Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[HAL9000]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

OK. A highly unusual report. 

There have been a few other isolated reports of immigration offices accepting income documents instead of the embassy affidavit. Of course it's unknown whether this is a local idiosyncrasy or an immigration approved method.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

They may regret pressuring the embassies into verifying something the embassies knew was impossible for them to do. Could make queues to do extension renewals a mile long if they have to wade through unfamiliar documents.

I brought this up on the earlier UK/American letter topic.  Yes, imagine the problem of wading through all the documents and statements.  Some people are planning to take ATM receipts!!!  And meanwhile, while you could get the letter say a week or so before you go in, now, if I understand things correctly, you will need the certified bank statement on the same day you apply for your extension (I hope this isn't true).  That means the mornings will be spent at the Bank in line and then everyone needing the extension and bank statement will probably go in during the afternoon. Long, Long, Long lines. Nobody going home until 10 pm.  Ought to make the Thai immigration staff really friendly and happy.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, zydeco said:

How can you tell if you are receiving your deposit to Bangkok Bank in IAT?  

Banking forum

[Russell17au]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Because their current list of documentation requirements for extsnion using the income method states an Embassy letter is required, and 2 major Embassies no longer provide those letters and apparently discussed this ahead of time with TI and were assurred that people would still be able to get extensions using the income method, but there has been no announcement of the process yet.

But it is not up to the TI to change, it is up to the different embassies to supply the documentation that is required by TI. It would only take the embassies to have the applicants produce verifiable proof of income before the embassy will supply the letter. In the case of Australia anyone that is on a pension can download an income statement from the Australian government which is a verifiable proof of income. It is up to the embassies to change this

[HAL9000]

9 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Because their current list of documentation requirements for extsnion using the income method states an Embassy letter is required, and 2 major Embassies no longer provide those letters and apparently discussed this ahead of time with TI and were assurred that people would still be able to get extensions using the income method, but there has been no announcement of the process yet.

Note that the US Embassy notice links to Thai immigration to see the specifics of the "timing and conditions" of the proof of income documentation. Under Required Documents for a marriage extension, the immigration website links to a file called "wife.pdf". The link is currently broken and redirects to this page:

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/not_found

Under Required Documents for a retirement extension, there is no link, but only (translated) text that says:

Proof of income such as a pension or interest. Or dividend, etc.

[blackhorse]

But it is not up to the TI to change, it is up to the different embassies to supply the documentation that is required by TI. It would only take the embassies to have the applicants produce verifiable proof of income before the embassy will supply the letter. In the case of Australia anyone that is on a pension can download an income statement from the Australian government which is a verifiable proof of income. It is up to the embassies to change this

You can't request proof with a stat dec. The very nature of that legal document is that no proof is required.
They would need to change to the embassy supplying its own letter guaranteeing your bank book and bank letter.
Doubt that is gonna happen but who knows

[pontious]

5 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

But it is not up to the TI to change, it is up to the different embassies to supply the documentation that is required by TI. It would only take the embassies to have the applicants produce verifiable proof of income before the embassy will supply the letter. In the case of Australia anyone that is on a pension can download an income statement from the Australian government which is a verifiable proof of income. It is up to the embassies to change this

No Embassy can verify - many people have numerous income streams not just gov pensions. If the embassy asked my pension provider to verify I get xyz they would be told to bugger  off.

[bruyes811]

So if I am clear about this, the letter does not say that you must have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank. All it says is that the U.S. Embassy will not supply the affidavit. Therefore proof can still be given to show that you have the required income to support getting the visa. It will now entail getting valid statements from your income sources. I agree, this is a bullshit turn of events, but it is not the end of retirement visas based on income verification.

I wonder what prompted the U.S. Embassy to stop issuing the affidavit? 

[pontious]

6 minutes ago, bruyes811 said:

So if I am clear about this, the letter does not say that you must have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank. All it says is that the U.S. Embassy will not supply the affidavit. Therefore proof can still be given to show that you have the required income to support getting the visa. It will now entail getting valid statements from your income sources. I agree, this is a bullshit turn of events, but it is not the end of retirement visas based on income verification.

I wonder what prompted the U.S. Embassy to stop issuing the affidavit? 

And what proof will you show? Everyone will have a zillion bits of  paper. It a'int gonna happen. Bits of paper that immigration do not understand is not verification

Edited October 27, 2018 by pontious

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, bruyes811 said:

So if I am clear about this, the letter does not say that you must have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank. All it says is that the U.S. Embassy will not supply the affidavit. Therefore proof can still be given to show that you have the required income to support getting the visa. It will now entail getting valid statements from your income sources. ..

Except that to date Immigration regs state you have to show an Embassy letter as proof and has not announced it will accept anything else. We assume they will, but they have no yet, and it is unknown what it will prove to be that they will accept.

 

Income method is not gone, but it may get harder to substantiate and may also start to require that the full 65K actually be brought into Thailand, not the case before.

[pontious]

8 minutes ago, bruyes811 said:

I wonder what prompted the U.S. Embassy to stop issuing the affidavit? 

Because they cannot VERIFY it.

[zydeco]

26 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Banking forum

Could somebody be a little more specific. I've already been through three topics and finally gave out after going through page 7 of the last one. Anybody have a link on how to tell if your Social Security transfer is being done in IAT or not?

[Russell17au]

8 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

You can't request proof with a stat dec. The very nature of that legal document is that no proof is required.
They would need to change to the embassy supplying its own letter guaranteeing your bank book and bank letter.
Doubt that is gonna happen but who knows

I did not say anything about the stat dec, all I said was that any Australian who receives a pension can download their pension income statement which is verifiable proof of income. An American can do the same thing with their social security pension or their military pension. Nothing has been said about bank books and this is where there is a big problem because people are not reading the posts properly and then they make their own assumptions which are usually wrong

 

10 minutes ago, pontious said:

No Embassy can verify - many people have numerous income streams not just gov pensions. If the embassy asked my pension provider to verify I get xyz they would be told to bugger  off.

It is up to you the applicant to supply your embassy with verifiable income documents.

If you do not supply your embassy with verifiable income documents then the embassy does not supply you with a letter of income. It is better that this is handled at the embassy level and not at the immigration level. It would mean that the embassies would have to change their documentation to suit, but it could be done.

[rainwater]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:57 AM, Nyezhov said:

I guess the issue is: what does the Thai Government want? Do we know yet? Is the combination method dead?

Is it possible to show an IRA account as income? If my SS pension is less than 800k baht, can top up my Thai bank to meet the 800k requirement if they don't accept IRA accounts?

Who knows???

Better be ready to move more funds here. 

[pontious]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

I did not say anything about the stat dec, all I said was that any Australian who receives a pension can download their pension income statement which is verifiable proof of income. An American can do the same thing with their social security pension or their military pension. Nothing has been said about bank books and this is where there is a big problem because people are not reading the posts properly and then they make their own assumptions which are usually wrong

 

It is up to you the applicant to supply your embassy with verifiable income documents.

If you do not supply your embassy with verifiable income documents then the embassy does not supply you with a letter of income. It is better that this is handled at the embassy level and not at the immigration level. It would mean that the embassies would have to change their documentation to suit, but it could be done.

The BE has always needed proof of income - they quite rightly say they cannot verify it. No embassy can.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, rainwater said:

Is it possible to show an IRA account as income? If my SS pension is less than 800k baht, can top up my Thai bank to meet the 800k requirement if they don't accept IRA accounts?

Who knows???

Better be ready to move more funds here. 

Nobody knows about such things yet!
The embassy letter is still required. 

Beyond that, we're waiting.

I know what you're saying about IRA accounts. Withdrawals are reportable INCOME for traditional but not taxed if Roth.

As if Thai immigration officers will know or should be expected to know such details?!?

I think to most people a withdrawal from an account will be seen as simply that, just a withdrawal, not income.

But if the standard is about TRANSFERING 65K baht per month into THAILAND (which we're hearing a lot of noise about) the origin of the "income" will likely be totally irrelevant.

 

[marcusarelus]

8 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Could somebody be a little more specific. I've already been through three topics and finally gave out after going through page 7 of the last one. Anybody have a link on how to tell if your Social Security transfer is being done in IAT or not?

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1050250-major-change-eff-1-apr-19-in-bangkok-bank-ach-transfers/?page=23&tab=comments#comment-13489621

 

[blackhorse]

It is up to you the applicant to supply your embassy with verifiable income documents. If you do not supply your embassy with verifiable income documents then the embassy does not supply you with a letter of income. It is better that this is handled at the embassy level and not at the immigration level. It would mean that the embassies would have to change their documentation to suit, but it could be done. 

 

"I did not say anything about the stat dec, all I said was that any Australian who receives a pension can download their pension income statement which is verifiable proof of income. An American can do the same thing with their social security pension or their military pension. Nothing has been said about bank books and this is where there is a big problem because people are not reading the posts properly and then they make their own assumptions which are usually wrong"  

 

 

Verifiable to who? TI are not requesting it and the Australian embassy are not requesting it.

 

Your just muddying the waters by introducing something that centerlink Australia is not even a part of. Why even bring it up? Nothing to do with the USA what so ever.. They are NOT Interested in verification or did you miss the OP?

 

 

 

 

 

[Russell17au]

3 minutes ago, pontious said:

The BE has always needed proof of income - they quite rightly say they cannot verify it. No embassy can.

It is up to YOU the applicant to supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income. If you do not supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income then they do not give you the letter of income that is needed by TI.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It is up to YOU the applicant to supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income. If you do not supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income then they do not give you the letter of income that is needed by TI.

I believe the BE and American embassy said they don't care what proof you give them they will not give you a letter. 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It is up to YOU the applicant to supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income. If you do not supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income then they do not give you the letter of income that is needed by TI.

Come again? The U.S. has required absolutely nothing. If you bring it, they won't want to see it. I'm not revealing anything secret. Thai immigration has been well aware of the policy for I assume as long as it's existed.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Jingthing

[pontious]

3 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It is up to YOU the applicant to supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income. If you do not supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income then they do not give you the letter of income that is needed by TI.

I send them the Pension letters I get annually from my pension providers. They cannot VERIFY them. How do you suggest I can VERIFY them.?

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

"I did not say anything about the stat dec, all I said was that any Australian who receives a pension can download their pension income statement which is verifiable proof of income. An American can do the same thing with their social security pension or their military pension. Nothing has been said about bank books and this is where there is a big problem because people are not reading the posts properly and then they make their own assumptions which are usually wrong"

Verifiable to who? TI are not requesting it and the Australian embassy are not requesting it.

Your just muddying the waters by introducing something that centerlink Australia is not even a part of. Why even bring it up?

Can you not understand anything? Any Australian who is on a pension can download their CentreLink income statement which is printed on Commonwealth of Australia letter head and that is verifiable proof of income. My God some people just cannot grasp anything. We are talking about the verification of income from the various embassies because of what has happened with both BE and USE and what I am saying is that if the embassies change their ways and I mean all embassies and make the applicant supply the verifiable proof of income before the embassy supplies the letter for TI. That to me is a good solution to the problem

[rainwater]

6 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

It is up to YOU the applicant to supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income. If you do not supply your embassy with the verifiable proof of income then they do not give you the letter of income that is needed by TI.

You don't deal with the Embassy any more, from the Embassy letter: "As of January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy will cease to provide the income affidavit for the purpose of applying for Thai retirement visas"

[pontious]

2 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

receives a pension can download their pension income statement which is verifiable proof of income.

Utter rubbish.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, Russell17au said:

Can you not understand anything? Any Australian who is on a pension can download their CentreLink income statement which is printed on Commonwealth of Australia letter head and that is verifiable proof of income. My God some people just cannot grasp anything. We are talking about the verification of income from the various embassies because of what has happened with both BE and USE and what I am saying is that if the embassies change their ways and I mean all embassies and make the applicant supply the verifiable proof of income before the embassy supplies the letter for TI. That to me is a good solution to the problem

That would mean the embassies having to do some work that they don't want to do anymore.  Therein lies the problem.  The Americans and the Brits would not have done this unless the Aussies were also going to go along.  That would make them lose face and everyone knows the Americans and Brits never want to lose face.

[JackThompson]

 

6 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

The market cap for Bangkok Bank is around Baht 400,000,000,000.

 

Do you really think having a handful of farangs depositing Baht 400,000 or Baht 800,000 and drawing it down from month to month is really going to appear as more than a rounding error. 

Without getting too complicated - and I am not a fiat-currency/ banking-specialist - every baht on-deposit provides a multiple of that amount in permitted lending ability (ratio being regulated by the nation's central-bank) - which is money "brought into existence from nothing" when a loan is made.  So, there is a multiplier-effect.  

 

Then there is the currency-exchange factor, where incoming foreign-currency can be used to offset foreign purchases.  Strong Western currencies are very helpful, in this regard. 

 

But whether bank-interests are a primary motivation for the policy change, or banks were asking for it (or even need it), I have no idea.

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, rainwater said:

You don't deal with the Embassy any more, from the Embassy letter: "As of January 1, 2019, the U.S. Embassy will cease to provide the income affidavit for the purpose of applying for Thai retirement visas"

I know but TI still want that letter from the embassy and this is one way that it could possibly be done by all the embassies.

I give up on all of this. Nobody is even looking at anything else but for TI to change their laws to suit you. Well it just might not happen because no other country would change their immigration laws just for a few people who cannot even think outside of the box at maybe another solution to the problem.

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

Without getting too complicated - and I am not a fiat-currency/ banking-specialist - every baht on-deposit provides a multiple of that amount in permitted lending ability (ratio being regulated by the nation's central-bank) - which is money "brought into existence from nothing" when a loan is made.  So, there is a multiplier-effect.  

 

Then there is the currency-exchange factor, where incoming foreign-currency can be used to offset foreign purchases.  Strong Western currencies are very helpful, in this regard. 

 

But whether bank-interests are a primary motivation for the policy change, or banks were asking for it (or even need it), I have no idea.

No.

[HAL9000]

Actually, the US Embassy FAQ says "a local bank statement showing a monthly deposit of at least 65,000 Thai Baht."

 

It does not, however, say whether it has to be a foreign transfer or if a cash deposit is adequate.

 

On the other hand, the Thai immigration website says, "Proof of income such as a pension or interest. Or dividend, etc.", so they may accept our government letters, etc.

Edited October 27, 2018 by HAL9000