...

[action]

If owing, attending meetings and giving directions to staff is all that's allowed without a work permit, it would seem nothing has changed.    Hasn't that always been the case?

[overherebc]

7 minutes ago, action said:

If owing, attending meetings and giving directions to staff is all that's allowed without a work permit, it would seem nothing has changed.    Hasn't that always been the case?

Yes.

[timendres]

2 hours ago, action said:

If owing, attending meetings and giving directions to staff is all that's allowed without a work permit, it would seem nothing has changed.    Hasn't that always been the case?

From what I have read, the big change here is that an American owning an Amity company in Thailand can easily obtain a Non-B visa from a US embassy/consulate, simply by stating they are traveling to Thailand to "manage" their company, attend meetings, etc. This does not mean that they can be here full-time on a "pseudo WP-based" extension of stay without a WP. There is no extension of stay based on owning an Amity company. So for those wishing to travel to Thailand frequently, and stay for extended periods (say a 90 day Non-B as opposed to the 30 day arrival) without the normal tourist visa "frequency issues", this is a new alternative. Frankly, the cost of setting up such a company, and the cost of operating it, are likely to make the Thai Elite visa look attractive.

[HLover]

Sunbelt's website States that: attending meetings, giving lectures and other activities are permitted.  Did anyone else see this?

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, HLover said:

Sunbelt's website States that: attending meetings, giving lectures and other activities are permitted. 

That has been the rule for some time now. 

[HLover]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been the rule for some time now. 

Thank you, I enjoy reading your well-educated posts. It's good to have at least a member that is well-versed in the topics they reply to.

[ElephantEgo]

Hi anymore updates on this? Or the verdict is that day to day operations are not included?

 

I also saw their advertisement and was surprised...

[ricklev]

Well, Greg has sold Sunbelt.  I just called, out of curiosity, and they have substantially backed off what he told me.  They still insist the Labor Office said no work permit is needed, but concede it's a bit more of a theoretical defense then a policy and Immigration is not currently on board with the idea.