Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Lovethailandelite said:

t's fact. There has been no mention or agreement on any combination method. Whether you choose to accept it or not, is your choice. Whatever you choose to accept will not change anything.

I suppose you feel that you are 'helping' us by being a back channel for the British Embassy but when you are pressed for an explanation- you become irritated.  That is not very diplomatic and is  rude.

 

There are people who are quite worried over their future- Most have the income but  proving it and understanding how to do this is the issue.  You claim the Embassy has already provided the information but in truth  it has only provided a general look into the future.

If you know anything about Thai Immigration- you will know that there is the  Thai HQ  way of doing things and then the local way of doing things.  IOs don;'t react well to attempts to get them to follow the  overall directive. There are already  reports of some offices accepting the Embassy letters without problems. Some Offices want to see the  proof from the foreign source to include a pension letter, others  want the proof to be only a government pension  This will continue  in the same manner it has always existed even when Embassy letters were in vogue.

 

If you are indeed a back channel to the Embassy- you may want to keep abreast of all the issues  citizens are having and will have.  If you are in contact with Thai Imm and in the process of negotiating anything- i would suggest that Thai  Imm at the very least accept all Embassy letters from any source until December 31, 2019. This will give plenty of time for everyone to get their next extension and adjust to a new way of doing business without  using Embassy letters.  This will allow the 'new' system to be tested on those that arrive  after January 2019 and cannot get letters and allow the Embassies  and both Thai Immigration to follow and document any issues.

 

Since the Embassies  indicate they are concerned about their citizens welfare- it is incumbent  upon them to assist in this transition and  listen to their constituents and not chastise them for asking  questions.  Have a nice day!

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

you have evidence that they asked the embassies to 'verify'

Made in the statements issued by the BE and the video interview.

 

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

German embassy still only certifies without problems.

They certify nothing more than your signature, made in front of the Consular officer.

 

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I fail to see how British expats couldn't produce supporting documents if these documents were the basis of receiving the letter

Who said the British expats don't supply supporting documents?

Bank statements, tax receipts, letters from the DWP, company and private pension providers can be submitted.

However and the point you appear to miss, is those documents cannot be verified by the Embassy.

They have been taken on good faith, not proved to be authentic and not forged.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Made in the statements issued by the BE and the video interview.

 

They certify nothing more than your signature, made in front of the Consular officer.

 

Who said the British expats don't supply supporting documents?

Bank statements, tax receipts, letters from the DWP, company and private pension providers can be submitted.

However and the point you appear to miss, is those documents cannot be verified by the Embassy.

They have been taken on good faith, not proved to be authentic and not forged.

I don't have to sign anything at the German embassy, they take my documents away and 20 or so minuets later I get a letter that they certify my income after having seen the supporting evidence and that Mr x IS RECEIVING x amount. I dispute that income must be verified because that isn't possible, who is going to verify the verification, IO have always, and still do, accept certification by the embassies, I'm sure none of them say verify, the BE has made a fetish of the word.

I didn't say British expats don't supply documents, read my post again, I was replying to a post which said this could all have started because some Brits couldn't supply back up documents, I disputed this possibility.

[pookiki]

I have taken the liberty of drafting a sample/template letter to be used by all interested UK, US,  and Australian citizens to send to your appropriate embassy official (the Consul General in the case of the US Embassy) concerning the revocation on issuing income verification documents. The sample is attached to this post in word format.   Please tweak the letter as you deem appropriate to address your own particular situation.

 

I would encourage all those expats affected by this problem to send/email a letter to your embassy as soon as possible.  I will also explore creating an online petition address the current situation as well.

 

Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Sample Embassy Letter.docx

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I have taken the liberty of drafting a sample/template letter to be used by all interested UK, US,  and Australian citizens to send to your appropriate embassy official (the Consul General in the case of the US Embassy) concerning the revocation on issuing income verification documents. The sample is attached to this post in word format.   Please tweak the letter as you deem appropriate to address your own particular situation.

 

I would encourage all those expats affected by this problem to send/email a letter to your embassy as soon as possible.  I will also explore creating an online petition address the current situation as well.

 

Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Sample Embassy Letter.docx

Anything to annoy them and keep us in the picture can't be bad.

[Tanoshi]

30 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't have to sign anything at the German embassy, they take my documents away and 20 or so minuets later I get a letter that they certify my income after having seen the supporting evidence

Similar to the BE, only we can send the documents online.

 

In either case the Embassy are only certifying from the documents shown ………………...

'Verifying' as requested by Thai Immigration is a completely different legal procedure.

[Tanoshi]

38 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I have taken the liberty of drafting a sample/template letter to be used by all interested UK, US,  and Australian citizens to send to your appropriate embassy official (the Consul General in the case of the US Embassy) concerning the revocation on issuing income verification documents. The sample is attached to this post in word format.   Please tweak the letter as you deem appropriate to address your own particular situation.

 

I would encourage all those expats affected by this problem to send/email a letter to your embassy as soon as possible.  I will also explore creating an online petition address the current situation as well.

 

Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Sample Embassy Letter.docx

No good for UK or Australian citizens.

You only address 'affidavits', which the UK and Australian Embassies do not use.

 

You also do not extend your Visa at Immigration.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Tanoshi

[pookiki]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

No good for UK or Australian citizens.

You only address 'affidavits', which the UK and Australian Embassies do not use.

 

You also do not extend your Visa at Immigration.

Please revise the letter as you feel appropriate to your situation -- if you are interested.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

o good for UK or Australian citizens.

You only address 'affidavits', which the UK and Australian Embassies do not use.

 

You also do not extend your Visa at Immigration.

According to the poster- the letter was to be a general template that can be adjusted to fit the Nationality and your  situation.  He has been proactive and I for one will be sending the letter along with the 4 other emails I have already sent.

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

According to the poster- the letter was to be a general template that can be adjusted to fit the Nationality and your  situation.  He has been proactive and I for one will be sending the letter along with the 4 other emails I have already sent.

There are several typos -- please check for grammar.  I did the letter in a hurry.

[JLCrab]

I would say, having read the sample template, that any decision as suggested at least for the US would have to originate at the Department of State in Washington DC and that no one at the US Embassy Bangkok would have the authority to make any such decision or change in notary policy.

[Tanoshi]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

According to the poster- the letter was to be a general template that can be adjusted to fit the Nationality and your  situation.  He has been proactive and I for one will be sending the letter along with the 4 other emails I have already sent.

No doubt with the same answers.

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

UK never did that they required bank statements you are incorrect (not that it matters).

But they, British Emabassy, never verified that the documentary evidence was 100% kosher.

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, howiem said:

True, for now, but the elimination of the requirement for the letter starts 1 Jan 2019, so the letters are required until then.

We all HOPE that Immigration will eliminate the requirement for the letter. 

[Kalasin Jo]

6 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

No good for UK or Australian citizens.

You only address 'affidavits', which the UK and Australian Embassies do not use.

 

You also do not extend your Visa at Immigration.

Attached is an email I did send to the BE, no response. It may have sunk without trace in their complex emailing requirements. An acquaintance of mine wrote by post and did get a not very helpful response from the Ambassador other than implying but not specifically confirming that there is a transition period based on the 6 month validity ( a Thai validity period apparently) 1576683861_Immigrationdirectiveforincomeletters.pdf of such income letters. But do all IOs accept that? Apparently Phuket doesn't.

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

But they, British Emabassy, never verified that the documentary evidence was 100% kosher.

Neither did, or can any other Embassy do.

[cleopatra2]

10 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Neither did, or can any other Embassy do.

Does it not go further than verifying the income , but related to accountability.

 

The applicant may have the income when the statements are produced , and the extension applied for. However can the embassies guarantee that circumstances will not arise to the effect that the applicants income no longer exists.

Edited November 9, 2018 by cleopatra2

[sniggie]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I suppose you feel that you are 'helping' us by being a back channel for the British Embassy but when you are pressed for an explanation- you become irritated.  That is not very diplomatic and is  rude.

 

There are people who are quite worried over their future- Most have the income but  proving it and understanding how to do this is the issue.  You claim the Embassy has already provided the information but in truth  it has only provided a general look into the future.

If you know anything about Thai Immigration- you will know that there is the  Thai HQ  way of doing things and then the local way of doing things.  IOs don;'t react well to attempts to get them to follow the  overall directive. There are already  reports of some offices accepting the Embassy letters without problems. Some Offices want to see the  proof from the foreign source to include a pension letter, others  want the proof to be only a government pension  This will continue  in the same manner it has always existed even when Embassy letters were in vogue.

 

If you are indeed a back channel to the Embassy- you may want to keep abreast of all the issues  citizens are having and will have.  If you are in contact with Thai Imm and in the process of negotiating anything- i would suggest that Thai  Imm at the very least accept all Embassy letters from any source until December 31, 2019. This will give plenty of time for everyone to get their next extension and adjust to a new way of doing business without  using Embassy letters.  This will allow the 'new' system to be tested on those that arrive  after January 2019 and cannot get letters and allow the Embassies  and both Thai Immigration to follow and document any issues.

 

Since the Embassies  indicate they are concerned about their citizens welfare- it is incumbent  upon them to assist in this transition and  listen to their constituents and not chastise them for asking  questions.  Have a nice day!

I totally agree with your comments (and those of the previous poster) regarding a confirmed transition period. My case is probably not dissimilar to many of us.  My extension falls due on 22nd April. I will, of course, obtain a letter from the British Embassy before the end of the year and, all being well, get my next extension in late March. That's plan A. I will be keeping a very close eye on developments in January, however, to see if there are any signs that BE letters are no longer being accepted. If I know by mid-January then I can liquidate some assets in the UK (at a cost) and bring sufficient money across in time for it to be appropriately seasoned. That's plan B. If, however, things start to go wrong in February then I'm a bit stuffed. Plan C is hoping that the transfers that I have made in the last year are in a form that is acceptable to Jomtien immigration (they will be sufficient in value, my wife sees to that!).  There is no plan D!    

[pookiki]

https://www.change.org/p/us-reinstate-income-verification-affidavits-by-the-uk-us-and-australian-embassies-in-thailand

[luckyluke]

Wait & See :

 

If Income letters issued in 2018 will still be accepted in 2019 ( Despite it is announced as such )

 

If income letters, issued in 2019 by other embassies than the known 3, will be accepted by T.I..

 

If T.I. will issue new directives.

 

If all Immigration offices will apply the same rules.

 

 

[soalbundy]

27 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

We all HOPE that Immigration will eliminate the requirement for the letter. 

why ? it's a straight forward procedure that the IO likes ro accept and it is the same for everybody, speeds things up

[Lovethailandelite]

20 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Attached is an email I did send to the BE, no response. It may have sunk without trace in their complex emailing requirements. An acquaintance of mine wrote by post and did get a not very helpful response from the Ambassador other than implying but not specifically confirming that there is a transition period based on the 6 month validity ( a Thai validity period apparently) 1576683861_Immigrationdirectiveforincomeletters.pdf of such income letters. But do all IOs accept that? Apparently Phuket doesn't.

Nobody has the time or inclination to read and reply to a rambling letter regarding frozen pensions, exchange rates or personal circumstances that the BE has zero control over.

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

why ? it's a straight forward procedure that the IO likes ro accept and it is the same for everybody, speeds things up

Except for those nationalities who's embassy will no longer issue the letter.

[lkv]

2 hours ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Not necessarily so. For the first time I decided that my next marriage extension would be by Embassy letter, firstly because I am a pensioner now ,whilst my savings are tied up. So this announcement was a shock as I do not have access to release savings in the time available ( and even if I did I would face a tax bill of 30% on such release when I had budgeted to avoid that anyway) until my renewal in January. So I have obtained my first and last BE pension letter and will go along with just that and see. Second because I have another home in Europe, which of course has attaching outgoings and when I'm there of course living expenses for myself and for my Thai wife who joins me there. In other words neither I nor she spend all our time, or money, in Thailand. So the Income letter seemed ideal. No need to stick 400k in my Thai bank unusable for the 2 months prior to renewal, and no need to be remitting 40k a month to the bank when we are not here either. But now I can prove neither requirement for my upcoming extension renewal. Hopefully there will be a transition or grace period ( the BE actually uses the words transition period in a letter to an acquaintance of mine) during which Embassy Income letters will suffice, and then for the renewal after this I can work out a way ( probably in part a loan ) to put 400k in the bank again, without hitting a high tax bill in my country of fiscal residence...or I guess I could just bite the bullet and sell up inEurope and live here full time. That's always been a back up long term plan, but hadn't got there in my head yet!!

The ideal scenario for you would be, especially since you travel to Europe regularly, to apply for a multiple entry non O-A in your home country, and if stretched the right way, it would cover you for up to 2 years. Then repeat after 2 years and/or make those decisions to sell or not to sell later in time.

[pookiki]

One thing about TVF, is that there are so many detractors and trolls frustrating and obfuscating important issues in a thread. If you are not affected by the cessation of income verification affidavits or otherwise don't give a rat's ass, I would ask you to give space to those individuals who actually believe they can have an impact on the system - whether it be from our embassies or Thai Immigration. There are people adversely affected by this change. I, for one, think we should attempt ot make our respective embassy personnel responsive to our concerns.

[howiem]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

it's already been posted, I don't believe this is anything new as the regulations have never mentioned an embassy letter in the past either but still insist on them.

I also called Bangkok Immigration yesterday and was told that  they will accept affidavits (or similar embassy-issued letters) up to 6 months after the end of 2018, so if someone gets a letter dated, say 20 December 2018 it will be good for 6 months, but anything dated on 1 January or later will not be accepted.

[dpspike]

I am not surprised at all that my government has abandoned the income affidavit. My experience with both the US Consulates in Thailand is that they don't give a damn about me or my rights as a US citizen. They are primarily concerned with making money to cover their overhead. They hire loads of Thais to work there, paying them low salaries. Most can barely speak English, if at all. So "NO", I don't believe that the US Consulates give a damn whether abandoning the income affidavit has a negative impact on US expats.

Edited November 9, 2018 by dpspike

[howiem]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

yes, there is no mention of the embassy letter, the only sticking point is that IO's across the board demand one or no extension

I called Immigration at CW yesterday and was told that letters dated 1 Jan 2019 or later would not be accepted. May not be true at every immigration office.

[007 RED]

7 hours ago, pookiki said:

Is it possible for you to post the content of the Income Verification Letter utilized by the British Embassy?

As you will see the BE letter below is dated 11 August 2014 and has the exact same wording (including the caveat at the bottom) as the one that I received in August this year,  The only difference being that the Embassy added an embossed 'seal' onto their letter from 2016 onwards.

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

As you will see the BE letter below is dated 11 August 2014 and has the exact same wording (including the caveat at the bottom) as the one that I received in August this year,  The only difference being that the Embassy added an embossed 'seal' onto their letter from 2016 onwards.

Thank you for providing this.  As you said, it is almost identical to the letter issued by the Netherlands Embassy to its citizens.  One can only wonder why the Netherlands and other embassies who issue similar letter perceive that there is no problem with the continued issuance and acceptance of such letters by Thai Immigration officials.  Did the US, UK, and Australia do something offensive to Thai Immigration officials in May that resulted in this problem?