Arggg! My Wife Stole My House!

[moziman]

Hi,

Sorry new here, just thought it might be interesting to hear of peoples experiences good or bad regarding the legal side of Ex pat living in Thailand, does it work for you?

An example of a question I would like cleared up is regarding the 30 year lease contract drawn up between a Thai wife (house owner) and Falang husband lease holder.

I have been told many times that this arrangement is the only way to go when wanting non condo property or land.(Not including setting up a company with Thai employees, very high fees and proper accountability etc)

So the question is this: if the land documents are correctly filled out and the 30 year lease contract is correctly performed and lease payments are paid etc, is there any circumstance where the lease holder can be legally ejected from the house before the 30 year lease has expired?

If anyone has ever heard of this happening or it has happened to them could you please post the circumstances under which it happened and if it was legally binding. I am aware of non legal ways this could happen, threats, murder etc.

I am curious because I have heard many rumors while living in Thailand of this happening but I am highly skeptical that the individuals did actually even have a lease agreement in th

[taxexile]

i suppose if you have a legally drawn up lease and you have observed all the covenants of that lease then even if the lease is between you and your wife, then she cannot legally turf you out.

however, should she want you out, and should she turn up at the door with her brothers and a few mates one night, you might want to leave of your own accord.

[tutsiwarrior]

beware of the sound of avian rustling and quacking sounds in the night...

[stroll]

'beware of the sound of avian rustling and quacking sounds in the night... '

..the sound of drunk, bored expats stalking the forum, looking for a post to peeon...

'I am highly skeptical that the individuals did actually even have a lease agreement '

And if you did, would you want to claim your right in a Thai court?

[Yohan]

My friend with his Thai wife found the lease regulations by consulting a lawyer as somehow weak and not sufficient for the foreigner in case of divorce or other possible unpleasent situations.

He insisted, that his money was registered as a mortgage, and he took the original land registration papers with him (they are now in a safety box in a bank here in Tokyo) -

In case of problems he might leave, but can pressure the Thai family to repay his investments....

There is also a testament, which regulates the situation, should the wife die earlier than the husband, in such situations sometimes the nice relatives are not so nice anymore and claiming inheritage rights....

Johann

[Maejo Man]

beware of the sound of avian rustling and quacking sounds in the night...

....and the sound of a .38 Smith & Wesson being cocked against your temple. Happend to an old friend of mine about fifteen years ago, came home one night from being "out" and was snoozing in the chair, when his wife came up and stuck a .38 to his head, muttering the words..."you may take your golf clubs, but you can leave the BMW and everything else"

He left!....... He still has the golf clubs, and now is driving a Toyota, and is on his fourth wife. Some guys just never learn. He's still around, and seems to have "moderated" his time "Out" His ex is also around running a very successful restaurant.

Moral...Screw around...You'll get screwed

[maerim]

You don't really need to be here to have your house taken from you.

There is one definition of marriage, marry someone you don't like and buy them a house.

Losing a house here might be bad ( yup I speak from experience) but as houses go they are pretty cheap compared to the U.K.

Some of the horror stories I have seen there would make your toes curl, poor sod pulling his tripe out and she gets fed up and wants a divorce she will get the lot if he's not carefull, hubby ends up in digs and still paying the mortgage.

As to the legal aspect of you getting the house here in Thailand I would reckon you would have more chance of finding feathers on a frog than that happening.

[tutsiwarrior]

stroll... re: 'the sound of drunk, bored expats stalking the forum...'. I wasn't aware that there any contributors to this thread that could be described per the above.

Please explain.

[Boon Mee]

stroll... re: 'the sound of drunk, bored expats stalking the forum...'. I wasn't aware that there any contributors to this thread that could be described per the above.

Please explain.

Let him "stroll" on by...another wind-up merchant...

[stroll]

..who has already been found guilty of disagreeing with Boon Mee from time to time.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

[phuketrichard]

If you get a valid 30 year lease and it is registered you name goes on the back of the nor sor sam or chanote paper as well as whomever owns the land.

They can never sell it without your signiture.

if your then really cleaver and want to really cover your ass. Get whomever tyhe land is in to sign over a blank power of attorney form, copy of their id card and also copy of therir tam bian baan.

The you can fill in whomever name you want and take the land out of their name.

I had to do this when my wife started straying and evenually left me. She tried to figth it saying she didn;t know what she was signing but my lawyers told her she didn't have a leg to stand on as I could prove it was my money that brought the land ans she was merely a proxie.

[stumonster]

as I could prove it was my money that brought the land ans she was merely a proxie.

isn t that illegal here in thailand.. using a proxie to purchase land?

[astral]

as I could prove it was my money that brought the land ans she was merely a proxie.

isn t that illegal here in thailand.. using a proxie to purchase land?

If it is someone had better tell the government minsters and their wives!!

[astral]

Forget leasing!!!

Consult a lawyer and start a company, costs around 30,000 baht.

You will be the MD and have sole signing rights.

Buy the house in the company name.

Later you can execute a will and leave the company ( and house) to whoever you wish.

Much safer.

Rememer the Golden Rule.

Do not invest more in Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If you get a valid 30 year lease and it is registered you name goes on the back of the nor sor sam or chanote paper as well as whomever owns the land.

They can never sell it without your signiture.

if your then really cleaver and want to really cover your ass. Get whomever tyhe land is in to sign over a blank power of attorney form, copy of their id card and also copy of therir tam bian baan.

The you can fill in whomever name you want and take the land out of their name.

I had to do this when my wife started straying and evenually left me. She tried to figth it saying she didn;t know what she was signing but my lawyers told her she didn't have a leg to stand on as I could prove it was my money that brought the land ans she was merely a proxie.

A proxie instead of a prozzie

[thaigene2]

There is an excellent two-page news report-cum-editorial from one of the regional farang newspapers on this site about why it is better to rent than buy. Makes a lot of economic sense. Sorry couldn't find it this time - maybe one of the moderators can post the link though.

Buying property is usually done for emotional rather than rational reasons (Man's home is his castle, etc) but in this country (as others have pointed out) owning land/houses here is an extremely dodgy game for foreigners. There's nothing to stop Mr Thaksin or any future Thai government making it even worse - and there have been rumblings about clamping down on those who set up small companies to buy land/houses. Look what they did to those who want to apply for permanent residence, or O class family visas? Think they couldn't make your life more miserable still in the housing market? What if you set up a company, buy the house, then they start imposing new rules on your company..like minimum trading rules, etc? They could demand that if you have assets worth 3M Baht, you need to show annual revenues of 1 or 2 M Baht. Frankly, they could do whatever they want..

The argument to rent instead of buy makes sense. It won't end the harrassment from the Thai wife who is insistent on owning rather than renting..but then again she has everything to gain and you have lots to lose.

My advice is, if you are able to, save your money until you have enough cash to buy a condo in your name (although you have to through a stupid process of transfering the cash to a foreign bank account and then back again). There are some signs the Condo Market is overheated, and you can see the beginning of desperation on the part of the developers..lots of full page adds aimed at male farang for buildings only partially completed. My guess is that the Thais who were waiting for the right time to buy a condo have now done so and we could be in for another situation of oversupply in condos and hopefully lower prices in a couple of years. Now for buying or leasing a car I need advice..(But I'll post that separately)

Good luck whatever you do.

[thaimee]

Buying property is usually done for emotional rather than rational reasons (Man's home is his castle, etc) but in this country (as others have pointed out) owning land/houses here is an extremely dodgy game for foreigners.

IMHO, I Agree. However, although you may be spot on, I still would prefer to buy a house out of emotional necessity than starve the craving for bettering one's living standrads. As a young couple, I don't think we would be that disadvantaged.

I'm all too weary of the property sector in the Kingdom having many pitfalls, that is if one makes even a minimal error. Error's made buying in the wrong location or say wrong neighbourhood, may mean selling a house is difficult for whatever technical reason.

Thaimee.

[Simbo]

Two years ago, I split with my wife. She left and I stayed in my house with the 30 year, renewable lease. After a few weeks, she turned up with her brothers, cousins, second cousins twice removed. Forunately, my high gate was locked. She stood there, ordering me out of the house, insisting it was hers. Looking at her contorted face, I wondered what I ever saw in her and how I got myself in the dreadfull mess. I phoned my lawyer, who told me not to open the gate, letting her and her family in, or it would be a different story. My car was parked outside and they were trying the doorhandles. A lot more shouting and screaming later, she said she was going to the police to get them to put me out. 30 minutes later, she came back and they all left. I assume the police told her there was nothing theycould do. However, the car was in her name,and one night, coming home from an evening out, I was just locking the car, when I was physically knocked to the ground. Before I could get up, the keys were taken from me and the assailant was inside the car, door locked behind him, calmly driving away. I called the police, one arrived 30 minutes later, telling me there was nothing I could do as it was in her name. Even the assault was refered to as a gentle push. I went to my lawyer, who assured me I would get it back, as I could prove it was me who paid for it. That was 18 months ago and only recently, I asked him how much longer it will take. He thought for a moment then said, about a year. I have now bought a new one in my name. The house is mine and I can will the lease to my kin. It will be 58 years from now till she has a claim on it. HA HA p.s I did get a divorce

Got the certificate to prove it

[thaimee]

It will be 58 years from now till she has a claim on it. HA HA p.s I did get a divorce

Got the certificate to prove it

Glad a foreigner was a Winner in the Outcome. Good On You!! Thaimee.

[Simbo]

Don't know about winner, I still lost an 850.000b car.

[Simbo]

I don't know what the answer is. Marry an intelligent girl or a thick one. If they are reasonably clever, they can be an asset in helping you through the minefield, but if things go wrong, they can take you to the cleaners. With a thick one, all they have to offer is lots of love and bodily care, but a waste of space when you need an interperator or somone to help you in anything official. When things go wrong, you should be able to get rid at a discount price Better still, I'm not marrying again. I can get someone in to clean very cheap, cooking I do myself and the other doesn't cost the earth. There, I've answered my own question.

[moziman]

Thanks to all, some excellent posts up there and apologies for double posting the topic, I have terrible internet connection up here in the North East.

The renting vs. owning argument is quite interesting but I can't help thinking that as in any country over time the rents will increase in proportion to an expanding economy, house prices will increase in theory, making it harder to buy in the future and that also you are at the mercy of the landlord. I have been shown into peoples homes here in Thailand by landlords with no announcement to the renters and I have friends who have been shown the door or other accommodation on a landlords whim. If you thought ownership rights were limited renters have less and courts will nearly always stand by the landlord. Also rented accommodation in my part of the country is grim at best. There is also the buy to sell aspect as well. (for a profit!)

I guess age might have a factor here as well as to if it would be worth buying.

Condos are ok but it's nice to have some land for a garden or a bigger house.

I see the 'set up a company' route mentioned also, I have been warned against this in the past as these companies are now much more closely scrutinized as to accounts and general accountability. Also the general method it would seem is for the law firms you use to get this set up offer their employees as your employees to make up the numbers, I was told that in recent times this kind of behavior is being much more closely monitored. Just hear say most of this so can't be sure how accurate also I thought I read somewhere that the costs now to set up a company have changed recently and that there are other costs involved.

Bottom line is it seems, that people with the correctly processed lease who have had problems with the wife or other Thai nationals seem to win out barring of course terror tactics that are not legal. You guys all seem experienced living in this country and with the possible pitfalls and if I read correctly nobody has mentioned this lease law failing if correctly processed. (If it has not been fully tested then that is also testament to it's tightness)

I would just like to add some of my top tips on buying property here for anyone interested:

1. Check the road access to your property, who owns the road, who could deny your access.

2. Think carefully about the effect a new moobahn being erected next to your property might have on the value, desirability, noise, view etc. ( Money is being released for loans now at a large rate and the developers are building like crazy.)

3. Check the land is not owned or controlled by the government in any way, this can be reclaimed at any time and can make it impossible to sell on.

4. If having a house built ensure that you have some kind of protection over time taken and quality of workman's ship, usually the method of withholding some payment until the completion is to your satisfaction works.

5. Check for possible flooding in the area, tell tale signs are water marks around the base of the house.

6. Get a lease and accept no substitute and try to find a lawyer that is not a friend of the family!

7. Ensure the land documents are correctly signed, if they are not you may both lose and after a time the land can revert back to the original owner. I have this one from the horses mouth.(Easier said than done for sure but don't be embarrassed to keep asking questions even if people are getting impatient)

8. Try and rent the house before you buy, some houses have terrible plumbing and you can have a house that stinks of sewage, many other nasties can come to light, often landlords will be happy for you to rent first if you seem interested enough to buy later.

9. Any properties that have communal facilities like pools etc check carefully who has responsibility for the payments of upkeep and also will all of the residents pay their share via a contract. Often when a village is finished the developers will leave it all up to the residents, I have seen many fights over this.

10. Hardest one of all this and sounds obvious but, don't assume that a 40 year age gap does not figure in a young ladies mind, it does 100% and apart from the lucky few the goal will be financial plain and simple, same deal applies to Thai men with younger ladies, they have to pay just the same, somebody wrote somewhere that these young ladies are selling their youth, that seems a fairly apt description so, cover your ass as well as possible if you are thinking of buying a house here in Thailand. I had a bar in Pattaya for a while and got the inside track on the systems of scams operated, hair raising stuff and sweetest ladies you could ever meet, I had girls arrive from the Northern villages to work all innocent, within a month they had the full repertoire of the tricks of the trade, very sad to witness and in balance the way these ladies are treated by us Westerners in those parts doesn't help towards gaining their respect, how many married expats you know screw around or treat their wife like a maid? swings both ways I think, I seriously don't believe Thai people are corrupt as a rule but for sure a lot more practical about money and it's worth. If i'm asked about the best kind of women to get in Thailand I will always recommend to go older with less of an age gap, less problems in the long run and I think Thai ladies age very well and I would suspect that these types of marriages last a lot better.

Thanks again to all that posted and I hope this thread might help a few,

Cheers

moziman

Ps Just thought of another important tip, every asking price is negotiable always try it on, always! you can even chisel a bit more if you get a Thai friend to act as an arranger for commission that you can split later.

[Ajarn]

It will be 58 years from now till she has a claim on it. HA HA    p.s I did get a divorce

Got the certificate to prove it

Glad a foreigner was a Winner in the Outcome. Good On You!! Thaimee.

Maybe a winner, but more likely, only temporarily, I'd guess. You can bet the ex, and family members will continue to look for a chance to get back....Grudges never seem to die with Thais...

Watch your back.

[andy...mp]

??

[Up2U]

Simple rules for forming company to buy house - purchase land house stands on. (In many developments the land ownership is retained by the developer, so this need not apply)

Foreign portion of company is owned by children of prospective purchaser, or other foreign nominees. Purchaser loans money to shareholders to form company, in turn holds their shares as security against the loans. Same for the Thai portion. All this notarised.

Company loans money to wife (or other partner) for land purchase. Holds the deeds of the land as security against the loan.

Prospective purchaser is employed by the company (assuming it is formed with a capitalisation greater than 2 mill.) to manage the property. He is given a wage and allowed to occupy the property while employed by company.

Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

In this way, even when the purchaser leaves thismortal coil, the rights of his kin seem protected. And he, the purchaser, has no property to be hassled about.

[astral]

I see the 'set up a company' route mentioned also, I have been warned against this in the past as these companies are now much more closely scrutinized as to accounts and general accountability. Just hear say most of this so can't be sure how accurate also I thought I read somewhere that the costs now to set up a company have changed recently and that there are other costs involved.

30,000 to start the company

15,000 a year for accounts and other fees.

You will need a back to back rental agreement with your company

to allow you to live in the house, nominal rent.

A reliable lawyer will deal with these matters for you.

(yes such beast do exist)

[khunphilip]

Iwas told right or wrong if you are legally married to a thai you own 49 percent of the house still if correct where do you stand if your wife wants you out. Mind you its probaly easy for your wife to piss you off so much you will go anyway well thats what them bicthes do in england and as some one said you finish up in bedsitland and still go on paying at least here you can cut your losses and move on and rent something decent with out breaking the bank life to short to be unhappy and you cannot be unhappy in Chiangmai

F.T.P.

[chanchao]

>> It will be 58 years from now till she has a claim on it. HA HA

> Glad a foreigner was a Winner in the Outcome. Good On You!!

Why, actually? (Assuming you don't personally know both people involved) ? Just because he's a foreigner and you are too? (again, presumably)

Personally I think it's better to marry someone who already owns a shitload of land so you don't have to buy it.

As for setting up companies with the specific purpose of buying land.. I would worry too about having to employ yourself as MD, then pay yourself the minimum salary for expat workers from your particular country, and then PAY TAX on your own salary.. Or other taxes or legal/accounting obligations that may apply to running a company. I think this company thing would only be a good idea if you need to run a company anyways for a regular business you operate. Also I thought that if the company owns land then the foreign part in the company can only be 30% or so unless you're from the USA? (Would make no practical difference of course as anyone can be shareholder and you can make them sign away their shares to an empty space on the 'buyer' dotted line).

(Let me know if and where I'm wrong in this)

Cheers,

Chanchao

[ProThaiExpat]

As added protection to the 30 year lease, create a mortgage for the purchase price that is payable in one lump sum upon expiration of the 30 year lease so if an eviction occurs, the amount of the unpaid mortgage (ie. the purchase price) must be paid as part of the court judegement of eviction.

The mortgage is entered on the back of the land document, as is the lease, so the property cannot be sold out from under you without your rights being dealt with.

My lease contains a 5 million baht agreed upon penalty, in addition to the lease and mortgage, in the event my peaceful occupancy is distrubed by the landlord or anyone taking from the landlord.

Keep in mind that the lease payments are taxable, usually up front, so you will be contacted for the tax as soon as you record the lease. My tax man tried to collect two hundred and fifty thousand baht for the two million baht rent at the end of the thirty years (purchase price) from my Thai landlord, but ended up settling for 10k for the 30 year term.

The rent to be paid in mone lump sum at the expiration of the lease is still taxable upon recording so the dillema is a high rent payemnt and mortgage amount to discourage eviction vs. paying tax on the amount.