Disputing Condo sm2 size

[AUSSIE BOB]

Hi all,

I just want to get some feedback about how a condo is measured in square metres when purchasing. I bought a new condo in Phuket and on all the glossy advertisement the condo is suppose to be 49sm2 in size. I had a copy of the floor plan with measurements before we moved in and I went and did all the furniture shopping so everything would be ready for our moving day. Problem was when all the furniture was installed it appears smaller than in all the pictures. So I did the obvious thing and check the floor plan and started doing my own measurements and found a 10% variation in the internal measurements. My condo is only 44sm2, so we are not talking a huge area but when in a small condo, it makes a big difference, so I went to the developer and told him what I found and he told me the original advertised size is an approximate and the entire building is surveyed at completion and that is the true size we take to the lands department for applying tax and transfer fees. So I checked my contract and found the condo recorded as being 48sm2 and that is the size all taxes were worked out on at transfer. 

My question is now that I have this 10% discrepancy, do I have any legal right to go back to the lands office and have everything amended and then seek compensation for all the fees, taxes and a percent of the purchase price back? The yearly municipal tax will also be affected and any resale if I go that path. 

Can anybody suggest a good surveyor in Phuket that I can get a second survey done, so I have an official report to take to Lands office? or do I just suck it up and accept I have been scammed?

I know if I was in any western country I would have a strong case to pursue but here I am not so confident. 

thanks in advance for your ideas and help.

[BobBKK]

Balcony?  often forgotten but always counted in the M2

[Pilotman]

Ha, welcome to Thailand. Take everything with a pinch of salt. Condo, and indeed house sizing,  is random at best. The only true measurement you will get here is on land surveyed by the Land Department by GPS and registered .  The condo we bought has two sizes on its details,  one with the two balconies included and one without.  Our sizing came with a floor plan size that omits fitting out, so its not living space. Building standards are not up to western levels, with the possible exception of high end  Bangkok hotels, so the build will not resemble the plans to any really accurate degree.  You have what you have my fiend. 

[ezzra]

Sometimes they includes parking space or the area in front of the entrance door and balconies and as well as the thickness of the walls, you should be 100% sure as to what is in the contract, and if you still unhappy, bring a freelance surveyor and ask them to measure the space exactly and issue you with an official finding of their measurement and with that you go and the developer and put it to him that unless he reimburse you, you will take it to court, i did just than many years ago and won....

[Pilotman]

4 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Sometimes they includes parking space or the area in front of the entrance door and balconies and as well as the thickness of the walls, you should be 100% sure as to what is in the contract, and if you still unhappy, bring a freelance surveyor and ask them to measure the space exactly and issue you with an official finding of their measurement and with that you go and the developer and put it to him that unless he reimburse you, you will take it to court, i did just than many years ago and won....

For 7 sqm??? Challenge it by all means,  but legal action for the size of a closet and you can bet the farm that the developer will have a reasonable explanation that will stand up legally , at least here in LOS.  As I say, you have what you have. 

[AUSSIE BOB]

Thanks to those comments and feedback so far, Yes I did include the balcony and the small step-in at the front door. I was very forgiving on my measurements and did not subtract the areas where support beams encroach into the bedroom and balcony, so the variation could be slightly higher but round figures are still 10% or better. I am considering going the independant surveyor route because if they are wrong with my condo, I am sure they will be wrong with most of the condos here as I have been in a few and they all appear on the smaller size. For now I will only focus on my condo and if I get a win from the developer I might just walk away happy with a partial refund.

[Pattaya46]

53 minutes ago, AUSSIE BOB said:

// Yes I did include the balcony and the small step-in at the front door. //

 

You must also include the area used by your internal walls, and your part of the external walls.

Even a small condo can have 30 meters of walls, so maybe 3 sqm of un-liveable area.

[Peterw42]

OP, dont forget your ongoing condo fees will be based on the larger amount, and its so much "per sqm" per month. Over months and years that will add up.

There is usually an accurate drawing and a precise m2 figure in the Chanote. What does the drawing / chanote show ? It should show measurements in millimetres/centimetres. (and possibly measurement to a mid point of common walls etc)

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Peterw42

[scubascuba3]

Another reason to not buy off plan

[murraynz]

6 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Another reason to not buy off plan

correct, correct, correct....  however, i think in most buildings anywhere{certainly in nz}--the square metres DOES  include internal and external walls--also the balcony-in thailand...

therefore what you have been charged for, is probably fairly accurate..

[xtrnuno41]

DOnt know who your neighbours are, but your condo is a new property. You could inquire with your neighbours, fellow condoers, do they have the same problem. If yes, you can all form a group and as group take the action for court. Together you are stronger and of course all court,lawyer costs are divided with the group. 7m2 is a significant miss of space. 

[how241]

They measure from the lines on the blueprints and Not the actual inside space so you lose a little off the 4 walls...They don't count the thickness of the walls.

[scubascuba3]

correct, correct, correct....  however, i think in most buildings anywhere{certainly in nz}--the square metres DOES  include internal and external walls--also the balcony-in thailand...
therefore what you have been charged for, is probably fairly accurate..

I guess my point is you can't verify it until its built and too late

[Delight]

 There are always 2 seperate dimensions in relation to condos

Dimension 1 -This is the area that the condo occupies in the building.

It is the multiple of A x B

A is the dimension between the mid point of the columns

B Is the dimension from the outside of the corridor located wall and the far side of the balcony wall

 Dimension 2

The area as specified on the Condominium Title Deed. This area will always be a  smaller area than Dimension 1

As far as the land office is concerned the only dimension that counts is Dimension 2

The maintenance fees should be based on Dimension 2

So why is dimension 2 smaller than dimension 1

This is because certain features of condos  cannot be owned by the co -owners-my view.

The following is based on my attempt to define Dimension 2 in relation to my condo.

Therefore I do not own :

Any part of the columns

The balcony wall

The corridor wall

 

I accurately measured these features and removed this total from Dimension 1.

The  nett answer precisely came to Dimension 2

I can  only assume that ownership is forbidden on certain features. The logic being -if I own them -then I can-in theory -remove them

When I purchased my condo Dimension 1 was used by the developer.

I still think that, that system of pricing is fair.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Delight

[ToddinChonburi]

Measure by the outside of hallway wall to the outside edge of balcony.  you can drill into the walls as long as you do not damage them.  you can remodel the inside .

I put a new kitchen in and the office had to sign off on the plan. They inspected after work.

[sandy102uk]

I purchased a condo off plan several years ago and the price was based on the advertised area of the condo. The purchase contract stated that  the final area may increase or decrease based on the the Land Office calculation. When I received the ownership document the final area was less than that advertised and I contacted the developer to claim the appropriate refund. Eventually I received the refund in full including the small overpayment on sinking fund and maintenance. 

[newnative]

     My partner and I had the exact same experience as you with one of our condos.  We used the dimensions of the model unit and we ordered a large sofa before the condo was finished.  When we moved into the condo, it seemed smaller than the model.  The model was still available so we measured the model living room and found our condo living room was about 15 centimeters shorter than the model.  Luckily our sofa still fit but it was close--and you are so right that with a small condo every centimeter counts.  Needless to say, we learned our lesson and don't buy any furniture until we have the exact dimensions of the actual condo.

     With another new condo we bought, when construction was finished and the condo measured, it turned out that the condo was actually more than a square meter larger than what was on the sales contract.  I thought we would just get the extra space as part of the original price we paid for the condo but, nope.  We had to come up with an extra 120,000 baht to pay for the extra space.  Which may not seem like a big deal but we were tight on money at the time and had carefully figured that X amount was what we needed to have, only to find that we needed to come up with Y amount.  In your case, if your condo is actually smaller than the contract size, and you price was based on an amount per sqm., you should have gotten a reduction in the sales price.

    4 sqm. is actually quite a big discrepancy--and makes a big difference in a small space.  For example, Lumpini has a new project in Bangkok, Lumpini Suites, with studios of 23 sqm.  But, by adding just 4 sqm., they are able to jump you up to a 1 bedroom unit with a slightly bigger living room and a separate, private bedroom.  When you compare the side-by-side studio to the 1 bedroom, there's a big difference--with just 4 sqm.   

     

[Destiny1990]

With a new development u have about 12 months time to file a complaint for restitution for the sqm u claim to miss..

Your S&P agreement will say your sqm amount. have it remeasured if it is wrong then sue the developer with the other residents..

You will win and get financial compensation.  

[inThailand]

The title deed specifies the dimensions and total sqms. Never seen a sales contract here that addresses what happens when the sqms differs from the off plan price. The sqms should also have been checked when you got the title deed and made the final payment.

[pipeflaw]

Had the same problem and, because I had custom teak furniture made for the unit based on the floor plans provided by the developer, my dining room table and chairs would not fit.  Turned out that only one unit in the project had the same interior space (including the deck) as promised in the purchase contracts.  The discrepancies varied from 5% short to 14% short.  The developer refused to refund any money and tried to set up bogus defenses.  The buyers (including myself) had to file individual claims against the developer and could not join the lawsuit filed by the HOA against the developer for construction defects. 

 

The court ordered mediation with a law professor during which we learned that before the Land Office would register the project it required laser shootings of each unit by its own people and those correct measurements were incorporated into the registration.  The mediator sided with the owners and, later, so did the judge.  The developers agreed to a structured settlement which included a 10% down payment and quarterly payments thereafter, with accrued interest.  The developer defaulted by making no further payments and we are chasing them for collection.