Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[marcusarelus]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're making stuff up. Only a few embassies won't be issuing letters at this point. 

Argentina  Austria  Bahrain  Bangladesh  Bhutan  Brazil  Brunei  Cambodia  Canada  Chile China  Colombia  Cuba  Czech Republic  Denmark  Egypt  Finland  France  Germany (Detail)  Greece  Holy See  Hungary  India  Indonesia (Detail)

Iran  Ireland  Israel  Italy  Japan  Kazakhstan  Kenya  Kuwait  Laos  Libya  Luxembourg  Malaysia  Maldives  Mexico  Mongolia  Morocco  Myanmar    Nepal  Netherlands  New Zealand  Nigeria  North Korea  Norway  Oman  Pakistan  Panama

Peru  Philippines  Poland  Portugal  Qatar  Romania  Russia  Saudi Arabia  Singapore  Slovakia  South Africa  South Korea  Spain  Sri Lanka  Sweden (Detail)   Switzerland  Timor-Leste  Turkey  Ukraine  United Arab Emirates Vietnam           I assume the above will issue letters of income?

Edited November 8, 2018 by marcusarelus

[merijn]

15 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Argentina  Austria  Bahrain  Bangladesh  Bhutan  Brazil  Brunei  Cambodia  Canada  Chile China  Colombia  Cuba  Czech Republic  Denmark  Egypt  Finland  France  Germany (Detail)  Greece  Holy See  Hungary  India  Indonesia (Detail)

Iran  Ireland  Israel  Italy  Japan  Kazakhstan  Kenya  Kuwait  Laos  Libya  Luxembourg  Malaysia  Maldives  Mexico  Mongolia  Morocco  Myanmar    Nepal  Netherlands  New Zealand  Nigeria  North Korea  Norway  Oman  Pakistan  Panama

Peru  Philippines  Poland  Portugal  Qatar  Romania  Russia  Saudi Arabia  Singapore  Slovakia  South Africa  South Korea  Spain  Sri Lanka  Sweden (Detail)   Switzerland  Timor-Leste  Turkey  Ukraine  United Arab Emirates Vietnam           I assume the above will issue letters of income?

Unless otherwise stated Yes.

[elviajero]

20 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Argentina  Austria  Bahrain  Bangladesh  Bhutan  Brazil  Brunei  Cambodia  Canada  Chile China  Colombia  Cuba  Czech Republic  Denmark  Egypt  Finland  France  Germany (Detail)  Greece  Holy See  Hungary  India  Indonesia (Detail)

Iran  Ireland  Israel  Italy  Japan  Kazakhstan  Kenya  Kuwait  Laos  Libya  Luxembourg  Malaysia  Maldives  Mexico  Mongolia  Morocco  Myanmar    Nepal  Netherlands  New Zealand  Nigeria  North Korea  Norway  Oman  Pakistan  Panama

Peru  Philippines  Poland  Portugal  Qatar  Romania  Russia  Saudi Arabia  Singapore  Slovakia  South Africa  South Korea  Spain  Sri Lanka  Sweden (Detail)   Switzerland  Timor-Leste  Turkey  Ukraine  United Arab Emirates Vietnam           I assume the above will issue letters of income?

Letters that almost certainly won’t be accepted unless they meet the new requirements requested by immigration to confirm (validate) the income.

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Letters that almost certainly won’t be accepted unless they meet the new requirements requested by immigration to confirm (validate) the income.

Again, it's NOT a new requirement.

Verification of income is printed on the Bangkok Immigration Website since at least 2011 !

 

 

[KiChakayan]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

And do tell us how this will be fixed.  I know transfer every month. Why transfer-  I can write a check for 65K from my Us account- it will clear in 15 days-proof is copy of check- foreign.

 

I have 800K in US Travelers checks- that were bought in America- verified by the check and receipt- I can cash 65K every month.

 

I can arrive at Bangkok airport with  $50K in cash- declare it at the airport which proves I brought it from abroad on my flight- I can then deposit it in a Thai Bank account.

 

 

You know, our days, there are such things as wire transfer. Takes me about 3 minutes to make one, from my Swiss UBS account to my Bangkok Bank account, while in bed with my wife giving me a cuddle. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, KiChakayan said:

ou know, our days, there are such things as wire transfer. Takes me about 3 minutes to make one, from my Swiss UBS account to my Bangkok Bank account, while in bed with my wife giving me a cuddle

Your wire transfer takes 24 hours to arrive. I can stand outside my Thai Bank- stick in my US Debit Card to the ATM slot and have 65K in my hand within minutes- then open the bank door and in another 5 minutes it's in my bank account.  Bank transfers are somewhat outdated unless it is  large amounts of money.  I can get out $4,000 per day. However, up to you.

[Pattaya46]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Your wire transfer takes 24 hours to arrive.// stick in my US Debit Card //

For me wire transfers arrive overnight; 6-8 hours max.

And the message of KiChakayan above

certainly addressed the fact you were talking of cheque, not card... 

 

[elviajero]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Again, it's NOT a new requirement.

Verification of income is printed on the Bangkok Immigration Website since at least 2011 !

 

The “new requirement” is the enforcement that the embassies should confirm they’ve validated the income.

[mogandave]

For me wire transfers arrive overnight; 6-8 hours max.
And the message of KiChakayan above
certainly addressed the fact you were talking of cheque, not card... 
 

Which takes a month

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The “new requirement” is the enforcement that the embassies should confirm they’ve validated the income.

The word used by US Embassy is Verification, not Validation

"The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income" (cf post #1)

so the same word that was in the Immigration requirements for many many years.

 

If some embassies didn't respect this old requirement, I find nothing wrong in TI reminding them the rule  (or enforcing the rule if you prefer this word), but I do not call that a "new requirement".

[gaviny]

Your wire transfer takes 24 hours to arrive. I can stand outside my Thai Bank- stick in my US Debit Card to the ATM slot and have 65K in my hand within minutes- then open the bank door and in another 5 minutes it's in my bank account.  Bank transfers are somewhat outdated unless it is  large amounts of money.  I can get out $4,000 per day. However, up to you.

I find using a Debit Card in Thailand compared to OFX Money Transfer from Oz is that you get a lower exchange rate , however OfX takes about 2 or 3 days to land in my Thai account.

Sent from my Redmi Note 6 Pro using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mogandave]

Your wire transfer takes 24 hours to arrive. I can stand outside my Thai Bank- stick in my US Debit Card to the ATM slot and have 65K in my hand within minutes- then open the bank door and in another 5 minutes it's in my bank account.  Bank transfers are somewhat outdated unless it is  large amounts of money.  I can get out $4,000 per day. However, up to you.

 

Yes, driving or walking down to the bank to use my no-fees ATM, drawing out cash and then going inside (between 10:00 & 6:00, M-F) to fill out a form and redeposit the cash into your Thai account sounds much more convenient then spending less than a minute on my phone any time, anywhere in the world.

 

Kind of reminds me of the SF theater Johnny English ad for their movie card....

[mogandave]

I charge most everything I buy on a U S credit card, and when I need to top up my cash just use my Thai ATM card. I have used my Fidelity card but don’t see much point in it.

The K-Bank app has sure come a long way for transfers and bill pays and whatnot

[4myr]

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this. 

[Thaidream]

30 minutes ago, mogandave said:

s, driving or walking down to the bank to use my no-fees ATM, drawing out cash and then going inside (between 10:00 & 6:00, M-F) to fill out a form and redeposit the cash into your Thai account sounds much more convenient then spending less than a minute on my phone any time, anywhere in the world.

I can walk to the ATM and the bank- but at the end of the day- who really cares- up to everyone.

[mogandave]

I can walk to the ATM and the bank- but at the end of the day- who really cares- up to everyone.

I said drive or walk yes?

I would assume if you’re going to withdraw the money, then deposit it, you would use the ATM at the bank...

I doubt anyone cares regardless of the time of day.

[Pib]

Yeap...Me prefer to walk into the bank branch located in the Lotus Mall I visit numerous times per week.  Walk into the bank branch, usually no queue, go to the bank teller, do a counter withdrawal for Bt150K (approx $4.5K USD) and have it deposited directly into my bank account...pretty much a combo transaction...no money ever touches my hands or the bank teller's hands.  Takes around 5-10 minutes...closer to the 5 than the 10. 

 

My US debit card is a no foreign transaction fee card so no fees there...no fee by the Thai bank for the counter withdrawal...and I get the full card-network exchange rate that is plus or minus a hair of the Thai bank TT Buyng Rate used for incoming transfers.  But that counter withdrawal does not get coded as an international transfer of money as it's really two separate transactions with the first transaction not recorded in your passbook/statement...only the deposit is recorded.  And it's recorded like any old off-the-street deposit...not as funds coming from outside Thailand.  So, if TI wants to see the passbook reflect the funds being imported, then this method would not work.  But it sure works fine and fast (and cheap) to get money.  Then I continue on into Lotus to do my grocery shopping.

 

Now if I did an international wire (SWIFT) from one of my US banks that fee would be $25-45 plus the Thai bank receiving fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max)...and when it arrives in a 1 to 3 business days it would be record as imported money....would work if TI wants to see the passbook reflect the money was imported.

 

But me like using my card to get money within minutes with zero fees.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Pib

[pontious]

36 minutes ago, 4myr said:

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this. 

So that is a stat dec -No verification. That is what the BE did.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pontious
add

[mogandave]

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.
 
For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.
 
From the embassy's website:
 
"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."
 
You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:
 
"To: Immigration Office
The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: 
 
has declared to have residence and to receive a monthly income of as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.
 
The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.
 
For the Ambassador,

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"
 
Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this. 

Probably cost $500 to get something like that from the US...

[Thaidream]

Just now, mogandave said:

doubt anyone cares regardless of the time of day.

I know I don't as long as the money comes out.  Maybe Thai imm will make a rule that says I have to take the money out only during certain hours and certain denominations; count it in front of a certified representative; then have it certified; then take a picture and send this to the Embassy who certifies it was taken out at a certain time and counted  correctly and then stamp;ed by the Embassy notary.  Yes- I have gone insane from this nonsense.

[Pib]

53 minutes ago, 4myr said:

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this. 

Still sounds like a stat dec/income affidavit used by the UK/US/AU embassies except with just different wording. 

 

I don't see any indication the Dutch embassy actually verified the documents provided as income proof....and just looking at docs is not verification.  In today's world of computers, printers, scanners, and editing software fake docs are easy to make.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Pib

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

But me like using my card to get money within minutes with zero fees.

Finally- someone who knows what I  am talking about.  May the blessing of Ishkabible  fall upon you and yours

[elviajero]

4 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

The word used by US Embassy is Verification, not Validation

"The Royal Thai Government requires actual verification of income" (cf post #1)

so the same word that was in the Immigration requirements for many many years.

 

If some embassies didn't respect this old requirement, I find nothing wrong in TI reminding them the rule  (or enforcing the rule if you prefer this word), but I do not call that a "new requirement".

You’re just being pedantic. Validate is a synonym of verify.

 

Immigration now insisting that emabassies verify/validate income makes the validation a ‘new requirement’. There are lots of long standing rules/regulations that aren’t enforced, or start to be enforced, and this is just another example.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

And do tell us how this will be fixed.  I know transfer every month. Why transfer-  I can ...

You listed other ways money can be brought in.  If any of those can appear on a Thai bank-statement as easily identified as "foreign funds imported", then you should be OK.  If not, they could fail to work, because the IO will refuse to look at anything beyond the documents provided-by, and stamped-by, a Thai bank.

 

The customs-document for declared funds on-arrival is a "next best" thing - in that it is an official document from a Thai official, but I could still see that being rejected.

 

Of course, all this assumes the income-method survives at all, per what is being suggested (without clarity) in the 3 embassy's statements.

 

I'm not claiming it is "fair" or "right" to ignore other ways of bringing in foreign-funds - only that it is the most practical / probable system I can envisage TI using, based on what has been suggested thus-far.

 

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

... And the current police order has never said the money has to be sourced from abroad.

True, but they may get around that by saying they can only "verify" what Thai-banks provide.  

 

I would not believe too much of what is being said to-date.  According to some posters in these threads, currently claiming to "know" what is to come, those on serial Tourist Visas were to be forced-out months ago, per their "inside-sources."  As that hasn't happened country-wide - and only sporadically at some airports, clearly many such "inside-sources" may only be regional authorities.

 

That said, I don't fault those who have started monthly transfers, which are clearly indicated as "imported money" on Thai bank-statements / bank-books, in case that does become the "new standard" for applicants who do not have an embassy-letter.  All that is potentially lost by doing this, is possibly a slightly higher xfer-fee, and a surplus of funds in Thailand that may need to be repatriated at some point, if in excess of what is really needed for them to live here.

[Pib]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Finally- someone who knows what I  am talking about.  May the blessing of Ishkabible  fall upon you and yours

I just use that method to get my day-to-day living money.  For extension of stay purposes I've used the Bt800K deposit method for around 8 years.

[mogandave]

Still sounds like a stat dec/income affidavit used by the UK/US/AU embassies except with just different wording. 
 
I don't see any indication the Dutch embassy actually verified the documents provided as income proof....and just looking at docs is not verification.  In today's world of computers, printers, scanners, and editing software fake docs are easy to make.

I today’s world of......it’s pretty easy to check a lot of that stuff.

[JackThompson]

 

7 minutes ago, Pib said:

Still sounds like a stat dec/income affidavit used by the UK/US/AU embassies except with just different wording.  

 

I don't see any indication the Dutch embassy actually verified the documents provide as income proof....and just looking at docs is not verification.  In today's world of computers, printers, scanners, and editing software fake docs are easy to make. 

More like what the British Embassy was/is doing, rather than USA/Aus - unless the Dutch Embassy personnel are calling the banks, brokerages, tax-offices, accountants of offshore-corporations, etc - and "verifying" that each of the documents provided reflects what those sources independently verify. 

 

And I suppose those folks who are verifying the figures for each type of income for each applicant would need to provide their verification of the figures under-oath.  But even then, one's shifty-accountant in BVI / Caymans / where-ever could be lying - since we applicants are assumed to be lying now, with our sworn-statements.  After all, what are the 'odds' that the guy in where-ever will be prosecuted by Dutch embassy officials - right? 

 

If not doing all that, and even if they were, how would they "verify" the documents submitted are genuine? Like you said about computers, printers, etc - faking would be child's play.

 

Some might say, at this point, "Well, golly, then 800K in the bank is the only way!"  The problem with this assessment, is that faking "in the bank" money is currently done on an industrial-scale in Thailand, by agents, with immigration's blessing - now, and going back decades - which shows how ridiculous this entire exercise in "verifying" money/income to be "genuine" is, in the first place, if immigration is involved in the process. 

 

The stat-doc embassy-letters were actually The Most Honest system, in terms of the lesser likelihood of fraud - under penalty of prison-time.  They were better than "money-in-the-bank" (faked by agents), or "show deposits" (faked by rotating money).

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The stat-doc embassy-letters were actually The Most Honest system, in terms of the lesser likelihood of fraud - under penalty of prison-time.  They were better than "money-in-the-bank" (faked by agents), or "show deposits" (faked by rotating money).

Ah yes- a statement of fact  that makes perfect sense- may the blessings of Iskabible fall upon you  and yours and may your teeth NOT fallout before Thanksgiving.

[Pib]

13 minutes ago, mogandave said:

I today’s world of......it’s pretty easy to check a lot of that stuff.

 

The US Embassy has no capability to check with the govt agencies that pay pensions such as the SSA, DFAS, etc....or financial companies that pay pensions/make payments....nor to check with the IRS to see what a person's tax return says.  I don't know why people want to think such....it's not like in the movies/TV shows where they pull up info even showing your underwear size in a few seconds.   And I'm sure the embassy has no one on staff which can tell whether an income doc is fake or real just by looking at it.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Pib

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

I don't know why people want to think such....it's not like in the movies/TV shows where they pull up info even showing your underwear size in a few seconds.   And I'm sure the embassy has no one on staff which can tell where an income docs is fake or real just by looking at it.

Agreed!  Although I am willing to release my underwear size as long as Thai immigration will waive the 800K in the bank!