BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, jimn said:

I ploughed through all 51 pages in case I missed anything and just in case the people on TV whose views I trust posted anything new. The fact that these people didnt UJ etc tells us that all 51 pages so far are pure speculation and all that exists is the original info posted by Jonathan. Clarification will obviously follow in a few days either from the British Embassy or Thai Immigration. Because at the moment its as clear as mud, other than the 800k option. Proving 65k monthly income no one knows.

How did you mange to do that? I'm not even going to try to read 51 pages. But I do understand what you mean from the few nose dives that I've made into this morass!

 

One thing really bothers me. This whole business has a built in delayed fuse of around 8 months before the bomb actually goes off.

 

That's because all those who rely on the embassy letter for extension, will scrabble to get their letters before the cut off date of 12th December, timing their applications to ensure that the letter will be still valid when the renewal; app is due.

 

So we are unlikely to get any serious feedback on the impact of this decision until Jul/Aug time, next year, which is when my next extension app is due, but I will just miss the cut-off.

 

As this appears to be an Embassy decision, I would imagine that the Thai immigration would not feel under any obligation to bend their rules to suit this decision, especially if it is transpires that it is only the British Embassy. I wonder where the suggestion came from that we will now have show the income via bank statements. Did the embassy suggest that or did it come Thai immigration?

 

Clarification is really needed here, before the bomb goes off!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Moonlover

[blackhorse]

Please read my post and understand before replying, if you cannot read english i will try my best to translate to your native language.
 
I mentioned nothing about the embassy changing any laws. 

"There must have been changes for them to act"

Your sidestepping. I asked you to provide a link to the "must" changed laws on their website.

You need help in comprehension? I can do that. [emoji16]

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, VYCM said:

Doesn't want us here, please explain.

 

they dont want deadbeats here, makes sense to me.

Well it would, wouldn't it. Posting nonsense doesn't help anyone on here.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Why are some members always trying to find problems when there is none? 

 

There is nothing wrong or illegal in buying condos in Thailand and contracting with a Thai rental company who will take in charge the full rental work. Your only "work" is to check your bank account every month 

 

I don't see why people doing so should not be authorised to use this income as proof of revenues for their extension. Until today it was no problem.

No problem at all, as long as you pay tax on the income.

[Expattaff1308]

If this instructions have come from the FCO here is the details to contact them.

Jeremy Hunt

Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs 

[email protected]

[Expattaff1308]

My response from and reply to the British Embassy Bkk.

Thank you for your email. I apologise for the delay in replying.

 

Unfortunately, the British Embassy has decided to cease providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income for the purpose of obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. We are stopping this service because Thai Immigration want us to verify your income and we are unable to do that. You should now show that you have the income required by Thai Immigration by transferring the minimum funds needed for your visa into a Thai bank account.

 

We will stop providing this service on 01 January 2019.

 

My Reply.

Thank you however Immigration has yet to inform anyone of what is acceptable as proof of income except for the 400/800.000 in a Bank account.

I always used my pensions and am confused as the verification required as I cannot see The Civil Service Pensions and the DWP falsifying amounts to satisfy my needs for Thai Immigration.

May I ask what the Embassy is doing to negotiate with the Thai authorities to find a comprise for monthly income and the combination of monthly income & cash in bank? 

I trust you are still actively acting on our behalf.

I accept you have mentioned on your site bank statements are admissible however no one from Immigration has confirmed this to date and those UK expats who have been in touch with their immigration offices have been informed it must be thro an embassy letter.

Have you considered checking with other Embassies (USA, Aus etc) to see what they do and is their system acceptable whereas yours is not.

Some suggestions...

(1) Will the Immigration accept your letter if we provide Thai bank statements to you showing  yearly deposits totaling 800,000+ and averaging over the year to 65,000 a month.

(2) Will the Thai Immigration accept said bank statements?

(3) Will the Thai Immigration accept a Bank letter stating what has been suggested in para 1+2?

I trust you are still working on an acceptable solution to this problem with the Thai Immigration, and not as some have said dumping us without a thought.

 

 will keep you posted of any response.

[geoffbezoz]

To all British expat members on this forum.

 

I have just sent an email to the Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt MP.  Minister for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs asking for urgent clarification on this matter and enquiring as to whether or not the British Embassy, Bangkok are reviewing alternative options open to them in order to meet the acquirement that we supply an embassy confirmation of income letter to the Thai authorities when making an application for extension of stay due to marriage.  I will advise if or when I receive a reply.

 

It would be good if others members acted similarly.

 

His email address is;  '[email protected]'

[dayo202]

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

This hasn't been my experience.

 

I have a single method of transferring monies from my UK account to my Thai account.

 

I have a Halifax Clarity CC which incurs zero foreign charges. Whenever my Thai account is getting low, I go to my local branch of BKK Bank and withdraw the required amount (typically 70k baht) on my CC. 60k is then deposited into my BKK bank account and 10k goes into my wallet. Not only is it free and instant (SWIFT transfer take 3-5 days and costs £9.60) but I get the Visa exchange rate on the day. I've checked this a number of times and found the rate as good as, if not better than TT money exchanges and always beats BKK Bank's rate by a margin. It also has the added advantage that, probably because the BKK Bank uses a chip and pin machine to make the transaction, my UK bank treats this as a purchase rather than a cash withdrawal. Therefore, if I pay the CC balance in a timely manner, I incur no CC charges.

Hi Spidey,

I have a Halifax Clarity card and a BBL bank account also.

What method do you use to withdraw you 70k ?, ATM of do you go into bank and withdraw the money

over the counter ?.

Thanks in advance

[spambot]

3 hours ago, spambot said:

When applying for proof of income letter at the British Embassy - Can this be obtained with a personal visit to the Bangkok Embassy or is it only available from postal / email application? 

Whoops - I guess this has been well and truly covered - Posted this about 20 pages before reaching the coverage.

[imaderbyfan]

4 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Ask the British Consulate on 02 305 8333. 1 for English, 2 for Consular Services, 3 for Notary Services. They will tell you that it is the Thai Immigration who have changed the rule. They told me twice yesterday.

how can they say that when immigration rules have not changed?

 

[Cricky]

18 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

"There must have been changes for them to act"

Your sidestepping. I asked you to provide a link to the "must" changed laws on their website.

You need help in comprehension? I can do that.

 

19 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

27 minutes ago, VYCM said:

Please read my post and understand before replying, if you cannot read english i will try my best to translate to your native language.
 
I mentioned nothing about the embassy changing any laws. 

"There must have been changes for them to act"

Your sidestepping. I asked you to provide a link to the "must" changed laws on their website.

You need help in comprehension? I can do that.

Please find changes below.

 

"We are stopping this service because Thai Immigration want us to verify your income and we are unable to do that"

 

Let me know if you need translating.

[lamyai3]

5 hours ago, bbi1 said:

Have to visit many branches??? I went to one branch before and opened up an account within 10mins. Guess I was "lucky" ???????????????? Ok, that was a few years ago though. Maybe things have changed for late-2018.

This has been covered extensively in other threads - prior to around 2015 you could indeed open accounts in most places with minimal documentation, even on a tourist visa or visa exempt entry. 

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, dayo202 said:

Hi Spidey,

I have a Halifax Clarity card and a BBL bank account also.

What method do you use to withdraw you 70k ?, ATM of do you go into bank and withdraw the money

over the counter ?.

Thanks in advance

I go into the bank and withdraw the money over the counter. Saves on the bank's ATM charges (200 baht?) and appears on your CC statement as something other than "cash withdrawal". Doesn't seem to incur the same penalties as a cash withdrawal vis-à-vis interest charges. Not sure what the limit is but I have withdrawn 120k baht at one time with no problems.

 

Need your passport with you, of course.

[Peterw42]

31 minutes ago, VYCM said:

 

Please find changes below.

 

"We are stopping this service because Thai Immigration want us to verify your income and we are unable to do that"

 

Let me know if you need translating.

Thai immigration have always wanted embassies to verify income and have always accepted declarations/affidavits "written and signed by the citizen" and witnessed by embassies, (Australia, Canada etc) as that verification, nothing has changed in that regard.

 

British income letters are not declarations/affidavits, they are letters written by the embassy and signed by the embassy, they are not a declaration from the citizen. The British embassy is no longer signing "their name" to letters that state someone income. They dont state why they are unable , maybe they are unable to take on the liability of signing for peoples income.

Nothing has changed on the Thai requirements side of things only the British embassy side.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Peterw42

[evadgib]

36 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

My response from and reply to the British Embassy Bkk.

Thank you for your email. I apologise for the delay in replying.

 

Unfortunately, the British Embassy has decided to cease providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income for the purpose of obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa. We are stopping this service because Thai Immigration want us to verify your income and we are unable to do that. You should now show that you have the income required by Thai Immigration by transferring the minimum funds needed for your visa into a Thai bank account.

 

We will stop providing this service on 01 January 2019.

 

My Reply.

Thank you however Immigration has yet to inform anyone of what is acceptable as proof of income except for the 400/800.000 in a Bank account.

I always used my pensions and am confused as the verification required as I cannot see The Civil Service Pensions and the DWP falsifying amounts to satisfy my needs for Thai Immigration.

May I ask what the Embassy is doing to negotiate with the Thai authorities to find a comprise for monthly income and the combination of monthly income & cash in bank? 

I trust you are still actively acting on our behalf.

I accept you have mentioned on your site bank statements are admissible however no one from Immigration has confirmed this to date and those UK expats who have been in touch with their immigration offices have been informed it must be thro an embassy letter.

Have you considered checking with other Embassies (USA, Aus etc) to see what they do and is their system acceptable whereas yours is not.

Some suggestions...

(1) Will the Immigration accept your letter if we provide Thai bank statements to you showing  yearly deposits totaling 800,000+ and averaging over the year to 65,000 a month.

(2) Will the Thai Immigration accept said bank statements?

(3) Will the Thai Immigration accept a Bank letter stating what has been suggested in para 1+2?

I trust you are still working on an acceptable solution to this problem with the Thai Immigration, and not as some have said dumping us without a thought.

 

 will keep you posted of any response.

From page 21:

Quote

They explained some years ago to immigration that they (FCO) do not have the man hours or permission under data protection legislation to provide such tedious nonsense that serves no purpose whatsoever to the British Govt. If immigration cannot trust info from the likes of DWP/Pension providers direct they are going to have to get off their <deleted> and find a solution that actually works.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

I wasn't referring to the Foreign office I was referring to the way the Thais make us jump through hoops to remain here. I have 3 kids, do you think the Thai government gives a damn about them if I failed to come up with the requirement to stay here? Are there any appeal courts in Thailand to fight deportation? 

But that is not what this thread is about. Nothing from the Thai government has changed in regard to the requirements for a Marriage extension.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Expattaff1308]

29 minutes ago, imaderbyfan said:

how can they say that when immigration rules have not changed?

 

Done also written to the Embassy, FCO & Jeremy Hunt the Foreign Minister.

[Expattaff1308]

42 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

To all British expat members on this forum.

 

I have just sent an email to the Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt MP.  Minister for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs asking for urgent clarification on this matter and enquiring as to whether or not the British Embassy, Bangkok are reviewing alternative options open to them in order to meet the acquirement that we supply an embassy confirmation of income letter to the Thai authorities when making an application for extension of stay due to marriage.  I will advise if or when I receive a reply.

 

It would be good if others members acted similarly.

 

His email address is;  '[email protected]'

Done, also written to the Embassy and the FCO

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Done also written to the Embassy, FCO & Jeremy Hunt the Foreign Minister.

A better route might be to bombard their social media accounts with short, factual & non abusive suggestions to intervene; 'Squeaking Wheel' an' all that! ☺️ 

 

[ajnamoon]

So I have been  been following this post with interest 

We are still not sure why the British Embassy   are going to stop the pension letters  for immigration ,if its because they feel its too much paperwork for £50  or if it is the Thailand immigration  who insists on more proof of income .However if that is the case,and as the Immigration are cracking down on  foreigners with visas unable to support themselves

So how is it that you can still go to the Thai  Consulate  in Savvankhet  in Laos   and get a one year visa extension for retirement  or marriage   WITHOUT   any proof of income  ????  only difference  being you have to leave and re enter Thailand every 90 days    a friend of mine just returned a few days ago with his one year retirement  extension  no proof of income asked for  5000 baht fee  next day service 

[wgdanson]

48 minutes ago, imaderbyfan said:

how can they say that when immigration rules have not changed?

 

Ask them.

[gk10002000]

17 hours ago, ukrules said:

Does it really matter where the money comes from?

 

For example I wire myself 100k Baht or so each month depending on how much I think I will be spending, I'm pretty sure that would be acceptable just like if I wired myself an extra 800k and left it sitting in the account permanently.

 

I transfer this from my personal account which is back in the UK.

 

There was a very recent announcement about people being removed from the country within a month. The timing here is quite telling.

 

How can they make this happen (the one month thing)? The only way I can think of is that they hold the Embassy responsible for the costs of repatriation.

 

The embassy rightly won't want anything to do with that as it's a liability over which they have no control. So in order to continue issuing guarantee letters they would need to amke sure they're correct. That's not the job of an embassy.

 

I expect pretty much all embassies to follow suit in the coming months.

 

This is just my theory at the moment.

Well, it may matter where it comes from.  If the Thais are looking for some sort of monthly transfer in.... that will only be a history of what was done, it won't be an assertion of what will come in the future!  A pension in general is assumed to be ongoing.  If past history becomes the standard, then how can one show that upon arrival or first starting the visa!  They would not have any transfer history.  So many ways this can become very bad

[mfd101]

27 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Thai immigration have always wanted embassies to verify income and have always accepted declarations/affidavits "written and signed by the citizen" and witnessed by embassies, (Australia, Canada etc) as that verification, nothing has changed in that regard.

 

British income letters are not declarations/affidavits, they are letters written by the embassy and signed by the embassy, they are not a declaration from the citizen. The British embassy is no longer signing "their name" to letters that state someone income. They dont state why they are unable , maybe they are unable to take on the liability of signing for peoples income.

Nothing has changed on the Thai requirements side of things only the British embassy side.

Which rather suggests that the solution for the Brits would be simply to shift their own goalposts by going in to their Embassy with a statdec (affirmation, affidavit or whatever it's called in the British legal system) and ask them to witness your signature! If they provide that service (a Justice of the Peace service) for their citizens in any other matters - which involves no vouching for the contents of what's in the statdec - then there's theoretically no reason for them to refuse in the case of an income statement.

 

So you would be helping your bureaucracy to adapt to changing circumstances. One giant step forward for mankind!

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

14 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Business often amounts to "capital gains," depending on structure, but I get your point.  Key to this thread would be how pensions are treated.  Was this a recent-change? 

https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

[Peterw42]

I think the British embassy has dug itself into a hole and is now pulling the plug.

 

By offering more than the other embassies, who only witness declarations that their citizens write, they have taken the responsibility away from the citizen and onto themselves.

Australia, Canada, US etc dont care less what you write on your declaration and are not remotely responsible, you are committing the offence if its fraudulent (jail in Australia).

 

At some point in time the British Embassy has gone beyond witnessing declarations from citizens and actually looked at documents etc, then written and signed a letter verifying the income. They are then responsible for what the letter says, they signed it.

I think this has come from the embassy lawyer, who has realised the hole that has been dug.

 

It doesnt take much imagination to see the legal ramifications of, what turns out to be a fraudulent income letter, written and signed by the British Embassy.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Peterw42

[skatewash]

6 minutes ago, ajnamoon said:

So I have been  been following this post with interest 

We are still not sure why the British Embassy   are going to stop the pension letters  for immigration ,if its because they feel its too much paperwork for £50  or if it is the Thailand immigration  who insists on more proof of income .However if that is the case,and as the Immigration are cracking down on  foreigners with visas unable to support themselves

So how is it that you can still go to the Thai  Consulate  in Savvankhet  in Laos   and get a one year visa extension for retirement  or marriage   WITHOUT   any proof of income  ????  only difference  being you have to leave and re enter Thailand every 90 days    a friend of mine just returned a few days ago with his one year retirement  extension  no proof of income asked for  5000 baht fee  next day service 

Three reasons:
1.  The Thai Immigration offices are in the Immigration Bureau under the Royal Thai Police. 
2.  The Thai consulates and embassies outside of Thailand are in the Consular Affairs Department under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

3.  Bureaucracy.

[jimn]

1 hour ago, geoffbezoz said:

To all British expat members on this forum.

 

I have just sent an email to the Rt Hon Jeremy Hunt MP.  Minister for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs asking for urgent clarification on this matter and enquiring as to whether or not the British Embassy, Bangkok are reviewing alternative options open to them in order to meet the acquirement that we supply an embassy confirmation of income letter to the Thai authorities when making an application for extension of stay due to marriage.  I will advise if or when I receive a reply.

 

It would be good if others members acted similarly.

 

His email address is;  '[email protected]'

Thanks for the prompt. I have done so as well.

[Expattaff1308]

16 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think the British embassy has dug itself into a hole and is now pulling the plug.

 

By offering more than the other embassies, who only witness declarations that their citizens write, they have taken the responsibility away from the citizen and onto themselves.

Australia, Canada, US etc dont care less what you write on your declaration and are not remotely responsible, you are committing the offence if its fraudulent (jail in Australia).

 

At some point in time the British Embassy has gone beyond witnessing declarations from citizens and actually looked at documents etc, then written and signed a letter verifying the income. They are then responsible for what the letter says, they signed it.

I think this has come from the embassy lawyer, who has realised the hole that has been dug.

 

It doesnt take much imagination to see the legal ramifications of, what turns out to be a fraudulent income letter, written and signed by the British Embassy.

 

 

If that is the case then it should change it rather than dump it and leave us high and dry.

I always used my pensions and am confused as the verification required as I cannot see The Civil Service Pensions and the DWP falsifying amounts to satisfy my needs for Thai Immigration. If the Embassy cannot trust the DWP & Pension Providers then they need to find a system that they do trust.

[Peterw42]

44 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Which rather suggests that the solution for the Brits would be simply to shift their own goalposts by going in to their Embassy with a statdec (affirmation, affidavit or whatever it's called in the British legal system) and ask them to witness your signature! If they provide that service (a Justice of the Peace service) for their citizens in any other matters - which involves no vouching for the contents of what's in the statdec - then there's theoretically no reason for them to refuse in the case of an income statement.

 

So you would be helping your bureaucracy to adapt to changing circumstances. One giant step forward for mankind!

Yes, thats what all the other embassies do. 

 

As easy as below

 

 

Thats a 2,000 baht blue stamp, lol 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Peterw42

[Expattaff1308]

33 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Which rather suggests that the solution for the Brits would be simply to shift their own goalposts by going in to their Embassy with a statdec (affirmation, affidavit or whatever it's called in the British legal system) and ask them to witness your signature! If they provide that service (a Justice of the Peace service) for their citizens in any other matters - which involves no vouching for the contents of what's in the statdec - then there's theoretically no reason for them to refuse in the case of an income statement.

 

So you would be helping your bureaucracy to adapt to changing circumstances. One giant step forward for mankind!

If the Stat Dec remains acceptable to other Embassies & the Immigration Dept. one wonders why the British Embassy doesn't adopt it for us Brits instead of just dumping the current system. In effect it is no difference to the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Expattaff1308