Minimum requirement for solar power plant in Thailand?

[billd766]

At one time I was looking to build a 10 Kw system and looking at the figures published it would come in at around 600,000 baht. Going on 2017 electricity bills for the year of 52,000 baht it will take 12 years to get my money back, less any input to the PEA grid.

 

Say 10 years, by which time I may be looking at replacing the batteries which would be a large expense, so perhaps 15 years+/- to get my money back, by which time I would be looking at replacing some or all of the solar panels.

 

With the efficiency of the solar panels at around 30% it really isn't cost effective in my mind. Of course if the cost of electricity rises a lot then in the long term it may be worth it.

[Krabi King]

2 hours ago, Muhendis said:

You are quite right up to a point. The electricity supply is subsidised by the government by quite a generous 50%. in other words the price is normally 8 Baht/unit but households only pay 4 Baht/unit. If you have a setup which has enough power for all your needs 24hrs/day then it will pay for itself in about 12 years at the non subsidised rate and 24 years at the subsidised rate. So if you are not in the government scheme you would be better off with your own power supply but if you are on government subsidised power then you would break even and feel good because you are a bit more green than others. Also you are not so likely to enjoy interruptions in power.

I can say this from experience because when I built my house some considerable distance from the last post in the village, I had to have a temporary/construction supply (non subsidised) and here I am 7 years later still with a temporary but unused supply entirely reliant on that big light in the sky.

Same dilemma here... Our yet to be developed land is about 250m from the last pole. Do we have poles and cables put in or go for independant solar? 

I haven't looked at final costs yet for either, but have been told that poles and a possible transformer will be costly too.

[anon2736434]

Where are you guys getting these efficiency ratings of 30-40% for panels ??? 12-17 is more realistic especially with the Chinese panels sold most places, and thats under optimum conditions. Another thing unless you are buying tier 1 grade panels such as kyocera etc. you are not going to get even 15 years (10 if your lucky) before they degrade either in the silicon or cell protection construction aspect, and try getting a warranty claim on a 10 year old chinese panel after the company is long gone or changed names 20 times.

https://news.energysage.com/what-are-the-most-efficient-solar-panels-on-the-market/

[Muhendis]

7 hours ago, Krabi King said:

Same dilemma here... Our yet to be developed land is about 250m from the last pole. Do we have poles and cables put in or go for independant solar? 

I haven't looked at final costs yet for either, but have been told that poles and a possible transformer will be costly too.

Not too much of a dilemma for me because my house is 1km from the last post. In effect I have an extremely long and thick (25mm^2) extension lead from my meter to the house. Early in the morning when folks in the village rouse themselves and switch on lights and TV, there is quite a drop in voltage for them. So before my house gets it's power the voltage will have dropped from 220 down to 200. Switching on my 400W toaster will drop it down to 180'ish and the toaster fails this drop being caused by the 1km cable losses. Something else to be aware of is the effect of any nearby lightening strike. The absence in the feed from the village of a lighting conductor/earthed cable will result in any EMP potentially causing damage to unprotected connected equipment.

The cost of concrete posts could be as much as 10,000 Baht each and these will be every 20 -25 metres (100,000 Baht for 250M). Unless you can get the government to pay for it, that alone is a substantial proportion of the cost of solar. I used a combination of trees and bamboo posts for mine.

[Sydebolle]

On 9/30/2018 at 3:28 PM, BritManToo said:

No need for any of that, if you just want to 'ease' your electricity bill.

Grid Tie inverter (5kbht) + solar panel (5kbht) then just plug it into the nearest mains socket.

No limit on how many you plug in, no need to tell anyone (Shhhhhhh)

Can you name a supplier for such equipment? I looked and found it very confusing, to say the least - thanks in advance ???? 

[Krabi King]

24 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

Not too much of a dilemma for me because my house is 1km from the last post. In effect I have an extremely long and thick (25mm^2) extension lead from my meter to the house. Early in the morning when folks in the village rouse themselves and switch on lights and TV, there is quite a drop in voltage for them. So before my house gets it's power the voltage will have dropped from 220 down to 200. Switching on my 400W toaster will drop it down to 180'ish and the toaster fails this drop being caused by the 1km cable losses. Something else to be aware of is the effect of any nearby lightening strike. The absence in the feed from the village of a lighting conductor/earthed cable will result in any EMP potentially causing damage to unprotected connected equipment.

The cost of concrete posts could be as much as 10,000 Baht each and these will be every 20 -25 metres (100,000 Baht for 250M). Unless you can get the government to pay for it, that alone is a substantial proportion of the cost of solar. I used a combination of trees and bamboo posts for mine.

Wow! 1 km of cable. Amazing!

Yes, the can be quite an investment already. And then the possible transformer is another few 100k... Food for thought in the next few years until we finalize our plans. And solar will improve and get more affordable, I am sure.

Thanks!

[anon2736434]

10000 baht for concrete poles ? He is not building a power grid for a city. Dont know where you are getting those prices but way too much.

[anon2736434]

Another question I must ask where does this subsidy for electricity come from people keep talking about ?? Just because you pay more for a temporary meter and hookup for new construction doesn't mean they are subsidizing the standard rate of 4.xx baht per KWH thats just the cost of doing business.

[impulse]

46 minutes ago, Krabi King said:

Yes, the can be quite an investment already. And then the possible transformer is another few 100k... Food for thought in the next few years until we finalize our plans. And solar will improve and get more affordable, I am sure.

Thanks!

 

And that's one of the biggest issues with solar now.  If it's a discretionary install, you're always better to wait a year because the costs keep dropping.  Probably more than the amount you'd have saved by installing today instead of in a year.

 

Of course, if it's off grid and you need power, you suck it up and spend the money today.  And eventually, tech will mature, economics of scale will peak, costs will bottom out, and inflation will say it's cheaper to install this year than next. But we're not there yet.  

 

[Muhendis]

52 minutes ago, Notagain said:

10000 baht for concrete poles ? He is not building a power grid for a city. Dont know where you are getting those prices but way too much.

 

I agree that's a bit pricy  but that's what I was quoted some years ago. Please amend the price if you have better information

 

29 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Another question I must ask where does this subsidy for electricity come from people keep talking about ?? Just because you pay more for a temporary meter and hookup for new construction doesn't mean they are subsidizing the standard rate of 4.xx baht per KWH thats just the cost of doing business.

 

The normal price for electricity is approximately 8 Baht/unit. The government has a majority holding in PEA and reduces the price for consumers. If certain criteria can be met then the government can approve and pay for the installation. The supply of electricity to the consumer then comes at the subsidised rate.

[anon2736434]

Never had a subsidized rate from the gov. always been around 4 baht/kwh. I dont know where you are getting this idea from, if they were I wouldnt have a fuel surcharge included on my bill. They used to waive your bill if it was under 300 baht in a month with a 5/15 meter but that is the only subsidy I have ever seen. Again that 8 baht you pay for new construction is to pay for temp service costs the 4 baht you pay after permanent meter, poles wire etc. is in is not a subsidized rate. The MEA/PEA is owned by the gov. thats why the service sucks so bad and electricity costs more here than electricity in my home country in which you also pay a higher rate for temp. service hookup.

[Muhendis]

57 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Never had a subsidized rate from the gov. always been around 4 baht/kwh. I dont know where you are getting this idea from, if they were I wouldnt have a fuel surcharge included on my bill. They used to waive your bill if it was under 300 baht in a month with a 5/15 meter but that is the only subsidy I have ever seen. Again that 8 baht you pay for new construction is to pay for temp service costs the 4 baht you pay after permanent meter, poles wire etc. is in is not a subsidized rate. The MEA/PEA is owned by the gov. thats why the service sucks so bad and electricity costs more here than electricity in my home country in which you also pay a higher rate for temp. service hookup.

Please take a look at pages 10, 11 and 12 of this:

 https://www.iisd.org/gsi/sites/default/files/ffs_thailand_czguide.pdf 

 

 

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

Can you name a supplier for such equipment? I looked and found it very confusing, to say the least - thanks in advance ???? 

300w panel 8,000bht

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/325-4bb-i190238297-s240333742.html

600w grid tie inverter 3,000bht (can connect to 2x 300w solar panels)

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/suoer-grid-tie-inverter-gti-d600b-600-600-650-vmp-35-39-v-voc-42-45v-i225187753-s344133681.html

 

Homepro were selling 300w solar panels for 5,000bht last month.

[anon2736434]

Page 10 from your post. Where does it say anything about giving subsides to the general population ??? Your 8 Baht claim is false. This report is also from 2013. Again they used to waive payment if your bill was below 300 baht/month on a 5/15 meter but have phased that program out. The 4.xx baht i and every other homeowner ( I know haha) pay here is the market rate set by egat. No subsidies here. Thats why you get a fuel surcharge on your bill, they aint giving nothing away !! 

 

electricity is subsidized through the provision of free or half-price electricity to low-consuming households (assumed to be underprivileged). electricity tariffs to other consumers may also be below the costs incurred by the state-owned electricity Generating authority of thailand (eGat), the sole distributor of electricity in thailand. the government can require eGat to carry losses when retail prices are not sufficient to cover the cost of inputs such as fuel and electricity purchased from other providers. the main inputs to thailand’s electricity generation—natural gas and lignite—may also be provided at below-market rates.3

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, Notagain said:

Page 10 from your post.

My post suggests reading pages 10, 11 and 12. Try again 

[anon2736434]

Okay you are correct the gov of thailand is paying for 50% of all the electricity used in thailand. Wow how generous can they be I am going to send egat a large box of chicken broth with a beautiful ribbon on it today ! Then tomorrow just to FEEL GOOD about being green I am going to go out and spend every last baht I have setting up a money losing solar system because I will sleep better at night knowing my bank account is empty but china is still building a new coal fired power plant every week to make up for my GREEN HAPPINESS.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Notagain said:

Where are you guys getting these efficiency ratings of 30-40% for panels ??? 12-17 is more realistic especially with the Chinese panels sold most places, and thats under optimum conditions. Another thing unless you are buying tier 1 grade panels such as kyocera etc. you are not going to get even 15 years (10 if your lucky) before they degrade either in the silicon or cell protection construction aspect, and try getting a warranty claim on a 10 year old chinese panel after the company is long gone or changed names 20 times.

https://news.energysage.com/what-are-the-most-efficient-solar-panels-on-the-market/

 

Just a thought following your comment.

 

Where and how do you dispose of old solar panels.

 

Say one panel costs 5,000 baht new, what would you say would be a realistic salvage price? The local guy who collects the rest of the salvage would have no idea.

[anon2736434]

If you are buying them to use the first thing to check is the condition of the glass, is it starting to degrade ? losing clarity-starting to lose its light transmission ability ? it should be clear like a clean window. Next check the frame and sealant not only the frame but on the cells themselves, look for any cracking in the cell sealant. Moisture contamination is a killer for your cells and connections Most important load test it, is it putting out its rated voltage and amperage. Depending on its age it will lose a little but shouldnt be much if it was a quality panel to begin with. To be honest for me they would be giveaways unless they were less than 2-3 years old discounting a quality panel from a reputable company which should be still in good shape after 5-10 years. Even then Amorn electronics has the 72 cell 3XX watt panels for 4800 baht, yeah they are cheap panels but Im guessing you could get 10 years out of them if you took care of them.

[billd766]

14 minutes ago, Notagain said:

If you are buying them to use the first thing to check is the condition of the glass, is it starting to degrade ? losing clarity-starting to lose its light transmission ability ? it should be clear like a clean window. Next check the frame and sealant not only the frame but on the cells themselves, look for any cracking in the cell sealant. Moisture contamination is a killer for your cells and connections Most important load test it, is it putting out its rated voltage and amperage. Depending on its age it will lose a little but shouldnt be much if it was a quality panel to begin with. To be honest for me they would be giveaways unless they were less than 2-3 years old discounting a quality panel from a reputable company which should be still in good shape after 5-10 years. Even then Amorn electronics has the 72 cell 3XX watt panels for 4800 baht, yeah they are cheap panels but Im guessing you could get 10 years out of them if you took care of them.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of what do you do with the old panels (and batteries come to that) when they come to the end of their working life. I shouldn't think that the normal salvage people would know what to do with the panels and I think the batteries are not the same as old car batteries and harder to dispose of.

[anon2736434]

They will strip off the metal frames and trash the rest. Glass, silicon, backing materials nothing really toxic there. The batteries are just going to be deep cycle lead-acid type so easy for them to sell for recycling. Just dont expect much in the way of environmentally friendly recycling here, the ring road around here is a major dumping ground for most everything, fortunately there are a lot of people that dig thru the piles of trash and knock them down a little, then the gov comes along every so often and buries or pushes them out of sight and the process begins again. Id like to find a bunch of the glass panels for a greenhouse though.

[Muhendis]

There have been great strides made in improving the efficiency of solar panels but top whack comes in at around 22%. Normally a solar panel would be expected to last for 20 years but it's power output would have declined linearly to 80% of the value when new. There are now panels made by LG which will perform for 25 years and run at a higher ambient but the output power is still not greater than 22%. Recycling these panels is not practical although as has been said the aluminium frames could be useful for something. the backing plastic, solar cells and toughened front glass are bonded together rather like the laminated windscreen on a car. So like Notagain said "They will strip off the metal frames and trash the rest. Glass, silicon, backing materials nothing really toxic there." Perhaps they could be ground down and used to rebuild Pattaya beach...........

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, Muhendis said:

Please take a look at pages 10, 11 and 12 of this:

 https://www.iisd.org/gsi/sites/default/files/ffs_thailand_czguide.pdf 

Thanks for sharing.

 

The electricity prices to users are at page 34 in that pdf-file. The normal (2012) price is around 4 baht per kWh – there are several levels of normal price – and temporary power is around 7 baht.

 

I think you confuse the subsidized electricity for poor people with the difference between normal prices (depending of usage), and the higher, almost double, temporary power price, for example paid during a building construction period using a temporary meter...????

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Notagain said:

They will strip off the metal frames and trash the rest. Glass, silicon, backing materials nothing really toxic there. The batteries are just going to be deep cycle lead-acid type so easy for them to sell for recycling. Just dont expect much in the way of environmentally friendly recycling here, the ring road around here is a major dumping ground for most everything, fortunately there are a lot of people that dig thru the piles of trash and knock them down a little, then the gov comes along every so often and buries or pushes them out of sight and the process begins again. Id like to find a bunch of the glass panels for a greenhouse though.

 

The reason I asked is because I live out in rural Khampaeng Phet and our salvage guy has his wife and a couple of kids on a samlor and he comes around perhaps once a month. He would take most things.

 

If I was to go solar I would be looking for perhaps 40 or 50 panels to give me 10 kw plus the required amount of batteries, inverters, cabling etc. The most units I have used going back to mid 2016 was 45 units a day. I think that the next 3 or 4 years will become drier and hotter so I try to look a bit into the future.

 

If I look at 4,500 as a monthly average my electricity bill would cost 54,000 pa and a 10 kw solar setup would cost IRO perhaps 500,000 and at the 10 year point the cost would be about balance out. Then I would be looking to start replacing the panels and batteries so I think that it is cheaper in the long run to leave it as it is and perhaps buy a cheapish standby generator to cover the power outages.

 

I am 74 now and in another 10 years I may have died off leaving my wife with a solar system that she probably wouldn't understand and would have a big problem replacing and maintaining.

[anon2736434]

This thai solar company http://solarcellcenter.com/en/ has been around awhile and has 10 KW grid tie systems for 500K baht. But the inverter only has a 5 yr warranty and the panels ? i dont get the warranty

• 10 Year Product Warranty 
• 25 Year Linear Power Warranty

 ??? Im guessing 10 as most cheaper panels are. But again I havent seen or heard much positive feedback anywhere that the pea will even let you grid tie. I read a recent article where they are only going to pay 4.xx baht for your power now not the 6 or 7 that was agreed upon a couple of years ago. They have off grid packages but no prices (look out) and they only advertise lead acid deep cycle batteries. Personally I think in your case an on demand generator would be the way to go. 

[Muhendis]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

I am 74 now and in another 10 years I may have died off leaving my wife with a solar system that she probably wouldn't understand and would have a big problem replacing and maintaining.

Therein lies the dilemma. Solar power is a long term investment. If you plan to die before the break even date then you lose your money which could otherwise have been more pleasurably spent. As I mentioned before if you have a cheap reliable electricity supply, there is really only the warm feeling of being greener than others that makes a good argument for solar plus bragging rights of course. As far as wifey is concerned she would probably use the solar 'til it falls over then carry on with PEA if available.

[impulse]

23 hours ago, Muhendis said:

On 10/2/2018 at 8:01 PM, billd766 said:

I am 74 now and in another 10 years I may have died off leaving my wife with a solar system that she probably wouldn't understand and would have a big problem replacing and maintaining.

Therein lies the dilemma. Solar power is a long term investment. If you plan to die before the break even date then you lose your money which could otherwise have been more pleasurably spent. As I mentioned before if you have a cheap reliable electricity supply, there is really only the warm feeling of being greener than others that makes a good argument for solar plus bragging rights of course. As far as wifey is concerned she would probably use the solar 'til it falls over then carry on with PEA if available.

 

Partially true, but all the payout calculations shown here seem to be based on today's electric price.  If the price of oil and gas skyrockets, the payout could be significantly shorter.  Hedging against energy price spikes is another benefit of being energy independent.  If (when?) the price does go up, there may be a long queue to get solar...

 

Of course, it could go the other way, too.  Like it did in 2014.

 

 

[Muhendis]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Partially true, but all the payout calculations shown here seem to be based on today's electric price.  If the price of oil and gas skyrockets, the payout could be significantly shorter.  Hedging against energy price spikes is another benefit of being energy independent.  If (when?) the price does go up, there may be a long queue to get solar...

 

Of course, it could go the other way, too.  Like it did in 2014.

 

 

Yes indeed prices will go up. They always do over the long term, but it would be difficult to predict by how much, so payback calculations are best based on current prices etc. Also technology is forever creeping forwards which could make tomorrows installation cheaper and longer lasting. My idea, which I think others have also had, is that all new house builds should have a grid tie solar installation included as standard which would make for a distributed power system. Cost of installation would be swallowed up in the price of the house and marketing of the house would include "free electricity".

[anon2736434]

If you raise the price of my house purchase to pay for a solar system add on how is that free electricity ??? Sounds like a good deal for the builder and solar system seller to me but not the homeowner. I prefer to live in a free choice society and not have others tell me whats good for me or will make me feel better.

[Muhendis]

59 minutes ago, Notagain said:

If you raise the price of my house purchase to pay for a solar system add on how is that free electricity ??? Sounds like a good deal for the builder and solar system seller to me but not the homeowner. I prefer to live in a free choice society and not have others tell me whats good for me or will make me feel better.

True enough. There is never something for nothing in this world, but selling a house with solar already fitted might appeal to quite a few. 

[anon2736434]

What about the depreciation of the system when the owner wants to sell. who picks up the cost of that ? Or say the buyer doesnt want the upkeep or look of the system on their new home. I understand you are a big believer in solar but lets face it if it was such a great deal everyone would have it. The only reason it sells in my home country is because of the tax incentives or the owner wants to be green and feel good about it.