mtls2005 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Attorney George Conway, husband of Kellyanne, and Neal Katyal co-wrote an op-ed piece on the President's "suggestion": Trump’s proposal to end birthright citizenship is unconstitutional Sometimes the Constitution’s text is plain as day and bars what politicians seek to do. That’s the case with President Trump’s proposal to end “birthright citizenship” through an executive order. Such a move would be unconstitutional and would certainly be challenged. And the challengers would undoubtedly win. Trump has long argued that birthright citizenship for the children of parents not legally in the United States should be abolished. “It’s ridiculous. And it has to end,” he told Axios in an interview released Tuesday, in which he disclosed his plan for the unilateral action. But at its core, birthright citizenship is what our 14th Amendment is all about, bridging the Declaration of Independence’s promise that “all men are created equal” with a constitutional commitment that all those born in the United States share in that equality. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-proposal-to-end-birthright-citizenship-is-unconstitutional/2018/10/30/4615ab5c-dc85-11e8-b3f0-62607289efee_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ee14d8f374ab United States v. Wong Kim Ark https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649 Edited October 31, 2018 by mtls2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi49jr Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 So the constitution is just a 'guideline' that can easily be changed in this instance, but rock-solid and carved in stone when it comes to the right to bear arms? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puccini Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said: It sure gives the Anti-Trumpsters a reason to post and beat their drums. I doubt that this is the reason why Trump made this announcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, heybruce said: So Trump is now claiming he can change the US Constitution with an executive order. Did someone tell him about Prayut's Article 44 powers? Those who think this is a good idea should consider the consequences. If this President can repeal a constitutional amendment through executive order, so can future presidents. The next President might decide to repeal the second amendment. Or a Christian teetotaler might repeal the 21st amendment and bring back Prohibition. Does anyone know if Mike Pence drinks? If you want to end birthright citizenship you have to modify or repeal the 14th amendment. End of story. Yeah, that’s a really bad idea, but what Trump is claiming is subtly different than that. What Trump is claiming is not that he can change the Constitution but that the 14th Amendment is being interpreted incorrectly. His theory sounds pretty thin to me but Trump could use an executive order denying citizenship to the American born children of illegal immigrants to force the Supreme Court’s hand and make it explicitly rule on a case involving parents who are both in the US illegally. The landmark Supreme Court case of 1898 involved the child of non-citizens who were legally in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 16 minutes ago, Srinivas said: A constitutional amendment is not needed as it is up to courts interpretation. This would defnitely remove some incentive to migration via child birth. That said, tackling immigration reform was a campaign pledge . That may have been his intent, but that is not the wording of the amendment. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Courts may take into account the intent of the authors of amendments, but not to the degree of completely over-ruling the very clear wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAKAPALITA Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Oh that nasty Mr Trump. Why doesnt he follow Europe , let all the Shit in and give them House ,Money,and ignore those who built USA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, suzannegoh said: Yeah, that’s a really bad idea, but what Trump is claiming is subtly different than that. What Trump is claiming is not that he can change the Constitution but that the 14th Amendment is being interpreted incorrectly. His theory sounds pretty thin to me but Trump could use an executive order denying citizenship to the American born children of illegal immigrants to force the Supreme Court’s hand and make it explicitly rule on a case involving parents who are both in the US illegally. The landmark Supreme Court case of 1898 involved the child of non-citizens who were legally in the US. So his intent is to initiate a futile attempt to get a Supreme Court ruling that is clearly at odds with the wording of the 14th amendment. Seems like pre-election smoke and mirrors to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puccini Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 3 hours ago, mtls2005 said: ...Didn't Thailand even offer this prior to 1972? Yes, Thailand operated a system of pure Jus soli prior to 1972. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said: Oh that nasty Mr Trump. Why doesnt he follow Europe , let all the Shit in and give them House ,Money,and ignore those who built USA. In a constitutional democracy the President is expected to follow the constitution. Did you know that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said: Oh that nasty Mr Trump. Why doesnt he follow Europe , let all the Shit in and give them House ,Money,and ignore those who built USA. Who built the USA? You mean all the descendants of immigrants? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAKAPALITA Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, heybruce said: In a constitutional democracy the President is expected to follow the constitution. Did you know that? Want that drafted before Islam turned up.?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, heybruce said: So his intent is to initiate a futile attempt to get a Supreme Court ruling that is clearly at odds with the wording of the 14th amendment. Seems like pre-election smoke and mirrors to me. Pre-election smoke & mirrors is right. I don't think his intent is to do it, but to float the spectre of it and get everyone excited. Trump usually benefits politically when everyone is so upset that they stop listening to each other. And, once again, everyone is taking the bait. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAKAPALITA Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Becker said: Who built the USA? You mean all the descendants of immigrants? Well done , those who turned up to nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becker Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said: Want that drafted before Islam turned up.?. Are you drunk? That reply only makes sense if you're totally wasted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srinivas Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, heybruce said: That may have been his intent, but that is not the wording of the amendment. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Courts may take into account the intent of the authors of amendments, but not to the degree of completely over-ruling the very clear wording. no amendment to 14th needed. Just like interpretations, restrictions placed on second amendment without changing it. Anyway its a hot potato for midterms and the Democrats have to argue the opposite side to their tax paying constituents while the county, city,state budgets, pension obligations are under severe stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said: Want that drafted before Islam turned up.?. Are you arguing that the US Constitution is obsolete and should be ignored? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srinivas Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, suzannegoh said: Pre-election smoke & mirrors is right. I don't think his intent is to do it, but to float the spectre of it and get everyone excited. Trump usually benefits politically when everyone is so upset that they stop listening to each other. And, once again, everyone is taking the bait. This will be a tricky issue for democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzannegoh Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Srinivas said: no amendment to 14th needed. Just like interpretations, restrictions placed on second amendment without changing it. Anyway its a hot potato for midterms and the Democrats have to argue the opposite side to their tax paying constituents while the county, city,state budgets, pension obligations are under severe stress. Considering that the main purpose was to unambiguously give freed slaves the right to citizenship, it’s understandable that the authors of the amendment wouldn’t have put in an exclusion for children of parents who were in the US illegally. Had they done that southern states would have come up with creative ways to categorize former slaves as being illegals. Edited October 31, 2018 by suzannegoh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Srinivas said: no amendment to 14th needed. Just like interpretations, restrictions placed on second amendment without changing it. Anyway its a hot potato for midterms and the Democrats have to argue the opposite side to their tax paying constituents while the county, city,state budgets, pension obligations are under severe stress. The second amendment is sufficiently vague to be interpreted many ways. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States..." is pretty clear. But you are correct that Trump's intent is to make the election as much about immigration as possible. His only interest in birthright citizenship is as a tool to rev up his base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Srinivas said: This will be a tricky issue for democrats. Not really. They are framing it as Trump defying the US Constitution, which he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGareth2 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 5 hours ago, JAG said: Well Mr Trump and his progeny will surely be unaffected, wasn't his mum an illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srinivas Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, heybruce said: But you are correct that Trump's intent is to make the election as much about immigration as possible. His only interest in birthright citizenship is as a tool to rev up his base. Democrats no different. They are no angels either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srinivas Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, heybruce said: Not really. They are framing it as Trump defying the US Constitution, which he is. So the democrats are strict constitutionalists now lol funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Srinivas said: So the democrats are strict constitutionalists now lol funny If the Republicans want to argue otherwise, they will have to come up with an example of the Democrats pushing something that is clearly unconstitutional. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esqy Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Gay marriage??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 8 hours ago, Credo said: “You know, as a conservative, I’m a believer in following the plain text of the Constitution, and I think in this case the 14th Amendment is pretty clear, and that would involve a very, very lengthy constitutional process,” Ryan said. Yes, almost but not quite as long as the very, very, very lengthy constitutional process to legislate term limits for the nominally elected, DC swamp creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 2 hours ago, HAKAPALITA said: Oh that nasty Mr Trump. Why doesnt he follow Europe , let all the Shit in and give them House ,Money,and ignore those who built USA. 2 hours ago, heybruce said: In a constitutional democracy the President is expected to follow the constitution. Did you know that? You know, I rather suspect that neither knowledge of the US Constitution, nor any understanding, or for that matter interest in, democracy, played any part in that bigoted and essentially unfounded outburst!???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod reborn Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 9 hours ago, suzannegoh said: Trump can't change it with an executive order but whether or not birth right citizenship is appropriate is a legitimate issue. Sure it is. Go ahead and start a constitutional amendment drive. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtls2005 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Must be interesting in the Conway home these days? Clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srinivas Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Democrat senator from Neveda : Harry Reid "If making it easy to be an illegal alien isn't enough, how about offering a reward for being an illegal alien? No sane country would do that, right? Guess again. If you break our laws by entering this country without permission to give birth to a child, we reward that child with US citizenship and guarantee a full access to all public and social services this society provides - and that's a lot of services. Is it any wonder that 2/3 of the babies born at taxpayer expense at county-run hospitals in Los Angeles are born to illegal alien mothers?" on video in front of the senate https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1057683481793302528?s=20 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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