BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Then why complain about the BE, continue with the German Embassy.

I will do so, in fact its the only embassy I use, I have never used or trusted the BE with anything important. The reason I join this thread is my fear that the BE has opened a can of worms which may cause the TI to go a completely different route than before regarding income related visa's to the detriment of all of us. Not being satisfied with the status quo, with their caveat they have told the king he is wearing no clothes, that won't sit well.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

A far better option than the one that they have chosen. TiT where crackdowns are very short lived and usually come to nothing. It seems to me that most embassies recognise this and are continuing as normal until when and if TI make their move.

I don't agree with that.

 

Imagine the Australian Embassy continuing with their 'Stat Decs', only for Immigration to suddenly refuse the document from their Embassy, because it doesn't verify their income. How does that benefit their citizens or allow them the time to make alternative arrangements. They'd get a 7 day extension to leave Thailand. They couldn't possible season funds in a Thai bank in that situation.

 

Sorry, but I believe the BE and US Embassies are bearing the burden of responsibilities to their citizens and advising of the events in order to grant their citizens time to adjust.

As it currently stands, only 400K or 800K deposited in a Thai bank will be acceptable to Immigration in the future.

 

Income could only be verified by Immigration if paid or transferred into a Thai bank account and either bank statements or passbook accompanied by a letter from the Thai bank, but that method is not and may not be confirmed by Immigration, although that would be the logical way forward for proof of income.

[evadgib]

10 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

The BE isn't passing the buck. They're simply refusing to comply with ridiculous demands.

Which was exactly my point.

[OJAS]

40 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Sorry, but I believe the BE and US Embassies are bearing the burden of responsibilities to their citizens and advising of the events in order to grant their citizens time to adjust.

I do, however, have to question seriously whether they have really allowed sufficient time for this purpose. On the basis that we are talking about an issue which was first identified as long ago as last May, why couldn't they have announced their decisions then? As things stand, those who will need to renew their retirement extensions from July 2019 onwards will somehow need to drum up 800,000 THB from somewhere to place in their Thai bank accounts from as soon as April 2019 in order to meet seasoning requirements - in other words in barely little more than 6 months!

 

That said, other embassies who might be minded to follow the British and American lead but have yet to announce any decsion to withdraw their income confirmation services might, of course, be placing their nationals in an even worse predicament!

Edited October 27, 2018 by OJAS

[soalbundy]

41 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Then why complain about the BE, continue with the German Embassy.

 

Out of interest, how do the German Embassy provide evidence to Immigration.

Do you show documentation and they produce a letter, as with the BE, OR

Do you swear an 'affidavit' regards income, OR

Do you make a 'Statutory Declaration' regards your income.

I go personally bringing original statements/letters from the state pension people and from my company pension, I produce the print version from my internet banking statements for every month that show the incoming payments, my passport and my yellow book. Since I go to them every year I am in their computer system so my income can be compared to last years declaration, any discrepancy, for instance, why has my state pension increased from last year, I can show the letter informing me of the increase. No affidavit, no swearing (that would be theatrical, since I am producing the documents I am already saying this is true). The documents are taken and I am told to go back to my seat and come when called, after 15 to 20 minuets I am called to take and pay for the letter 1,400 Baht. It is signed by the attache and stamped by the embassy. Once  several years ago I had inadvertently given them a copy of one of the letters and the certification was refused, I couldn't tell the difference but obviously they can.  

[Tanoshi]

53 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I will do so, in fact its the only embassy I use, I have never used or trusted the BE with anything important. The reason I join this thread is my fear that the BE has opened a can of worms which may cause the TI to go a completely different route than before regarding income related visa's to the detriment of all of us. Not being satisfied with the status quo, with their caveat they have told the king he is wearing no clothes, that won't sit well.

It's TI that has opened the can of worms by insisting the incomes be 'verified' which is impossible for the BE, the US, or any other Embassy to comply with due to Data protection laws.

 

Be assured other Embassies will soon follow suit shortly, or continue to issue documents which will be eventually refused by Immigration because they do not 'verify' your income.

 

It is now, as the US Embassy state down to the Thai authorities to announce an acceptable alternative method of verifying income.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I will do so, in fact its the only embassy I use, I have never used or trusted the BE with anything important. The reason I join this thread is my fear that the BE has opened a can of worms which may cause the TI to go a completely different route than before regarding income related visa's to the detriment of all of us. Not being satisfied with the status quo, with their caveat they have told the king he is wearing no clothes, that won't sit well.

Consular-wise you are German if you entered on a German passport whether you like it or not.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

It's TI that has opened the can of worms by insisting the incomes be 'verified' which is impossible for the BE, the US, or any other Embassy to comply with due to Data protection laws.

 

Be assured other Embassies will soon follow suit shortly, or continue to issue documents which will be eventually refused by Immigration because they do not 'verify' your income.

 

It is now, as the US Embassy state down to the Thai authorities to announce an acceptable alternative method of verifying income.

I believe (which means I don't know ) that the TI first became active when the BE put a caveat at the bottom of their letter, a challenge to the status quo which had worked well until then, as we all know in Thailand it is more about show than substance.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Consular-wise you are German if you entered on a German passport whether you like it or not.

British passport, due to living almost all my working life in Germany I get a German pension.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I believe (which means I don't know ) that the TI first became active when the BE put a caveat at the bottom of their letter, a challenge to the status quo which had worked well until then, as we all know in Thailand it is more about show than substance.

What caveat?

 

From what I've previously read on TV, Immigration became suspicious of declared incomes when they asked some expats to produce their personal documents to substantiate the amounts quoted and of course they couldn't.

Until then I believe the Thai authorities in their ignorance of western laws believed the Embassies were actually verifying the authenticity of the statements or documents, which was not the case.

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

British passport, due to living almost all my working life in Germany I get a German pension.

Yet have ' never used or trusted the BE'? 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

What caveat?

 

From what I've previously read on TV, Immigration became suspicious of declared incomes when they asked some expats to produce their personal documents to substantiate the amounts quoted and of course they couldn't.

Until then I believe the Thai authorities in their ignorance of western laws believed the Embassies were actually verifying the authenticity of the statements or documents, which was not the case.

The caveat which says they can't validate the truth of the income shown by the applicant, it's at the bottom of the letter apparently.

If some expats couldn't show the IO supporting documents of income then the BE hadn't shown due diligence before issuing the letter ( why does that not surprise me )

[Pattaya46]

27 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

It's TI that has opened the can of worms by insisting the incomes be 'verified' which is impossible for the BE, the US, or any other Embassy to comply with //

How do you know that ?

I have read somewhere else that it's the BE that has opened the can of worms by asking TI if this letter could have any legal consequence for the BE in case of inaccuracy...

 

I have found no evidence on the Internet for one or the other of these 2 scenarios

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Yet have ' never used or trusted the BE'? 

I used them once when I sent an application for a new passport to Duesseldorf (where the embassy was at that time) and again in Munich at the new embassy. On the application forms I was asked to provide a contact tel. number so I wrote down my office number. 3 or 4 days after that I was bombarded with calls from the UK trying to sell me life insurances, investment fonds, stocks and shares from brokerages etc. the embassies had sold my personal info, the phone calls all addressed me by name. I rang them up to protest, I was getting 20 calls a day, for them to say ''oh no, we don't do things like that'' so I informed the companies security service, a sort of internal MI5 ( a very big renowned firm) the calls stopped 2 days later.

[cleopatra2]

29 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

British passport, due to living almost all my working life in Germany I get a German pension.

Soalbundy , just a quick clarification/enquiry.

Have Thai Immigration ever queried your German income letter . It is my understanding that the requirements for the income letter state , from the persons embassy .

Whilst I agree the German consulate is in a better position to and pragmatic confirm the income. A narrow interpretation of the rules would require the BE to actually confirm the German income

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, cleopatra2 said:

Soalbundy , just a quick clarification/enquiry.

Have Thai Immigration ever queried your German income letter . It is my understanding that the requirements for the income letter state , from the persons embassy .

Whilst I agree the German consulate is in a better position to and pragmatic confirm the income. A narrow interpretation of the rules would require the BE to actually confirm the German income

Yes, almost every year the big boss comes down and asks me about this but when I tell him that I have worked all my life in Germany they were satisfied. Many years ago I tried the British consul in Pattaya, I was told that all the documents would have to be translated and they would be seen by the BE in BKK and then sent to London for verification where, the consul said, in his experience they would, after several months, be refused. ''Try the German embassy, they are cheaper than us, the BE doesn't like it but what else can you do'' Which is how I came to use the Germans every year. A narrow interpretation of the rules would be pointless now anyway, they wouldn't verify the snot in their nose.

[Tanoshi]

52 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The caveat which says they can't validate the truth of the income shown by the applicant, it's at the bottom of the letter apparently.

If some expats couldn't show the IO supporting documents of income then the BE hadn't shown due diligence before issuing the letter ( why does that not surprise me )

That is complete and utter nonsense. No such caveat appears on the BE letters.

 

You have to supply documentary proof of the incomes stated on the application form to receive the letter.

No proof, no letter.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

You have to authenticate the document as genuine, before you can authenticate the income stated on it.

Just because you state it's genuine, doesn't mean it is. A quick perusal cannot confirm it's genuine.

I could knock up an identical letter from my Pension provider that would look as genuine as an original.

I might be able to if I was a bit more computer savvy. Perhaps save the original letter as a PDF file and use a PDF editor.

 

That would probably work for my military and company pensions but my State pension is printed on a different kind of paper.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

That is complete and utter nonsense. No such caveat appears on the BE letters.

 

You have to supply documentary proof of the incomes stated on the application form to receive the letter.

No proof, no letter.

The caveat, I have never seen a BE embassy letter but an example of the caveat has been shown on this thread somewhere.

If no proof, no letter why was it stated that some British expats were unable to show supporting documents to the IO, I can only go on what others write if I haven't experienced it myself.

[Tanoshi]

50 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

How do you know that ?

Read the Embassy statements or watch the video.

Thai authorities requested the Embassies to verify the incomes.

 

I'll go as far as making two predictions;

1. Within the next couple of weeks we'll see further similar announcements made by other Embassies, the Australian Embassy being next.

2. Those Embassies who continue to issue statements re income, will find come July they are refused as verification of income by Thai Immigration.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Read the Embassy statements or watch the video.

Thai authorities requested the Embassies to verify the incomes.

 

I'll go as far as making two predictions;

1. Within the next couple of weeks we'll see further similar announcements made by other Embassies, the Australian Embassy being next.

2. Those Embassies who continue to issue statements re income, will find come July they are refused as verification of income by Thai Immigration.

It will all depend on the wording of the letter, affidavits I imagine will be refused but I doubt (read 'hope' here ) that there will be a blanket refusal of all letters.

[Tanoshi]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The caveat, I have never seen a BE embassy letter but an example of the caveat has been shown on this thread somewhere.

If no proof, no letter why was it stated that some British expats were unable to show supporting documents to the IO, I can only go on what others write if I haven't experienced it myself.

More nonsense. Somebody with a conspiracy theory trying to lay blame on the BE.

 

 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I used them once when I sent an application for a new passport to Duesseldorf (where the embassy was at that time) and again in Munich at the new embassy. On the application forms I was asked to provide a contact tel. number so I wrote down my office number. 3 or 4 days after that I was bombarded with calls from the UK trying to sell me life insurances, investment fonds, stocks and shares from brokerages etc. the embassies had sold my personal info, the phone calls all addressed me by name. I rang them up to protest, I was getting 20 calls a day, for them to say ''oh no, we don't do things like that'' so I informed the companies security service, a sort of internal MI5 ( a very big renowned firm) the calls stopped 2 days later.

Dusseldorf in the 20th century is a long way from Bkk in the 21st and further still from the topic in hand.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by evadgib

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

More nonsense. Somebody with a conspiracy theory trying to lay blame on the BE.

 

 

I think you need a newer example than 2017

[billd766]

32 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That is complete and utter nonsense. No such caveat appears on the BE letters.

 

You have to supply documentary proof of the incomes stated on the application form to receive the letter.

No proof, no letter.

On the embassy letter for 2018 and 2017 at the bottom it clearly states the following.

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok, on this document should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law."

 

I have lost the files from 2013 to 2016 but from 2012 and previous this wording did not appear.

 

Every year I always provided the genuine documents from my pension providers to the embassy.

 

I highlighted the paragraph in bold print.

Edited October 27, 2018 by billd766
edited for bad spelling after I had posted it.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Dusseldorf in the 20th century is a long way from Bkk in the 21st and further still from the topic in hand.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation

 

It was an appropriate response to someone doubting that I had never used the UK embassy, I had of course but only if it couldn't be avoided.

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The caveat, I have never seen a BE embassy letter but an example of the caveat has been shown on this thread somewhere.

If no proof, no letter why was it stated that some British expats were unable to show supporting documents to the IO, I can only go on what others write if I haven't experienced it myself.

The caveat (as at Jan '18) was:-

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok on this document should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether under UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law"

[dick dasterdly]

The BE letter itself says 'x has stated that she receives monthly pensions totalling GB x and has shown to letters from x, y and a P60 End of Year Certificate from z, stating that she receives pensions totalling GBP x per annum.'

[evadgib]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It was an appropriate response to someone doubting that I had never used the UK embassy, I had of course but only if it couldn't be avoided.

The claim was your own but i'll leave it at that ????

[Mark1066]

8 hours ago, Spidey said:

If they were doing that, they would continue to issue the letters as they do now, as most embassies are doing.

Who called the meeting with immigration in May? If it was Immigration, they obviously have a problem with the existing system.