Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[sambum]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Full stop discussion over it seems I am confused in how I see the situation after Dec deadline believing that UK bank statements for 1 year will be accepted by Bkk immigration head office instead of a British Embassy letter.

 

At the moment Thai immigration want a letter from British Embassy and if the British Embassy is to finish this letter supply and the Thai immigration will not accept applications from Brits with no letter then there's no alternative but to use the other method. 

"UK bank statements for 1 year will be accepted by Bkk immigration head office"

 

Couple of points here - where did you read/hear that Immigration would accept UK bank statements for one year? If this is the case I am a very happy man, but I understood that the statements had to be regarding a THAI bank account?

 

And secondly, if the above IS true, then would it apply to all Immigration Offices over the country, or just Bkk Head Immigration Office, and if not - why not?

[jimn]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Full stop discussion over it seems I am confused in how I see the situation after Dec deadline believing that UK bank statements for 1 year will be accepted by Bkk immigration head office instead of a British Embassy letter.

 

At the moment Thai immigration want a letter from British Embassy and if the British Embassy is to finish this letter supply and the Thai immigration will not accept applications from Brits with no letter then there's no alternative but to use the other method. 

Correct. Unless Thai Imigration change their stance. As ony 1 embassy is involved this is unlikely.

[jimn]

49 minutes ago, sambum said:

"UK bank statements for 1 year will be accepted by Bkk immigration head office"

 

Couple of points here - where did you read/hear that Immigration would accept UK bank statements for one year? If this is the case I am a very happy man, but I understood that the statements had to be regarding a THAI bank account?

 

And secondly, if the above IS true, then would it apply to all Immigration Offices over the country, or just Bkk Head Immigration Office, and if not - why not?

I am afraid Kawaski has believed the nonsence being quoted by the BE and some posters who think bank statements of any kind are accepted which at this time are not. No matter what the BE says. Its shamefull that the BE are so uninformed of the situation on the ground.

[SheungWan]

I just recalled the one time I got snarled up in a withdrawal of income generation for visa application. It used to be the case that one could apply for a non-imm O visa based on private retirement income meeting the 65,000 baht threshold (if memory serves me right). It was around 2014? that this rug was pulled and only evidence of receipt of State Pension was permitted. I got rebuffed at the Thai Embassy, panicked, got a tourist visa, thought everything was over, calmed down and then went through the soup of getting an O-A. Point? Verification considered an issue by Thailand. Not just a BE thing.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

They are still working for other embassies who use the real world principle and not the 'reasonable man', I just checked the German embassy website, no change, Sunday evening I take the night train to Bangkok and expect to get my letter as usual on monday for my extension end of November and I expect to do the same next year.

Not sure if your confidence for next year extends to buying the train ticket in advance.

[soalbundy]

24 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Not sure if your confidence for next year extends to buying the train ticket in advance.

I might be dead by then so it wouldn't matter either way.

[Kwasaki]

People make me laugh and they say I don't get, I did my research years ago.

 

[sambum]

7 hours ago, jimn said:

I am afraid Kawaski has believed the nonsence being quoted by the BE and some posters who think bank statements of any kind are accepted which at this time are not. No matter what the BE says. Its shamefull that the BE are so uninformed of the situation on the ground.

I would like to think that Immigration would accept some other proof of income other than the letter from the British Embassy, which seems to me at the moment to be a dead duck in the water (or maybe it's just resting?)

 

The British Embassy issued (s) a letter which notifies Thai Immigration that "Mr Smith" has informed us that his annual income totals (say) 20.000 British pounds per year. Thai Immigration then apply that to the exchange rate that they are working to, and if it comes to more than 800,000 baht, they are/were happy to accept that.

 

Moving forward, they are not happy to accept that, as at no time is that income verified by the British Embassy - in fact, by law, under the Data Protection Act, The British Embassy are not allowed to do so, so will not accept applications for any more Proof of Income letters after 12th December.

 

Moving further forward, could the applicant not submit the details that were previously submitted to the British Embassy as proof of income (e.g. Bank statements from a British bank) to a Thai solicitor/notary who could get the applicant to sign an "affidavit" to verify that all the details were correct, and then have the documents translated into Thai, which could then be submitted to Thai Immigration? An extremely long way round a problem which could be solved by the British Embassy adjusting their system slightly, but I do not hold out much hope of that happening! 

 

 

[soalbundy]

5 hours ago, sambum said:

I would like to think that Immigration would accept some other proof of income other than the letter from the British Embassy, which seems to me at the moment to be a dead duck in the water (or maybe it's just resting?)

 

The British Embassy issued (s) a letter which notifies Thai Immigration that "Mr Smith" has informed us that his annual income totals (say) 20.000 British pounds per year. Thai Immigration then apply that to the exchange rate that they are working to, and if it comes to more than 800,000 baht, they are/were happy to accept that.

 

Moving forward, they are not happy to accept that, as at no time is that income verified by the British Embassy - in fact, by law, under the Data Protection Act, The British Embassy are not allowed to do so, so will not accept applications for any more Proof of Income letters after 12th December.

 

Moving further forward, could the applicant not submit the details that were previously submitted to the British Embassy as proof of income (e.g. Bank statements from a British bank) to a Thai solicitor/notary who could get the applicant to sign an "affidavit" to verify that all the details were correct, and then have the documents translated into Thai, which could then be submitted to Thai Immigration? An extremely long way round a problem which could be solved by the British Embassy adjusting their system slightly, but I do not hold out much hope of that happening! 

 

 

At the moment it's all could be, should be, maybe, until the TI issues a statement we know nothing. I will join in with the maybe's here, If the TI said we will accept an embassy letter OR an affidavit from a Thai lawyer that is maybe a way out, the majority of applicants could still offer the embassy letter and the Brits who rely on income could use a Thai lawyer, maybe it will come to this as it is a simple solution for the TI.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

At the moment it's all could be, should be, maybe, until the TI issues a statement we know nothing. I will join in with the maybe's here, If the TI said we will accept an embassy letter OR an affidavit from a Thai lawyer that is maybe a way out, the majority of applicants could still offer the embassy letter and the Brits who rely on income could use a Thai lawyer, maybe it will come to this as it is a simple solution for the TI.

Several Law firms in Bangkok have British lawyers on staff who could  provide the same function as the BE does now. Has the BE made any effort at all to outsource this function?  British citizens need to be proactive and make sure their Embassy is being asked pertinent questions.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Several Law firms in Bangkok have British lawyers on staff who could  provide the same function as the BE does now. Has the BE made any effort at all to outsource this function?  British citizens need to be proactive and make sure their Embassy is being asked pertinent questions.

Yes, I agree with you but if the BE wont backtrack on the embassy letter then my solution could be a way out for both the BE and the TI, the BE could supply a list of law firms with British lawyers (we are helping our citizens) and TI would have their 'simple solution' ie, one letter covering everything.

[SheungWan]

17 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Several Law firms in Bangkok have British lawyers on staff who could  provide the same function as the BE does now. Has the BE made any effort at all to outsource this function?  British citizens need to be proactive and make sure their Embassy is being asked pertinent questions.

The BE is withdrawing the Letter because it considers that the function it provides now does not satisfy the requirements of TI/its own auditing function. Therefore it is unlikely to outsource a service which it no longer considers satisfactory. As for outsourcing a verification service, it would still be on the hook for any third party approvals re issuance of a Letter. So on balance not worth that solution.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The BE is withdrawing the Letter because it considers that the function it provides now does not satisfy the requirements of TI/its own auditing function. Therefore it is unlikely to outsource a service which it no longer considers satisfactory. As for outsourcing a verification service, it would still be on the hook for any third party approvals re issuance of a Letter. So on balance not worth that solution.

No one knows what Thai Imm will accept because there is no information from the BE that they are negotiating anything. Simply withdrawing a service without negotiating  with Thai Imm is not fair or just to citizens

 

Instead of shooting down every proposal or idea- please feel free to provide an alternative to British citizens who under Thai law can still use the income method.  Thailand has not changed its Immigration law.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

The BE is withdrawing the Letter because it considers that the function it provides now does not satisfy the requirements of TI/its own auditing function. Therefore it is unlikely to outsource a service which it no longer considers satisfactory. As for outsourcing a verification service, it would still be on the hook for any third party approvals re issuance of a Letter. So on balance not worth that solution.

The onus is really on the TI, they can either do nothing (which I find unlikely) or stipulate another route. The BE doesn't have to outsource anything in my suggestion, merely saving face by saying we are helping our citizens by giving them a list of law firms who have British lawyers who can issue an affidavit in line with the new regulations (if there were any, it's all 'if's' ) of the TI, the BE wouldn't be involved at all.

[SheungWan]

Just now, Thaidream said:

No one knows what Thai Imm will accept because there is no information from the BE that they are negotiating anything. Simply withdrawing a service without negotiating  with Thai Imm is not fair or just to citizens

Instead of shooting down every proposal or idea- please feel free to provide an alternative to British citizens who under Thai law can still use the income method.  Thailand has not changed its Immigration law.

I am more than happy to continuing to shoot down ideas which I think are non viable +/or a dead end. You want a happy ending? ???? Personally, the more I think about it, the income method is on the way out. Sure I could be wrong. Will it affect some people negatively? Yes it will. What do I suggest? Nothing new, just use an agent for the time being. And as for those who are either uncomfortable with using an agent or bringing 800k into Thailand or who do not want to source their visa in the UK, well I'm sorry, those are the remaining options on the table right now for 2019.

[certacito]

On 10/20/2018 at 7:26 AM, soalbundy said:

n British law there is the concept of the 'reasonable man' and what he is expected to do, for instance before using public transport the 'reasonable man' would be expected to read through the many volumes of rules and regulations of that particular mode of transport, before using his car, at all times, he would thoroughly check his car as to its roadworthiness, including measuring the tyre pressure, etc, etc, of course nobody is so 'reasonable' otherwise nothing would ever get done, things function on trust and common sense. I don't turn to google or facebook to ascertain if my doctor or pharmacist is qualified, I don't ask the taxi driver if he has a driving license. In the same manner it can be expected that the vast majority of people are being honest with their income declarations. 

 

You clearly have no idea what the "reasonable man" means in law, (British or otherwise).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

 

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I am more than happy to continuing to shoot down ideas which I think are non viable +/or a dead end. You want a happy ending? ???? Personally, the more I think about it, the income method is on the way out. Sure I could be wrong. Will it affect some people negatively? Yes it will. What do I suggest? Nothing new, just use an agent for the time being. And as for those who are either uncomfortable with using an agent or bringing 800k into Thailand or who do not want to source their visa in the UK, well I'm sorry, those are the remaining options on the table right now for 2019.

I don't see the income method being no longer valid, first, they would have to change the law and secondly this would not only affect British expats but thousands of other nationalities and causing unnecessary hardship to many of their Thai families including Thai/farang children, no, another simple method will be found, the TI wants it simple and they wont want to make waves, not the Thai way.

[certacito]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Several Law firms in Bangkok have British lawyers on staff who could  provide the same function as the BE does now. Has the BE made any effort at all to outsource this function?  British citizens need to be proactive and make sure their Embassy is being asked pertinent questions.

Really? I wonder what they do? Seeing as it is a forbidden occupation for a foreigner.

 

39.  Legal service or lawsuit work;

 

http://www.mol.go.th/en/content/page/6347

 

[SheungWan]

22 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The onus is really on the TI, they can either do nothing (which I find unlikely) or stipulate another route. The BE doesn't have to outsource anything in my suggestion, merely saving face by saying we are helping our citizens by giving them a list of law firms who have British lawyers who can issue an affidavit in line with the new regulations (if there were any, it's all 'if's' ) of the TI, the BE wouldn't be involved at all.

Going down the route of TI possibly going inhouse, then probably only going to happen if can be processed by any approved legal firm.

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't see the income method being no longer valid, first, they would have to change the law and secondly this would not only affect British expats but thousands of other nationalities and causing unnecessary hardship to many of their Thai families including Thai/farang children, no, another simple method will be found, the TI wants it simple and they wont want to make waves, not the Thai way.

You may be right. They have only got 2+ months? to come up with something for UK citizens until the door effectively closes on this pathway (notwithstanding letters obtained prior to the deadline). Otherwise finished.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, certacito said:

Really? I wonder what they do? Seeing as it is a forbidden occupation for a foreigner.

 

39.  Legal service or lawsuit work;

 

http://www.mol.go.th/en/content/page/6347

 

I don't even see why they would have to be British, just English speaking. All international law firms have Thai and none Thai partners, I myself consulted with a law firm in Bangkok and spoke with an American lawyer.

[Thaidream]

22 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

am more than happy to continuing to shoot down ideas which I think are non viable +/or a dead end. You want a happy ending? ???? Personally, the more I think about it, the income method is on the way out. Sure I could be wrong. Will it affect some people negatively? Yes it will. What do I suggest? Nothing new, just use an agent for the time being. And as for those who are either uncomfortable with using an agent or bringing 800k into Thailand or who do not want to source their visa in the UK, well I'm sorry, those are the remaining options on the table right now for 2019.

Of course you have nothing new because you have made no positive comments regarding this issue except defend BE.  Your are entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else. I have no skin in the game as I have a variety of methods I can use.  Many people have posted and given positive ideas that could be negotiated with BE and Thai Imm.  Unfortunately- most people on the board cannot go into the BE and have them negotiate with Thai Imm.  Since BE represents British interests in Thailand- their modus operandi needs to be finding a solution that works for ALL.

 

However, If people act in good faith and listen to each other and provide positive feedback- most things work out. 

 

 

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Several Law firms in Bangkok have British lawyers on staff who could  provide the same function as the BE does now. Has the BE made any effort at all to outsource this function?  British citizens need to be proactive and make sure their Embassy is being asked pertinent questions.

How could a British lawyer provide the same function as the BE does now ? The current function is a letter written by the consulate and signed by the consulate. A British lawyer writing a letter and signing it would be no different to a note from your mum. A British lawyer could maybe witness affidavits/declarations, the same as the other embassies currently do for their citizens. But currently TI only accepts declarations witnessed by embassies.

[Thaidream]

47 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

he onus is really on the TI, they can either do nothing (which I find unlikely) or stipulate another route. The BE doesn't have to outsource anything in my suggestion, merely saving face by saying we are helping our citizens by giving them a list of law firms who have British lawyers who can issue an affidavit in line with the new regulations (if there were any, it's all 'if's' ) of the TI, the BE wouldn't be involved at all.

Agree in theory- but someone has  to make sure the Lawyer letter would be accepted by Thai Imm-  The BE stated in their interview they would be in touch with Thai Imm. Since they have official status- they could easily negotiate with a Thai Law firm to take this on.  A person could draw up their own letter- go to a British Lawyer in Thailand- have them notarize it and swear on Oath-  The Question will be - will Thai Imm accept it?  

[doctormann]

14 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

You may be right. They have only got 2+ months? to come up with something for UK citizens until the door effectively closes on this pathway (notwithstanding letters obtained prior to the deadline). Otherwise finished.

Yes, the clock is ticking.

 

If some of us do have to take the seasoned bank deposit route and need to liquidate assets in the UK to do this it needs to be appreciated that this will take time.  The anti-money-laundering regulations now make it less than simple to actually get at your own money these days, requiring notarised passport copies and proof of address at the very least.  Electronic copies of documents are not acceptable for this purpose - in my experience - so hard copy documents have to be sent through the postal system.  This takes several days - one way - even if Express Mail or a courier service is used.  Expensive too!

 

Personally, I am reluctant to start liquidating anything at present but I shall have to make a decision by the year's end.  I'm still hoping that Immigration will come up with a viable alternative - and soon.  Not holding my breath though!

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, doctormann said:

Yes, the clock is ticking.

 

If some of us do have to take the seasoned bank deposit route and need to liquidate assets in the UK to do this it needs to be appreciated that this will take time.  The anti-money-laundering regulations now make it less than simple to actually get at your own money these days, requiring notarised passport copies and proof of address at the very least.  Electronic copies of documents are not acceptable for this purpose - in my experience - so hard copy documents have to be sent through the postal system.  This takes several days - one way - even if Express Mail or a courier service is used.  Expensive too!

 

Personally, I am reluctant to start liquidating anything at present but I shall have to make a decision by the year's end.  I'm still hoping that Immigration will come up with a viable alternative - and soon.  Not holding my breath though!

I sold some land and the bank wired the money to my Thai account.  Is there more to it now?

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, doctormann said:

The anti-money-laundering regulations now make it less than simple to actually get at your own money these days, requiring notarised passport copies and proof of address at the very least.

Who is requiring notarised passport copies and proof of address? If its your funds in your bank, you can access it any time you like and send it to Thailand. Am I missing something?

[doctormann]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Who is requiring notarised passport copies and proof of address? If its your funds in your bank, you can access it any time you like and send it to Thailand. Am I missing something?

I'm referring to investment funds, not money in bank accounts.

To liquidate investments requires anti-money-laundering hoops to be jumped.

This is certainly the case with UK companies and certainly reflects my experience.

 

Firstly, you need to correspond with the appropriate investment company to request a valuation and subsequent release of funds.  This cannot be done by email for security reasons.

 

The investment company then requires proof of identity and proof of address.  Both reasonable requirements although the list of documents that can be used for proof of address seems to get more limited all the time.

 

Eventually, the funds will be released into a UK bank account, from where they can be transferred to a Thai account.  All takes time!

 

The whole process has been made more difficult because of the pressure on us from financial institutions to accept electronic statements, etc.  Hard copies are being phased out.  Not very good when you need an original hard copy of a document to be copied and notarised as the original hard copy doesn't even exist!

 

[doctormann]

18 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I sold some land and the bank wired the money to my Thai account.  Is there more to it now?

And how long did that take?  Not quick, I bet.

No problem with bank transfers - it's getting the money into the UK bank in the first place that's the issue.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I don't see the income method being no longer valid, first, they would have to change the law and ... //

No need to change the law. The law says you need to show proof of income but definition of an acceptable/valid proof is not in the law.

So Immigration could well tomorrow (if they wanted to!) just change their internal rules to define a proof (nearly) impossible to get, and it would be the end of the income method... 

I really doubt the would want to do that though.