Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[onera1961]

Just now, onera1961 said:

I obtained double-entry tourist visas from the Thai consulate in LA,

There are no more double entry tourist visa available anywhere in the US

[gk10002000]

22 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Get an O-A. Don't bother with TI. Even to stick a finger on their face, fly out to a neighboring country to avoid 90-day reporting. Only reporting of your address you have to is in your arrival card. 

Oh I definitely plan to travel out every 88 days to avoid the 90 day reporting.  However, I suspect that at some point when I do an extension renewal or during some other stop and search inquiry, the Thais will get concerned about people that don't show any 90 day reporting.  I know what the law and words say, but I still would not be surprised if it raises some issues, concerns, or whatever.  But that is my plan.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

There is no retirement visa. But there is long-stay O-A visa which is ME and each time you enter the country, you get one year permission to stay. If exit/enter before the visa expires,  it can be used form almost 24 months to stay in Thailand legally. I am on such a visa. The requirements are the same but you don't have to bring any money to a Thai bank. 

 

what are the requirements for a long-stay O-A visa (ME)?

 

 

[cyberfarang]

14 hours ago, Mooserj said:

These links to the Thai Immigration website

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

 

do actually state the three (3) methods of proving required funds:

 

1. Money in the Bank 

2. Income per month

3 Combination method

 

I am sure Bank books/statements and bank letters can prove these fund methods without the need for Embassy support documents. Interesting to see how Immigration react to all this and what they will be accepting.

No it doesn`t.

 

Thai immigration impose proof of source of income and an embassy confirmation letter for the monthly income method. The bank books and bank balance statement letters are only applicable for the money in a Thai bank method. This has already been established some years ago and Thai immigration have not made any statements to the contrary.  This means that no embassy confirmation letter, only option is the lump sum money in a Thai bank.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

Oh I definitely plan to travel out every 88 days to avoid the 90 day reporting.  However, I suspect that at some point when I do an extension renewal or during some other stop and search inquiry, the Thais will get concerned about people that don't show any 90 day reporting.  I know what the law and words say, but I still would not be surprised if it raises some issues, concerns, or whatever.  But that is my plan.

whats your problem with 90 day reports?

1 simple 1 page form and some passport copies and thats it

really easy peasy and quick quick

 

 

[sambum]

4 hours ago, The Truth said:

Nobody had a problem when "Big Joke" was nicking and deporting darkies left and right for being illegal but as soon as it's lying farang being lined up for the chop now that he's the Big Boss at immigration, everyone's crying 'foul'.

First of all, this has nothing at all to do with "Big Joke" - the issue was discussed with the British Embassy as far back as May - long before he took over the reins at Immigration, and it is to the detriment of the BE that British citizens have been kept in the dark since then regarding this matter. 

 

However, it would be nice if there was a statement from Thai Immigration (TI) indicating if any other Proof of Income would be acceptable rather than the 800k in a Thai bank or 65k per month route. 

 

There are thousands of ex pats living here (not just the UK) that are being affected by this scenario, and the majority have the necessary annual income to live here quite comfortably, and hence contribute substantially to the economy. As I have said previously, the people that they should be targetting are the people who are "bucking the system" and do not have the necessary income, but who use agents to falsify their details in order to obtain an extension. These are the people who have contributed to the current "impasse", and are making life difficult for the majority. Unfortunately, until Thai Immigration clarify the situation, the numbers of these "dodgers" are bound to increase, and although I am loath to admit it, I could well be joining their ranks unless TI and the Embassies get together to solve the problem. 

As it appears to me, the way it stands at the moment is that if you as an ex pat/pensioner have an income of 800,000 baht a year to live off, Thailand doesn't want you (although the Thai old age pension is only 500 baht a month), but if you can put that 800,000 baht into a Thai bank account and leave it untouched for 3 months, then you are welcome here.

 

No doubt the Visa specialist agencies will be making a killing for a while!

Edited November 2, 2018 by sambum

[sambum]

40 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

whats your problem with 90 day reports?

1 simple 1 page form and some passport copies and thats it

really easy peasy and quick quick

 

 

Not even that in my neck of the woods - but annual extension - now that's a different "kettle of fish"

[AmericanSafety]

I already send a monthly amount to my Mrs each month while I am out for the country. I may have to get a join account with the Mrs (both names) and start transferring $ to her there, solely so I won't have to have a separate one for the requirement.

Edited November 2, 2018 by AmericanSafety

[cyberfarang]

31 minutes ago, sambum said:

First of all, this has nothing at all to do with "Big Joke" - the issue was discussed with the British Embassy as far back as May - long before he took over the reins at Immigration, and it is to the detriment of the BE that British citizens have been kept in the dark since then regarding this matter. 

 

However, it would be nice if there was a statement from Thai Immigration (TI) indicating if any other Proof of Income would be acceptable rather than the 800k in a Thai bank or 65k per month route. 

 

There are thousands of ex pats living here (not just the UK) that are being affected by this scenario, and the majority have the necessary annual income to live here quite comfortably, and hence contribute substantially to the economy. As I have said previously, the people that they should be targetting are the people who are "bucking the system" and do not have the necessary income, but who use agents to falsify their details in order to obtain an extension. These are the people who have contributed to the current "impasse", and are making life difficult for the majority. Unfortunately, until Thai Immigration clarify the situation, the numbers of these "dodgers" are bound to increase, and although I am loath to admit it, I could well be joining their ranks unless TI and the Embassies get together to solve the problem. 

As it appears to me, the way it stands at the moment is that if you as an ex pat/pensioner have an income of 800,000 baht a year to live off, Thailand doesn't want you (although the Thai old age pension is only 500 baht a month), but if you can put that 800,000 baht into a Thai bank account and leave it untouched for 3 months, then you are welcome here.

 

No doubt the Visa specialist agencies will be making a killing for a while!

You`ve almost got it right, except soon the corrupt visa agencies that can pull strings will be put out of business.

 

Another point, there are going to be those who will try to borrow the lump sums 2 or 3 months before application dates thinking they can fool immigration. But I predict that immigration will soon be asking to see bank books with monies going in and out including the lump sum amounts. So for example. if immigration see 400k or 800k suddenly paid into an account, they will want to see it`s origins.

 

Not happened yet, but I guess can be expected.

[mikosan]

12 hours ago, balo said:

Just use a visa agent instead , to avoid all this mess. 

I'm late in replying to this and I'm sure it has already been posted, but I don't have the time, or inclination, to read another 300 posts.  Use a visa agent, doesn't that encourage corruption.......isn't that what Big Joke is trying to get rid of?  The way it's going at the moment, I see this as a wonderful way to do just that.  TIT.

[sambum]

10 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

You`ve almost got it right, except soon the corrupt visa agencies that can pull strings will be put out of business.

 

Another point, there are going to be those who will try to borrow the lump sums 2 or 3 months before application dates thinking they can fool immigration. But I predict that immigration will soon be asking to see bank books with monies going in and out including the lump sum amounts. So for example. if immigration see 400k or 800k suddenly paid into an account, they will want to see it`s origins.

 

Not happened yet, but I guess can be expected.

"the corrupt visa agencies that can pull strings will be put out of business"  In an ideal world, maybe, but !!!

 

"those who will try to borrow the lump sums 2 or 3 months before application dates thinking they can fool immigration".

I think that Immigration will care not a jot where the money came from - if it's "seasoned" in the bank for 3 months they'll be quite happy!

[mikosan]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

whats your problem with 90 day reports?

1 simple 1 page form and some passport copies and thats it

really easy peasy and quick quick

 

 

Not sure where you do your 90 day reports, but where I go you simply rock up with your passport, no paperwork required and they do it there and then, in less than 5 minutes.  Prior to our new immigration office, in my experience in the past, other than a TM47, there was no requirement for passport copies or anything else like that.  Guess we're just lucky here. 555.

 

[ryane66]

It seems like the lax policy of the USA and other Embassies will eventually affect the rest of us. Unbelievable that a citizen could go into their Embassy,  write down a figure and swear that it is true. In the Canadian Embassy l have to bring in 3 months of bank statements showing my pension income before they issue a notarized letter. While not foolproof, very few would slip through the cracks. Not sure why the Thai Immigration is clamping down. These individuals are spending their money and when you spend money you create jobs. Forcing them to do visa runs or leave Thailand to me is counter productive. There are other options for expats. Other countries happy to have them.

I live in Isaan and while not as many expats in our city as some, l have not witnessed or heard of any problems caused by the expat community. We are spending our money , building and buying accommodation. All this creates jobs in the community. 

Immigration should focus on real problems.

[balo]

36 minutes ago, mikosan said:

Use a visa agent, doesn't that encourage corruption.......isn't that what Big Joke is trying to get rid of?  The way it's going at the moment, I see this as a wonderful way to do just that.  TIT.

We'll see what will happen , Big Joke wants to get rid of the agents too according to some news articles. 

 

[balo]

What if you are denied opening a Thai bank account ? In many provinces the banks are difficult to deal with . 

[HappyAndRich]

7 hours ago, jimn said:

Its been discussed on the BE and US threads but I will post on here as its the latest topic. Currently I get an embassy latter for my retirement extension and I prove my 65,000 thai baht and its based on GROSS income. The situation now we are led to believe is that we should transfer 65,000 thai baht into our thai bank accounts at NET income. Now that is a major change from before. For me personally I only stay in Thailand for 7 months out of 12 so transferring 65,000 into a Thai account is a non starter. I prefer to keep my money in the UK. There are many of us who choose to transfer small amounts into Thailand when cash is needed and use a no fee credit/debit card for other purchases. This is the 21st century, cash is a dying method of payment. In the UK many people use a contactless card or a mobile app for everything and hardly ever use cash. 

 

I you prefer to do something else with your money, than the rules in the country states, then you will have to consider that you no longer qualify for a visa like before. If your income doesn´t net 65K, then you never had enough to qualify from start. That´s why they what to see the money know, and not a useless letter with an amount written on it.

If you want a country that lives up to you modern expectations of the 21st century, then Thailand has never been the right choice.

I am sorry if it sounds harsh, but this is the point we are at. The thing is that it´s actually, according to the rules, not a bigger change than that you have to show the real money instead of a piece of paper.

[bearsamui]

I understand Stat Decs wont be accepted anymore as evidence of funds but what about letters from employers? I have provided a letter from my employer verifiying my salary for the last 3 yrs for my Non O extension which I have had stamped by the Aust Embassy. I earn triple the monthly amount required but don't have the required funds in my thai account.

The letter from my company is proof of funds, its not a stat dec. Will this still suffice?

Looking at the current requirements requested by immigration it just says proof of funds of 40000bht a month. A letter from my employer and pay slips are proof of funds.

Edited November 2, 2018 by bearsamui

[elviajero]

13 hours ago, wharria said:

I travel back to the UK every year and obtain an multi entry  'O' visa, The requirements now are over 50 years of age and prove an income of £1200 per month or if over 65 you can show proof of a Government pension. Prior to this you had to prove an income of £900 per month. The visa fee used to be £75 and is now £125.

They will only accept cash payment at the Embassy and if applying by post only Postal Orders are accepted which increases the cost by another £30+ with the postage.

You get a ME non 'O' based on being over 50?

 

When did you last get one?

[Time Traveller]

18 hours ago, ezzra said:

The question is why now and whether the Thai government is behind it to force expats to bring more money into the country or is it a cahoot of the US, UK and the aussie governments for reasons that are know only to them...

Use your brain, its not hard to work it out.

1. Thai immigration want someone else to do the hard work and incur the costs.

2. Embassies know it's impossible for them to verify anyone's income. That's what Tax accounts and auditors  are trained for.

3. Embassies don't want to be wasting their staff time and money doing this because the Thai immigration folks are too lazy to verify income.

 

Simple solution - and cheaper for all persons who normally do the income verification - would be if Thai immigration accept a Tax Return as the proof of income. It's an official document, and no one is going to be over stating their income.......Pretty easy solution, but I doubt those dumbells at immigration who are still stuck in 19th century thinking will change their ways. It's typical for them to demand things from people that are impossible to obtain

Edited November 2, 2018 by Time Traveller

[elviajero]

14 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

14 hours ago, rexall said:

Well, the 800k/400K has never made sense. Why would you need 800K to retire and only 400K to support a family?

One possible explanation might be because the Thai wife was expected to also contribute to income?

 

Admittedly unlikely.  The more likely explanation is that authorities would prefer that married 'farangs' aren't forced to abandon their wives and children?

• The 400K is purely the amount they expect the foreigner to have to support themselves for 1 year.
• An extension as a spouse is not given to support a wife/family (you can do that from your home country), it is purely to stay with/visit.
• Any income the wife has is irrelevant. 
• You can't compare the 400K to 800K because the extensions are given for completely different reasons. Permits for spouses are partly given on a humanitarian basis; whereas, permit numbers for retirees need to be controlled -- the higher the amount the lower the expat numbers and the more financially secure they are.

[kiwikeith]

19 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been discussed over and over again the other topics about the embassy income proof. All 3 embassy are saying that you can prove you income by transfer the required income of 40k or 65k baht in a Thai bank. But immigration have not confirmed that will be accepted.

Not sure why you would think immigration would double the money in the bank. There is no basis for stating that.

 

You can get a letter of annual income for tax purposes from the pension office.

Any investment income can also be verified by a letter from the investment institute/bank.

These are legal proof of income, I can not see why Thai immigration can not accept these legal documents.

Inland revenue can also issue you a annual income letter showing your pension / investments etc..

 

So why , if the embassy wont take a declaration, which many people used to B/S about can't a IRS or official letter from the above suffice???

I expect NZ to follow suit if they do, I am in NZ at present and will make some phone calls as to why.

 

It does however seam that Thai authorities are pushing this, the corruption at immigration will kick in big time.

The BONUS, maybe the tea money will reduce as they will have many more cliental.

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, bearsamui said:

I understand Stat Decs wont be accepted anymore as evidence of funds but what about letters from employers? I have provided a letter from my employer verifiying my salary for the last 3 yrs for my Non O extension which I have had stamped by the Aust Embassy. I earn triple the monthly amount required but don't have the required funds in my thai account.

The letter from my company is proof of funds, its not a stat dec. Will this still suffice?

Looking at the current requirements requested by immigration it just says proof of funds of 40000bht a month. A letter from my employer and pay slips are proof of funds.

A letter from an employer carries less weight than a stat dec and is more easily forged, the answer therefore is, I doubt it very much.

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, gentlemanjackdarby said:

 

And why shouldn't one be able to keep one's assets working harder back in their home country, especially since in this day-and-age it's just not that hard to prove one's financial resources.

 

Exactly. Any form of tax return in the home country is incontrovertible proof of income, and I've never heard of anyone that overstates their income in the annual return.

As I see it, the obstacle to acceptance could be Thai Immigration not wanting to be reading through financial statements couched in another language. They've got enough problems getting through their own reams of paper.

I could meet the 65,000 baht requirement with monthly transfers from Australia. However, that would be inconvenient and costly in terms of transfer fees, and currency fluctuations. Ubon Joe has already opined a yearly transfer won't cut the mustard with Immigration, so I guess I'm stuck with the 800,000 baht route.

I get the feeling vacancy rates in condos and rental houses are going to soar next year, as impecunious retirees are forced out. Or perhaps Big Joke will have more work to do with overstayers.

[onera1961]

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

what are the requirements for a long-stay O-A visa (ME)?

Same as extension requirement inside Thailand. 800 K in a bank (American Bank) or 65K income. I don't know document for income as I used money in bank method. No seasoning required. I had the money in my Ally Bank. But people have obtained using their IRA and 401K statements also. The additional requirements that put off people pursuing this path is police report and health report. MY county issues criminal records for free of charge. Health report is a physical exam (no blood or lab results required). I went to a immigration doctor (most places have immigration doctors. These are certified doctors who can do a health check for green card applicants in the US and it is a very involved process requiring lots of lab tests etc.). But thai health check is a physical exam and you have to tell the doctor specifically that you need a physical exam to get out of the USA (not for coming to the USA). The doctor I went to looked at me and signed the doc because people from Western countries don't have those diseases. His fee $175. But my insurance paid it. Application fee is $200 USD. It is expensive but provides peace of mind for two years. No need to transfer money to a Thai bank, season it, get bank letter, bank book, passbook printout, TM 30, all these nonsense are not required. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by onera1961

[cleverman]

32 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Same as extension requirement inside Thailand. 800 K in a bank (American Bank) or 65K income. I don't know document for income as I used money in bank method. No seasoning required. I had the money in my Ally Bank. But people have obtained using their IRA and 401K statements also. The additional requirements that put off people pursuing this path is police report and health report. MY county issues criminal records for free of charge. Health report is a physical exam (no blood or lab results required). I went to a immigration doctor (most places have immigration doctors. These are certified doctors who can do a health check for green card applicants in the US and it is a very involved process requiring lots of lab tests etc.). But thai health check is a physical exam and you have to tell the doctor specifically that you need a physical exam to get out of the USA (not for coming to the USA). The doctor I went to looked at me and signed the doc because people from Western countries don't have those diseases. His fee $175. But my insurance paid it. Application fee is $200 USD. It is expensive but provides peace of mind for two years. No need to transfer money to a Thai bank, season it, get bank letter, bank book, passbook printout, TM 30, all these nonsense are not required. 

What are you on about???

[a977]

22 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

Totally agree how hard is it in this modern age for a person to enter your pension number into a computer and come up with the answer, I can do it why can't the embassy do it, After all they are the government.   Me thinks there more to this than meets the eye.  P.S. to Ubonjoe when I renewed my latest extension I included copies of my 07-08 taxation return also a copy of the pension rates page from the govt. website, the lovely lady at Jomtien Immigration kept both so maybe a way to go. 

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, giddyup said:

Irrelevant, because they are no longer being issued. Purely hypothetical.

Not hypothetical, the TI didn't tell the 3 embassies that their certifications wouldn't be accepted, they simply stopped issuing them in a PC sort of way, grandstanding comes to mind, PC isn't a Thai thing.

[soalbundy]

14 hours ago, giddyup said:

And how would that be verifying your income?

Is that really important to TI? certifying documents has been good enough up to now and the word verify was perhaps a slip up from a high official, there was no need to get all precious about it, other embassies have just taken it in their stride and carried on but since the BE decision has created tension there maybe a change in attitude from TI, Thai officials don't like to be challenged.

[EricTh]

5 hours ago, balo said:

What if you are denied opening a Thai bank account ? In many provinces the banks are difficult to deal with . 

 

Opening a  bank account is  not a  problem with Bangkok Bank.

 

I opened it when I was a tourist many years ago. Opening it with retirement  or marriage visa is even easier.

 

So that's not an excuse.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by EricTh

[soalbundy]

5 hours ago, balo said:

We'll see what will happen , Big Joke wants to get rid of the agents too according to some news articles. 

 

He might be getting rid of himself if he steps on too many toes, no matter how high up you are you still rely on the rank and file.