Trump - U.S. to exit nuclear treaty, citing Russian violations

[neeray]

6 minutes ago, bendejo said:

 

That's the idea: going into the mid-terms he's showing that he is not Putin's biotch like the fake news says.  In three weeks this issue will be gone.

Then June of next year when the 2020 hopefuls start lining up and his opponents (both Dem and GOP, if there are any GOP pols with enough spine to challenge him*) start calling him on it, he'll deny the issue ever existed at all.  And the cherry on top will be "YOU are fake news." 

 

*Please run Ted Cruz!  The political reality show that US tv/cable news has become needs a cage match.

 

 

It would be great fun to see Trump and Cruz rip each other apart again. This time, Cruz would have lots of hard facts to work with. For sure, he's never forgiven being called "lying Ted" during the debates. Now, he's really got ammunition on "lying Donny". It would be so nuclear.

[ballpoint]

11 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

This does not sound like the Trump that Putin elected.

Russia flaunts the treaty terms, so Trump, rather than using the treaty to rein them in, says he'll tear it up, allowing them to carry on.  Sounds exactly like the Trump that Putin elected.

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, sirmud63 said:

and recent history proves my point .

Your lack of words, disproves your assertions (putting aside, of course, that the English language is actually a Germanic language, which you appear happy to converse in)

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Tug said:

In response to Morch with all due respect sir in my humble opinion a competent leader would call the Russians out level heavy sanctions to bring them in line instead we have a man that has stabbed our allies in the guts sucked up to despots devided the nation blown up the deficit wants to throw out what competent leaders have negoated over the years.we have seen this guy at work Singapore and helenski come to mind now he wants an arms race in the mists of a trade war dump the chump(trump)

 

In response to the above - with all due respect sir, have you actually read my post? Did contain any suggestion that Trump is a "competent leader"?

 

I get it some people are obsessed with posting vehement anti-Trump rants, and therefore tend to see anything other that that as supportive of Trump etc.

 

Let's try again, though - the Russians are apparently in violation of the treaty, and the Chinese are not party to it. That puts the US at a disadvantage. 

 

There are several ways to try and deal with this, and as usual, Trump's pick seems to be the daftest of the lot - in that it leaves the US in the same disadvantage (or worse), while undermining US credibility and image. Hence the comment regarding Putin having a good day.

 

As far as allies go, the Russians breaching the terms of the treaty are more of a threat to Europe. Here's the UK's response:

 

UK backs Trump withdrawal from Russia nuclear treaty

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/21/uk-backs-trumps-nuclear-treaty-withdrawal-blames-russia-for-breakdown

 

So, by all means, rant on to your hearts' content. This, however, should not make one totally blind to the fact that US adversaries are not necessarily righteous or particularly honest. One can lament the fact that the US is led by a numpty at such perilous times, though.

[Berkshire]

3 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Russia flaunts the treaty terms, so Trump, rather than using the treaty to rein them in, says he'll tear it up, allowing them to carry on.  Sounds exactly like the Trump that Putin elected.

Was thinking the same thing.  We all know that Trump never does anything for the right reasons, but rather, only if it benefits him personally.  So yea, if Putin no longer has to worry about any treaty, then Trump is certainly doing his master's bidding. 

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Was thinking the same thing.  We all know that Trump never does anything for the right reasons, but rather, only if it benefits him personally.  So yea, if Putin no longer has to worry about any treaty, then Trump is certainly doing his master's bidding. 

 

While making the US look bad as a "bonus".

[IAMHERE]

Heck, they are intermediate range missiles. Most in America don't really care if Europe gets nuked? Nobody in my town gives a rats ass about Europe being dominated by Russia. No 3rd time for them by America as far as we are concerned. Stay with the treaty, it is not aimed at the US.

[webfact]

Trump says U.S. to exit landmark nuclear arms pact, Russia threatens retaliation

 

U.S. President Donald Trump speaks with reporters before departure from Elko Regional Airport in Elko, Nevada, U.S., October 20, 2018. REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst

 

ELKO, Nev/MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Donald Trump said Washington would withdraw from a landmark Cold War-era treaty that eliminated nuclear missiles from Europe because Russia was violating the pact, triggering a warning of retaliatory measures from Moscow.

 

The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, negotiated by then-President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987, required elimination of short-range and intermediate-range nuclear and conventional missiles by both countries.

 

"Russia has not, unfortunately, honoured the agreement so we're going to terminate the agreement and we're going to pull out," Trump told reporters on Saturday after a rally in Nevada.

 

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said on Sunday that a unilateral withdrawal by the United States would be "very dangerous" and lead to a "military-technical" retaliation.

 

Gorbachev, now a frail 87-year-old, said it would be a mistake for Washington to quit the treaty, and it would undermine work he and U.S. counterparts did to end the Cold War Arms race.

 

"Do they really not understand in Washington what this could lead to?" Interfax news agency quoted Gorbachev as saying.

 

 

A Kremlin spokesman said Russian President Vladimir Putin would seek answers about the planned withdrawal when he meets John Bolton, Trump's national security adviser, for scheduled talks in Moscow this week.

 

U.S. authorities believe Moscow is developing and has deployed a ground-launched system in breach of the INF treaty that could allow it to launch a nuclear strike on Europe at short notice. Russia has consistently denied any such violation.

 

Trump said the United States will develop the weapons unless Russia and China agree to a halt on development. China is not a party to the treaty.

 

EUROPEAN BATTLEGROUND

The arms control accord, signed by Reagan and Gorbachev in a ceremony at the White House, bans land-based medium-range nuclear missiles capable of hitting Europe or Alaska.

 

It ended a Cold War-era crisis, when the Soviet Union installed nearly 400 nuclear warheads pointed at western Europe. The United States had responded by stationing Pershing and Cruise missiles in Europe.

 

But this provoked a wave of protests from anti-nuclear campaigners, who felt the deployment turned Europe into a potential nuclear battleground.

 

In the early 1980s, hundreds of thousands of protesters gathered in Bonn, West Germany, and campaigners formed a protest camp at Greenham Common, in Britain, the site of Cruise missiles.

 

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Ryabkov, in comments reported by state-controlled RIA news agency, said if the United States withdrew, Russia would have no choice but to retaliate, including taking unspecified measures of a "military-technical nature".

 

"But we would rather things did not get that far," RIA quoted him as saying.

 

TASS news agency quoted him as saying withdrawal "would be a very dangerous step", and it was Washington and not Moscow that was failing to comply with the treaty.

 

He said the Trump administration was using the treaty in an attempt to blackmail the Kremlin, putting global security at risk. "... We will, of course, accept no ultimatums or blackmail methods," Interfax quoted him as saying.

 

British defence minister Gavin Williamson, in comments reported by the Financial Times, said London stood "resolute" behind Washington over the issue, and that the Kremlin was making a mockery of the agreement.

 

However, another NATO member, Germany, voiced misgivings.

 

German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said that for 30 years the treaty had been a pillar of Europe's security architecture. "We now urge the United States to consider the possible consequences," of quitting the pact, Maas said on Sunday.

 

Trump has in the past threatened to tear up international agreements but in the event has not carried through.

 

Republican Senator Bob Corker, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, drew a parallel with the NAFTA trade pact, which Trump threatened to tear up, before a reworked version of the deal was brokered last month.

 

"This could be somewhat like the fact that they were going to end NAFTA, and then ended up negotiating some small changes," Corker said on CNN's "State of the Union."

 

"So this could be something - just a precursor - to try to get Russia to come into compliance." Corker said quitting the treaty had not come up in a talk with Trump's Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo.

 

(Reporting by Jeff Mason; Additional reporting by Idrees Ali and Polina Devitt; Writing by Christian Lowe in Moscow; editing by Richard Balmforth)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-10-22

[Srikcir]

20 minutes ago, webfact said:

a parallel with the NAFTA trade pact, which Trump threatened to tear up, before a reworked version of the deal was brokered last month.

But brokered within the mandatory provisions of NAFTA that Trump could not tear up. NAFTA was a treaty ratified by Congress and Congress must ratify the new USMCA. Broker's "parallel" is politically generous to Trump but disingenuous to the public.

[joecoolfrog]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:12 AM, sirmud63 said:

if it wasnt for american troops you would be speaking german now , but it dosnt really matter very soon you will be speaking arabic.

I rather think that it was Russian troops who were most responsible for helping us to beat Hitler, not that mere facts will change your ignorant mindset.

Incidently your final point is even more clueless given that if you are refering to Saudi , the educated rulers all speak English, if you are refering to British muslims , the majority speak Urdu.

But as I said , lets not let facts get in the way of ignorance.

Edited October 23, 2018 by joecoolfrog

[joecoolfrog]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:59 PM, sirmud63 said:

and recent history proves my point .

Would that be Vietnam or Grenada ?

[sirmud63]

2 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

Would that be Vietnam or Grenada ?

the islamic invasion of europe,  i you hadnt noticed .

[joecoolfrog]

20 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Heck, they are intermediate range missiles. Most in America don't really care if Europe gets nuked? Nobody in my town gives a rats ass about Europe being dominated by Russia. No 3rd time for them by America as far as we are concerned. Stay with the treaty, it is not aimed at the US.

I bet the good ole boyz are also still grumbling about not being allowed to marry their cousins eh

[Tug]

Donald doesent measure up against the likes of Kennedy and the rest of our cold war leaders those hard won treaty’s shouldn’t be threatened by the likes of this dude use sanctions make them comply don’t drag us into a arms race trade war and a deficit explosion all at the same time!

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Tug said:

Donald doesent measure up against the likes of Kennedy and the rest of our cold war leaders those hard won treaty’s shouldn’t be threatened by the likes of this dude use sanctions make them comply don’t drag us into a arms race trade war and a deficit explosion all at the same time!

One big problem in this situation is that neither Trump nor Putin has experienced the horrors of real war. Both JFK and Khrushchev had memories of the WWII which also made them more hesitant to start a major conflict. 

 

Then there is also the fact that both Trump and Putin are there mainly for themselves. Not for their countries. 

[connda]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

Trump says U.S. to exit landmark nuclear arms pact, Russia threatens retaliation

This neo-brinksmanship is obviously lost on virtually everyone who didn't have the joy of hunkering down under a desk in school in 1962.

For those who are cheering on Cold War 2.0.  Ok. No problem.  I'm old enough that the idea of a global 'cleansing' isn't such a bad idea.  In 100,000 years, the Earth will be much better off.
Do I want to see that come to past?  Nope.  I want to see rapprochement.  The 'crazies in the basement' as the elder Bush called them - do not.  So - Game On!

[Foexie]

And we are going back to the stone ages with these morons. trump on top.

 

He is just looking for an excuse to please the weapon lobby and try to make everybody believe how many more jobs he created by building more rockets again now.

 

What's the use of having so many nukes? If just a few of those explode the world is finished.

 

 

[ThaiFelix]

On 10/21/2018 at 3:12 PM, sirmud63 said:

if it wasnt for american troops you would be speaking german now , but it dosnt really matter very soon you will be speaking arabic.

Hey I have a birthday party coming up soon and looking for a stand up comedian......interested?

[Trouble]

13 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

I rather think that it was Russian troops who were most responsible for helping us to beat Hitler, not that mere facts will change your ignorant mindset.

Incidently your final point is even more clueless given that if you are refering to Saudi , the educated rulers all speak English, if you are refering to British muslims , the majority speak Urdu.

But as I said , lets not let facts get in the way of ignorance.

It's interesting to note that you think Russian troops were "most" responsible for helping beat Hitler.  You might take into consideration the fact that America supplied the Russians heavily during WWII with armaments, etc.  It was the Allied troops from the West that pushed their way through North Africa and on to Italy, then launched an invasion across France, etc. to Germany. Stalin's main goal was to beat the West to Berlin and we saw that the result of his motivation was control over East Germany and Eastern Europe.  Had the Russians been the most responsible, Europe might have ended up behind the Iron Curtain. 

 

With regard to withdrawing from the treaty, if Russia is indeed violating the treaty by developing, building or deploying missiles in violation of the treaty what is Trump supposed to do?  Should the US turn a blind eye like most of Europe did to Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939. You might also like to clarify which country was Hitler's partner in that invasion as well.  As I recall they came from the East. 

[Srikcir]

22 minutes ago, Trouble said:

what is Trump supposed to do?

Maybe think carefully of all options than just making a grand move for termination?

Jeffrey Lewis, the director of the East Asia nonproliferation program at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey:

• “This is a colossal mistake. Russia gets to violate the treaty and Trump takes the blame.
• “I doubt very much that the US will deploy much that would have been prohibited by the treaty. Russia, though, will go gangbusters.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/20/trump-us-nuclear-arms-treaty-russia

 

[Small Joke]

I understand global warming at last. 

Buggerlugs and Rasputin will have their hotheads in bunkers warm us all by several thousand degrees in just 4 minutes give or take.

Then humanity can exit the planet citing nuclear vaporization. 

[Guest]

When you drive a Ferrari, you can enjoy the ride and drive slowly. 

 

(everybody knows your strength, so there is no reason to be boisterous).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Small Joke said:

I understand global warming at last. 

Buggerlugs and Rasputin will have their hotheads in bunkers warm us all by several thousand degrees in just 4 minutes give or take.

Then humanity can exit the planet citing nuclear vaporization. 

No. The WWIII is over within 30 minutes and 1 hour. Few Boomers will act and make sure of total destruction, after that initial one hour, when we all know we are going to die.