Army’s helicopters ‘much larger, purchase included pilot training and spare parts’

[rooster59]

Army’s helicopters ‘much larger, purchase included pilot training and spare parts’

By The Nation Weekend 

 

 

An anti-graft activist came under attack from the military on Friday after he alleged that the Army had bought helicopters at inflated prices.

 

Srisuwan Janya, secretary-general of the Association for the Protection of the Thai Constitution, earlier filed a petition with the Office of the Auditor-General asking for an investigation into the Army’s procurement of the Italian-made helicopters at prices he alleged to be inflated.

 

The Royal Thai Army on Friday dismissed the claims of irregularities in its purchase of helicopters, which Srisuwan said are similar to the one involved in a recent fatal accident that killed Leicester City football club owner Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha.

 

Colonel Sirichan Ngathong, deputy spokesperson for the Army, said the amount paid for the purchases included the cost of pilot training, spare parts, maintenance and additional equipment.

 

Also, the size of the models purchased by the Army was a lot larger than the civilian version involved in the accident in England, she said, which is why the helicopters bought by the Army were more expensive.

 

Srisuwan made the allegation after reports that the crashed Agusta Westland AW169 helicopter cost about Bt280 million. He pointed out that two AW139 helicopters were purchased for Bt675 million each in 2012, when Prime Minister General Prayut Chan-o-cha was serving as commander-in-chief of the Army.

 

Sirichan said on Friday that the Army had purchased a number of Agusta Westland AW139 and AW149 model helicopters in line with mission needs and procurement regulations.

 

 

She explained that these models are completely different from the AW169 involved in the UK crash, in terms of size, engine, flight ceiling, load capacity, speed, safety features, the number of pilot and passenger seats and additional equipment.

 

However, she said, the Army was prepared for scrutiny and will provide information to any state agency that investigates the matter. 

 

“The Army’s aircraft purchases were straightforward and in line with relevant laws and regulations,” she said.

 

“His information is inaccurate and he could be viewed as making unfair allegations against the Army. Also, it may not be inappropriate to try to link a tragic accident with the Army’s purchase of helicopters,” the spokesperson said.

 

Meanwhile, Defence Ministry spokesman Lt-General Kongcheep Tantrawanit on Friday suggested that Srisuwan seemed to have “poorly screened” the relevant information before making his allegations against the Army.

 

“Without a good understanding, you should have come to ask the Army first before giving any information to the media or filing any complaint. Without enough screening and lacking accurate information, you made the public believe what you said,” he said.

 

Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan, who is also Defence Minister, on Friday suggested that Srisuwan made his allegation prematurely.

 

“He filed his complaint when nothing wrong happened. The Army made these purchases under government-to-government deals, at specified prices. The deals were transparent,” General Prawit, who is also in charge of security affairs, said.

 

Earlier, Army spokesman Colonel Winthai Suvaree said the prices that the Army paid for the helicopters also included the cost of simulation training for the pilots, spare parts and training for its mechanics.

 

He said the reported Bt280-million price tag of Vichai’s helicopter was apparently for the helicopter only, while pilots were hired and maintenance services were possibly paid for separately. Also, the price tag cited by Srisuwan was not an official price, but rather one reported by the media.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30357780

 

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2018-11-03

[JAG]

Spare parts and maintenance...

7/12 of a relatively "young fleet" are unserviceable?

[Samui Bodoh]

"...However, she said, the Army was prepared for scrutiny and will provide information to any state agency that investigates the matter. 

"The Army’s aircraft purchases were straightforward and in line with relevant laws and regulations,” she said..."

 

Hmm...

 

Soooooooooo, the Army will provide information to "any state agency". However, the Army controls the state agencies and the Army makes all "relevant laws and regulations".

 

In other words, the Army will 'investigate' itself.

 

THIS is why you have no credibility.

 

THIS is why no one really believes you.

 

THIS is why the military needs to get out of politics...

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Samui Bodoh

[Thaiwrath]

8 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan, who is also Defence Minister, on Friday suggested that Srisuwan made his allegation prematurely.

 

“He filed his complaint when nothing wrong happened. The Army made these purchases under government-to-government deals, at specified prices.

This coming from the man who "allegedly" borrowed 22 luxury watches from a friend, who is now deceased !

Any believers ? Certainly not me !

[a977]

Training, spare parts, maintenance and additional equipment should read big brown envelopes

[Thian]

40 minutes ago, JAG said:

Spare parts and maintenance...

7/12 of a relatively "young fleet" are unserviceable?

Everything is serviceable.....

 

You won't give up bashing the junta ?  Even after proved wrong....

[Thian]

41 minutes ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...However, she said, the Army was prepared for scrutiny and will provide information to any state agency that investigates the matter. 

"The Army’s aircraft purchases were straightforward and in line with relevant laws and regulations,” she said..."

 

Hmm...

 

Soooooooooo, the Army will provide information to "any state agency". However, the Army controls the state agencies and the Army makes all "relevant laws and regulations".

 

In other words, the Army will 'investigate' itself.

 

THIS is why you have no credibility.

 

THIS is why no one really believes you.

 

THIS is why the military needs to get out of politics...

 

 

Pssssst ...(low voice) ....it was another helicopter....not same same.....hiew mai?

[fakename]

So privately bought copters are all bought without training, or spare parts?

[AGareth2]

59 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

Also, the price tag cited by Srisuwan was not an official price, but rather one reported by the media.

so it was even more?

[overherebc]

22 minutes ago, fakename said:

So privately bought copters are all bought without training, or spare parts?

Civilian purchases, different packages for different customers at different prices, bit like buying a new Super car, quite often you will get a 'how to handle this car' with the sale on first time purchase. You sure as sh-t don't get a free spare engine or 4 spare wheels to stack at the back of the garage. Maybe if you wanted a spare engine I don't think it would be a freebie, really.

[JAG]

26 minutes ago, Thian said:

Everything is serviceable.....

 

You won't give up bashing the junta ?  Even after proved wrong....

I will spell this out very simply, you obviously don't understand my point.

 

This topic was started just over 24 hours ago in another thread. The original post quoted a Thai newspaper as stating that 7 out of the 12 helicopters were unservicable. That report has not been denied or refuted.

 

The military have now excused the significantly higher price paid for these aircraft (compared to that paid by other countries who have made similar purchases) by claiming that it included a spare parts and maintenance package. Some doubt is cast on that claim by the fact that more than 50% ( 7 out of 12 ) of a recently purchased fleet, is now unserviceable.

 

I hope that helps.

[MARK74]

Wasn't it mentioned the other day that only 5 of the 12 are fit to fly?

Perhaps they should have spent a bit more on engineer/mechanic training to fit the spare parts so most of them aren't still grounded or have the spare parts already been sold ????

i just saw the last comment by JAG, kind of getting at the same thing

Edited November 3, 2018 by MARK74
added the last sentence

[Thian]

6 minutes ago, JAG said:

I will spell this out very simply, you obviously don't understand my point.

 

This topic was started just over 24 hours ago in another thread. The original post quoted a Thai newspaper as stating that 7 out of the 12 helicopters were unservicable. That report has not been denied or refuted.

 

The military have now excused the significantly higher price paid for these aircraft (compared to that paid by other countries who have made similar purchases) by claiming that it included a spare parts and maintenance package. Some doubt is cast on that claim by the fact that more than 50% ( 7 out of 12 ) of a recently purchased fleet, is now unserviceable.

 

I hope that helps.

I will explain it for you, hope it helps..

 

I had several classic cars which were crap...i made them into new and and they passed all european inspections, i drove them for a decade and got loads of thumbs up. I did the same to 100 year old houses, they are still fine.

 

NOTHING is unserviceable with the right engineers working on it.....also choppers aren't.

 

And if those 5 choppers are unservicable or not has NOTHING to do with the price of them....

 

hope that clears things up a bit.

 

 

[JAG]

44 minutes ago, Thian said:

I will explain it for you, hope it helps..

 

I had several classic cars which were crap...i made them into new and and they passed all european inspections, i drove them for a decade and got loads of thumbs up. I did the same to 100 year old houses, they are still fine.

 

NOTHING is unserviceable with the right engineers working on it.....also choppers aren't.

 

And if those 5 choppers are unservicable or not has NOTHING to do with the price of them....

 

hope that clears things up a bit.

 

 

Ah but it does, the majority of the helicopters (7 not 5 by the way) are unserviceable. Yet the army claims to have spent to have spent a very large amount of money relatively recently on a spare parts and maintenance package, which having regard to the amount it costs, presumably included the services of

[robblok]

23 minutes ago, JAG said:

Ah but it does, the majority of the helicopters (7 not 5 by the way) are unserviceable. Yet the army claims to have spent to have spent a very large amount of money relatively recently on a spare parts and maintenance package, which having regard to the amount it costs, presumably included the services of

That part is irrefutable, if you pay extra for spare parts and service its strange that so many are serviceable. 

 

This company also is known for giving bribes, that being said its hard to just compare choppers when you don't have the exact description what is included and what was included by other countries. Its not like a pack of sugar that should have the same price (some minor differences).

 

Anyway, without more proof had to proof that its all above board. That is the problem we might know that things are not above board. Prawit, Thaksin, Suthep but proving it in a court of law is a different case. 

 

I lean towards corruption here because of the track record of that company. 

[RotMahKid]

Whatever you all discuss here, I just don't believe any word that's coming from the army/junta

 

[seajae]

we all know there would have been envelopes or cake boxes passed around but what everyone is also avoiding is the fact that they are not the same size helicopters, the army one is bigger with different dimensions, abilities and engine plus the supposed spare parts etc which naturally do cost more so comparing prices is not realistic. The real problem here is why are 7 of them not flying when they are quite new in years, what has happened to the back up/warranties involved with them

[Pond Life]

This report has screwed it up again.

The bottom photo, labelled as a AW149 is in fact another AW139.

 

AW169 10 passengers + 2 crew

AW139 15 + 2

AW149 18 + 2

 

All of them are unreliable, over complicated pieces of junk that have no place in Thailand.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, fakename said:

So privately bought copters are all bought without training, or spare parts?

Many private helicopters are not bought but leased from a company. That company would normally do all the repairs and maintenance at an extra cost to the lease or included in the lease of the helicopter. 

 

It is more cost effective and saves the cost of buying a helicopter . With a lease it is possible to upgrade or downgrade and end the lease. Then you don't have the problem of trying to sell a used helicopter on the open market.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, fakename said:

 

 

Double post again. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by billd766

[hansnl]

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...However, she said, the Army was prepared for scrutiny and will provide information to any state agency that investigates the matter. 

"The Army’s aircraft purchases were straightforward and in line with relevant laws and regulations,” she said..."

 

Hmm...

 

Soooooooooo, the Army will provide information to "any state agency". However, the Army controls the state agencies and the Army makes all "relevant laws and regulations".

 

In other words, the Army will 'investigate' itself.

 

THIS is why you have no credibility.

 

THIS is why no one really believes you.

 

THIS is why the military needs to get out of politics...

 

 

Let's presume the army is going out of the government, question is what will take it's place?

[billd766]

I did a Google search for the Thai Army aviation and also the AW 139 and the AW 149. Whilst they are from the same stable the are made for different roles.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Army#Aircraft

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW139

 

AW 139 unit cost in 2013 $USD 12,000,000

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW149

 

https://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopter-airplane/agusta-westland-aw149/254

 

From the above

 

Price - $ 13 million - $ 16 million Estimated*

[how241]

It does sound like this reporter was too fast to report without checking all his facts, especially by having such basic info wrong as to the model #  and size.  Bad reporting.

[Eric Loh]

Let's see. Blimp that don't fly, aircraft carrier sitting in the dock, GT200 that were fakes and submarines operational questionable. Just follow the progression and you end up doubting the words of the junta. When the military corruption is on par with countries like Uganda, it will take a lot of convincing to think otherwise. 

[JamJar]

6 hours ago, how241 said:

It does sound like this reporter was too fast to report without checking all his facts, especially by having such basic info wrong as to the model #  and size.  Bad reporting.

It looks as if it is you were too quick to post.

 

You should follow the story.

 

Quote

Price information available online indicates the military spent well over market price for the aircraft. A military-outfitted AW139 helicopter, the same model bought by the Thai army, reportedly sold for about 348 million baht apiece in 2013, according to Aviation International News. AW149s, a more recent model bought by the Thai army last year, sell on the market for about 480 million baht each, according to an aviation research company.

 

[billd766]

36 minutes ago, JamJar said:

It looks as if it is you were too quick to post.

 

You should follow the story.

 

 

 

That was roughly in line with the price that I saw in my post #22.

 

However I am not sure of the price that the Army paid.

[overherebc]

15 hours ago, JAG said:

I will spell this out very simply, you obviously don't understand my point.

 

This topic was started just over 24 hours ago in another thread. The original post quoted a Thai newspaper as stating that 7 out of the 12 helicopters were unservicable. That report has not been denied or refuted.

 

The military have now excused the significantly higher price paid for these aircraft (compared to that paid by other countries who have made similar purchases) by claiming that it included a spare parts and maintenance package. Some doubt is cast on that claim by the fact that more than 50% ( 7 out of 12 ) of a recently purchased fleet, is now unserviceable.

 

I hope that helps.

So you tell us how many are still flying and how many might be on strip down for full inspection prior to going back into service.

Don't know if you've ever seen a full strip down of say an engine from something like an old 2 or 4 seater Cessna engine. It's a flat 4 by the way and the engine is stripped down to each component part and every single piece is inspected. It's not really just check the oil level and listen for unusual noises. It can take weeks to do.

In military terms 'servicable' does not mean the same as 'my car is servicable enough to nip down the corner shop and buy a few beers.' In military terms that would mean 'battle worthy,' a big diffrence.

Edit.

Newspaper report.

Check the date on tomorrows newspaper, it will be a fact.

Everything else will be some individuals opinion and not an absolute fact.

Edited November 3, 2018 by overherebc

[Media1]

Pinnochio has been giving classes

[how241]

"It looks as if it is you were too quick to post"...

Not at all. I stand by my post of saying that if a reporter gets the basic facts wrong about the model # and size, that is bad reporting without any fact checking. I said nothing about the price paid. 

[JAG]

8 hours ago, overherebc said:

So you tell us how many are still flying and how many might be on strip down for full inspection prior to going back into service.

Don't know if you've ever seen a full strip down of say an engine from something like an old 2 or 4 seater Cessna engine. It's a flat 4 by the way and the engine is stripped down to each component part and every single piece is inspected. It's not really just check the oil level and listen for unusual noises. It can take weeks to do.

In military terms 'servicable' does not mean the same as 'my car is servicable enough to nip down the corner shop and buy a few beers.' In military terms that would mean 'battle worthy,' a big diffrence.

Edit.

Newspaper report.

Check the date on tomorrows newspaper, it will be a fact.

Everything else will be some individuals opinion and not an absolute fact.

Although not party to all the technical details of maintaining aircraft, I am aware of the complexity of such matters (unlike some who compare it  to restoring vintage cars and 100 year old houses). I am fully aware (through first hand experience) of the difference between "serviceable" and "battleworthy" in the military.

 

My point remains; I wonder at the "quality" of the expensive spare parts and maintenance package which accompanied the purchase of these helicopters, given their reported serviceability.

 

The cynics amongst us may think that if you are going to divert funds in the procurement process it is easier to do so through maintenance provision than whilst actually buying the hardware (for both the manufacturer and the purchasers).

 

Of course these are all opinions, as is your position and that of everyone else posting on this thread. Unless the head sheds of both parties appear here and tell us exactly what they have been up to ( unlikely don't you think?) they will remain opinions. No reason for not expressing them though. That is one of the points of Thai Visa.

Edited November 4, 2018 by JAG