WikiLeaks' Assange sues in Ecuador for better asylum terms - lawyer

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm still at a loss (only joking ????) as to why you and other prefer that the truth should be with-held from the population ????!

 

And on the other hand, I quite understand why you insist on making up stuff regarding my and other posters' views. That's what some posters do when they do not have a valid argument. Considering you go on and on about "truth", perhaps practice some when referencing posters' comments?

[SpaceKadet]

19 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Skripal was a spy, and from Russia's point of view, a traitor. As far as I'm aware, Hongwei wasn't much of dissident or in opposition to his country's regime. Neither were quite what Assange and Wikileaks claim to be and what you and others try to paint them as. This would be third post now you're trying to conflate between the two, not buying. Being a whistle-blower, never mind a professional one is something fraught with risks. Nothing new there.

 

You start off with addressing the dangers of being a Chinese or Russian dissident - supposedly as an explanation regarding why there aren't as many or why Wikileaks doesn't do that much. Then you go on to assert that the US is actually the worst of the lot. If that was so, how come there are so many active "whistle blowers" going on about US issues? How come Assange, Manning, and Snowden (just to name a few well-known ones) are still around?

 

You want to rant about the US being "bad", go right ahead. No need for that waffle about "language barrier" and such.

 

China and Russia are busy suppressing their own people at home (which you seem not too concerned about), but both been "active" internationally as well - unless one insists on ignoring things. Not on the scale of involvement exhibited by the US, but that's more to do with resources (and not being busy suppressing its own people back home).

Let me just be clear. By America or US, I mean its government. As you can suspect from my avatar, I own an “American Icon”. I think that the country is diverse and splendid, its people generally friendly, and food excellent. I have, like many Europeans, distant relatives living there. Some of my very close friends are American citizens. However, they have been international expats for 25+ years. Maybe that’s what’s needed to see the bigger picture.

 

Mr. Assange is just a facilitator, just like The New York Times was in the case of Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers. Amazing how perceptions can change in 37 years. But Ellsberg is an American citizen, and NY Times a US publisher. They are guaranteed their constitutional amendments. Non-citizens, however, are not. Julian is still around, but might not have been, had Ms. Clinton got her wish to “Drone” him, or become POTUS.

 

Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained. Again, he is an American citizen. His case was often compared to Ellsberg’s, and that’s probably what’s got him a presidential pardon. I do respect him, her now, for having the courage to reveal it all. He/she might be regarded as a traitor in the eyes of the wrongdoers, but for many, Manning is a hero.

 

Mr. Snowden is another gem altogether. At the time of his revelations, five years ago, I was working in computing security, and the community has been discussing the existence and impact of the tools he finally revealed. For the first time we had somebody actually developing the tools we strongly suspected existed, and had access to classified surveillance programs. How did you react when you learned that the supposedly secure SSL connection to your bank, or any other institution, can be decrypted and viewed in real time? Or that the RNG was not very random and controlled by the NSA.

Snowden had to run, and the only country not being intimidated by US threats to receive him was Russia. Of course, on the part of Russia, there was some self-interest too. IMO he will never be able to leave his current exile, and he might not be around now, had he been on the international flight that was forced to land, by the order of US, on the mere suspicion that he might be one of the passengers.

 

Words of former President Clinton still ring in my ears; “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…” Fifteen years later, the NSA; “We don’t spy on American citizens…” later changed to; “Yes, we do spy on American citizens, but it’s for your own protection…” Thank you Mr. Snowden!

 

Since then, we had Vault7 exposure, which is still being published. I wish we also could get Chinese, Russian and N Korean hacking and surveillance tools exposed too…

 

Yes, China and Russia (and DPRK) do suppress their own citizens, hence the lack of intimidating exposures, but at least they don’t deny it, even if they don’t acknowledge it.

 

Reading your responses, I have to admire your devotion to your masters. Obviously, their brainwashing really does work.

 

I don’t see how continuing our off topic discussion will contribute to anything constructive. We don’t seem to have any common points, so let’s just rest it.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I suspect that few of us think that Assange is a 'nice' guy in the general term.  Few, who are passionate about anything, are 'nice'.

 

That's a fine generalization, which I doubt you could support with anything much.

[SpaceKadet]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Like you are having problems understanding why its threat to the lawful conduct of an election, for an agent of a foreign power to hack the private emails of a presidential candidate, to pass those emails to an organisation working for that foreign government and for that organisation to publish the emails in an attack on the election and candidate that is coordinated with the foreign government.  

 

Are you really struggling to understand what a threat to democracy such actions are?

 

Oh and guess which foreign government ?!

I can't see anything wrong with that. After all, US agencies do it all the time.... and then cry when they get exposed.

[Chomper Higgot]

10 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

Let me just be clear. By America or US, I mean its government. As you can suspect from my avatar, I own an “American Icon”. I think that the country is diverse and splendid, its people generally friendly, and food excellent. I have, like many Europeans, distant relatives living there. Some of my very close friends are American citizens. However, they have been international expats for 25+ years. Maybe that’s what’s needed to see the bigger picture.

 

Mr. Assange is just a facilitator, just like The New York Times was in the case of Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers. Amazing how perceptions can change in 37 years. But Ellsberg is an American citizen, and NY Times a US publisher. They are guaranteed their constitutional amendments. Non-citizens, however, are not. Julian is still around, but might not have been, had Ms. Clinton got her wish to “Drone” him, or become POTUS.

 

Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained. Again, he is an American citizen. His case was often compared to Ellsberg’s, and that’s probably what’s got him a presidential pardon. I do respect him, her now, for having the courage to reveal it all. He/she might be regarded as a traitor in the eyes of the wrongdoers, but for many, Manning is a hero.

 

Mr. Snowden is another gem altogether. At the time of his revelations, five years ago, I was working in computing security, and the community has been discussing the existence and impact of the tools he finally revealed. For the first time we had somebody actually developing the tools we strongly suspected existed, and had access to classified surveillance programs. How did you react when you learned that the supposedly secure SSL connection to your bank, or any other institution, can be decrypted and viewed in real time? Or that the RNG was not very random and controlled by the NSA.

Snowden had to run, and the only country not being intimidated by US threats to receive him was Russia. Of course, on the part of Russia, there was some self-interest too. IMO he will never be able to leave his current exile, and he might not be around now, had he been on the international flight that was forced to land, by the order of US, on the mere suspicion that he might be one of the passengers.

 

Words of former President Clinton still ring in my ears; “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…” Fifteen years later, the NSA; “We don’t spy on American citizens…” later changed to; “Yes, we do spy on American citizens, but it’s for your own protection…” Thank you Mr. Snowden!

 

Since then, we had Vault7 exposure, which is still being published. I wish we also could get Chinese, Russian and N Korean hacking and surveillance tools exposed too…

 

Yes, China and Russia (and DPRK) do suppress their own citizens, hence the lack of intimidating exposures, but at least they don’t deny it, even if they don’t acknowledge it.

 

Reading your responses, I have to admire your devotion to your masters. Obviously, their brainwashing really does work.

 

I don’t see how continuing our off topic discussion will contribute to anything constructive. We don’t seem to have any common points, so let’s just rest it.

"But Ellsberg is an American citizen, and NY Times a US publisher. They are guaranteed their constitutional amendments. Non-citizens, however, are not."

 

Can you please direct me to the clause in the US Constitution that excludes rights for non US citizens?

 

"Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained".

 

It kind of makes you wonder how he could have been a real whistle blower if he didn't know what information he was copying and forwarding to agents of a foreign government. 

 

Take your denial glasses off, Manning was an extremely vulnerable individual who Assange manipulated into committing crimes of espionage. 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

Let me just be clear. By America or US, I mean its government. As you can suspect from my avatar, I own an “American Icon”. I think that the country is diverse and splendid, its people generally friendly, and food excellent. I have, like many Europeans, distant relatives living there. Some of my very close friends are American citizens. However, they have been international expats for 25+ years. Maybe that’s what’s needed to see the bigger picture.

 

Mr. Assange is just a facilitator, just like The New York Times was in the case of Ellsberg’s Pentagon Papers. Amazing how perceptions can change in 37 years. But Ellsberg is an American citizen, and NY Times a US publisher. They are guaranteed their constitutional amendments. Non-citizens, however, are not. Julian is still around, but might not have been, had Ms. Clinton got her wish to “Drone” him, or become POTUS.

 

Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained. Again, he is an American citizen. His case was often compared to Ellsberg’s, and that’s probably what’s got him a presidential pardon. I do respect him, her now, for having the courage to reveal it all. He/she might be regarded as a traitor in the eyes of the wrongdoers, but for many, Manning is a hero.

 

Mr. Snowden is another gem altogether. At the time of his revelations, five years ago, I was working in computing security, and the community has been discussing the existence and impact of the tools he finally revealed. For the first time we had somebody actually developing the tools we strongly suspected existed, and had access to classified surveillance programs. How did you react when you learned that the supposedly secure SSL connection to your bank, or any other institution, can be decrypted and viewed in real time? Or that the RNG was not very random and controlled by the NSA.

Snowden had to run, and the only country not being intimidated by US threats to receive him was Russia. Of course, on the part of Russia, there was some self-interest too. IMO he will never be able to leave his current exile, and he might not be around now, had he been on the international flight that was forced to land, by the order of US, on the mere suspicion that he might be one of the passengers.

 

Words of former President Clinton still ring in my ears; “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…” Fifteen years later, the NSA; “We don’t spy on American citizens…” later changed to; “Yes, we do spy on American citizens, but it’s for your own protection…” Thank you Mr. Snowden!

 

Since then, we had Vault7 exposure, which is still being published. I wish we also could get Chinese, Russian and N Korean hacking and surveillance tools exposed too…

 

Yes, China and Russia (and DPRK) do suppress their own citizens, hence the lack of intimidating exposures, but at least they don’t deny it, even if they don’t acknowledge it.

 

Reading your responses, I have to admire your devotion to your masters. Obviously, their brainwashing really does work.

 

I don’t see how continuing our off topic discussion will contribute to anything constructive. We don’t seem to have any common points, so let’s just rest it.

 

The first part of your post, where you try to build some credibility as an "objective" commentator is, as they say, a nice story. Not particularly relevant to the discussion, though.

 

You can also try and paint Assange as some righteous warrior for freedom of information and such - good luck with that. Same goes for asserting what might have been if, based on a single unofficial quote by Clinton. Same goes for assertions regarding Snowden's fate had this or that happened. The obvious fact is that all the persons cited as examples are alive. Where applicable, their actions were dealt with through legal means and procedure. To remind, your own previous posts featured Skripal and Hongwei as examples.

 

It would take some creative imagination to assert that the US treats its citizens in similar ways to Russia, China, or North Korea. I'm aware some posters aren't interested in the concept of perspective, degree or moderation, so not altogether surprised by the nonsense spewed. Funny though, how you manage to kick the bucket as per your intro.

 

Now then, since going on about "masters" and "brainwashing" is a clear sign you either haven't got anything of substance to add, and cannot support your arguments in any meaningful way, perhaps it is, indeed, best if you withdraw from the discussion. Since I doubt this would happen, I'd ask you to stop using my posts as a platform for your preposterous rants. Adulate your heroes to your heart's content without involving me, please.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Morch

[SpaceKadet]

32 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

"But Ellsberg is an American citizen, and NY Times a US publisher. They are guaranteed their constitutional amendments. Non-citizens, however, are not."

 

Can you please direct me to the clause in the US Constitution that excludes rights for non US citizens?

 

"Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained".

 

It kind of makes you wonder how he could have been a real whistle blower if he didn't know what information he was copying and forwarding to agents of a foreign government. 

 

Take your denial glasses off, Manning was an extremely vulnerable individual who Assange manipulated into committing crimes of espionage. 

Yes, your reaction to my posts is correct. You are confused....

Edited October 22, 2018 by SpaceKadet

[Aussieroaming]

Numpty

[SpaceKadet]

41 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The first part of your post, where you try to build some credibility as an "objective" commentator is, as they say, a nice story. Not particularly relevant to the discussion, though.

 

You can also try and paint Assange as some righteous warrior for freedom of information and such - good luck with that. Same goes for asserting what might have been if, based on a single unofficial quote by Clinton. Same goes for assertions regarding Snowden's fate had this or that happened. The obvious fact is that all the persons cited as examples are alive. Where applicable, their actions were dealt with through legal means and procedure. To remind, your own previous posts featured Skripal and Hongwei as examples.

 

It would take some creative imagination to assert that the US treats its citizens in similar ways to Russia, China, or North Korea. I'm aware some posters aren't interested in the concept of perspective, degree or moderation, so not altogether surprised by the nonsense spewed. Funny though, how you manage to kick the bucket as per your intro.

 

Now then, since going on about "masters" and "brainwashing" is a clear sign you either haven't got anything of substance to add, and cannot support your arguments in any meaningful way, perhaps it is, indeed, best if you withdraw from the discussion. Since I doubt this would happen, I'd ask you to stop using my posts as a platform for your preposterous rants. Adulate your heroes to your heart's content without involving me, please.

The way you dissect my posts and your reply rhetoric makes me almost think you are a lawyer, maybe former, or current government employee... Me, I'm just a humble Engineer from a small country in the middle of FNoWhere.

 

Don't worry Mr. Morch. I don't have time in my life for you..

 

And, by the way, Mr. Clintons quote is official. It's available on youtube for all to hear... Deny it as much as you like.

"I want you to listen to me…. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time, never. These allegations are false..." ... "as his wife pursed her lips and solemnly looked on." And you almost chose that woman to be POTUS... mind boggles. 

Easy to search for and find...

 

[JAG]

1 hour ago, SpaceKadet said:

Manning, the real whistle blower, just copied data without much realizing what most of it all contained. Again, he is an American citizen. His case was often compared to Ellsberg’s, and that’s probably what’s got him a presidential pardon. 

Manning was not given a Presidential Pardon. Her sentence was commuted by President Obama, as an act of clemency. Manning remains convicted of many offences. The act of clemency was, in my view, a humane act. There was no purpose in keeping her in jail for the full sentence (35 years I believe) merely to exact revenge.

 

As an aside, equally guilty, in my opinion, were the naïve clowns who vetted such an obviously emotionally vulnerable, perhaps unstable character, and allowed her to be put in such a job, even as a low grade data processor.

[SpaceKadet]

7 minutes ago, JAG said:

Manning was not given a Presidential Pardon. Her sentence was commuted by President Obama, as an act of clemency. Manning remains convicted of many offences. The act of clemency was, in my view, a humane act. There was no purpose in keeping her in jail for the full sentence (35 years I believe) merely to exact revenge.

 

As an aside, equally guilty, in my opinion, were the naïve clowns who vetted such an obviously emotionally vulnerable, perhaps unstable character, and allowed her to be put in such a job, even as a low grade data processor.

Thank you for you insight and comment. I stand corrected.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, SpaceKadet said:

Yes, your reaction to my posts is correct. You are confused....

Of course I'm confused, you are posting comments on the scope of US Constitutional Amendments that only reveal you have absolutely no understanding of the US Constitution and you are arguing Manning was a whistle blower while at the same time stating he had no idea of what was in the files he was supposedly blowing the whistle on. 

 

Your posts are utterly confusing. 

[SpaceKadet]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Of course I'm confused, you are posting comments on the scope of US Constitutional Amendments that only reveal you have absolutely no understanding of the US Constitution and you are arguing Manning was a whistle blower while at the same time stating he had no idea of what was in the files he was supposedly blowing the whistle on. 

 

Your posts are utterly confusing. 

You're right, not being an US citizen, I have no clue of the US Constitution, neither do I care very much about it. But while it does not specifically exclude non US citizens, it does not specifically include them either. At least outside of the US borders. Or are you trying to say that Pax Americana rules the whole planet? And please, don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that Manning had time to read all the hundreds of thousands of files and watch all the videos....

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, SpaceKadet said:

You're right, not being an US citizen, I have no clue of the US Constitution, neither do I care very much about it. But while it does not specifically exclude non US citizens, it does not specifically include them either. At least outside of the US borders. Or are you trying to say that Pax Americana rules the whole planet? And please, don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that Manning had time to read all the hundreds of thousands of files and watch all the videos....

Congratulations, you are at last making progress.

 

You’ve discovered the hole in your own arguments.

 

All you need do now is recognise the hole you discovered.

 

Rest at ease, I could not possibly insult your intelligence.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[Morch]

2 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

The way you dissect my posts and your reply rhetoric makes me almost think you are a lawyer, maybe former, or current government employee... Me, I'm just a humble Engineer from a small country in the middle of FNoWhere.

 

Don't worry Mr. Morch. I don't have time in my life for you..

 

And, by the way, Mr. Clintons quote is official. It's available on youtube for all to hear... Deny it as much as you like.

"I want you to listen to me…. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time, never. These allegations are false..." ... "as his wife pursed her lips and solemnly looked on." And you almost chose that woman to be POTUS... mind boggles. 

Easy to search for and find...

 

 

Sure thing, you're just an ordinary Joe, and someone able to highlight the nonsense making up your posts is a "current government employee". It's kinda cute how you alternate between being just a "humble engineer from a small country in the middle of nowhere" and handing out detailed, lengthy (if misguided and misleading ) lectures on related issues. Make up your mind which persona you play, please - and then recall this is the third time you come back for more after decreeing that the discussion is pointless etc.

 

As for the lame deflection making the latter part of your post, I was obviously referring to the alleged quote by the other Clinton (as in HRC), in relation to her supposed wishes and Assange still among the living. Nothing to do with what you posted above.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

Thank you for you insight and comment. I stand corrected.

 

You may also note that this is quite out of step with your own portrayal of the US. Don't know that people committing such crimes get released by them other countries you compared the US to.

[SpaceKadet]

You've asked me to withdraw from the discussion, yet you cannot help but keep commenting on my posts that have nothing to do with you.

I have highest respect for the people that served, and JAG phrased his reply in an intelligent and non threatening manner.

And there is no reason to denigrate me being a "humble engineer". I can still deliver detailed, and lengthy lectures on many topics, as you yourself have said. Engineers are flexible in that way.

It's the engineers that built the media you're using now...

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, SpaceKadet said:

You've asked me to withdraw from the discussion, yet you cannot help but keep commenting on my posts that have nothing to do with you.

I have highest respect for the people that served, and JAG phrased his reply in an intelligent and non threatening manner.

And there is no reason to denigrate me being a "humble engineer". I can still deliver detailed, and lengthy lectures on many topics, as you yourself have said. Engineers are flexible in that way.

It's the engineers that built the media you're using now...

 

I haven't asked you to "withdraw from the discussion". You said you would on a few posts. I opined it would be a good move. In the same way, I haven't said anything about personally withdrawing from the discussion, and I've no issues commenting on your posts as I see fit. Whether you choose to reply is your own choice, don't blame it on other posters. And no one "denigrated" you for being a "humble engineer". You were the one who tried setting up that faux everyday Joe image.

[SpaceKadet]

35 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I haven't asked you to "withdraw from the discussion". ...

 

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

...perhaps it is, indeed, best if you withdraw from the discussion. Since I doubt this would happen, I'd ask you to stop using my posts as a platform for your preposterous rants...

I am all in, have no problem abusing your posts with my "preposterous rants" as you have mine. I can go on until the mods stop us...

[Scott]

...And you will get stopped, so I suggest you do it voluntarily.  

 

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

I think you are all wrong.... Don't shoot the messenger, blame Manning.... Who, btw, got a presidential pardon for his service..

Manning. Looks a bit lost without the other two around.

Edited October 22, 2018 by SheungWan

[Chomper Higgot]

14 hours ago, SpaceKadet said:

I think you are all wrong.... Don't shoot the messenger, blame Manning.... Who, btw, got a presidential pardon for his service..

Manning did not receive a ‘Presidential Pardon’, Manning’s sentence was  ‘commuted by Presidential Order’, the conviction and dishonorable discharge still stand.

 

This was explained to you earlier in the thread.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Chomper Higgot