Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Can you give a few examples. may be all those people whining about or reluctant to bring 65K/month to Thailand, should move to those countries. In Malaysia, I know you have to bring the money inside the country. 

"whining"

 

Sure thing buddy.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Don't the Phils require you to make some kind of bank deposit or local real estate investment?  And I thought something similar in Malaysia....

 

Philippines have a number of different packages, some don't require income at all. The last I checked the income ones don't require annual import though I'm not confident about that at the moment. You get approval there it is for LIFE (as long as you aren't a criminal and pay the annual fees). Look, each nation that has such a program is somewhat different. I am generalizing about Latin America because it's easy to do so there. Often they have different programs. One specifically for people with GOVERNMENT PENSIONS and another for people with other kinds of income.  Thailand mixes it up as we know. 

 

Malaysia has much higher level requirements than Thailand or pretty much everywhere in Latin America.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

The typical thing in Latin America (where most of these formal programs exist) is for government pension income to be proven by documentation that is APOSTLED, typically done ONE TIME, sometimes more often.

 

 

Thanks for the elaboration, Jing.

 

The Latin American countries/banks probably don't need to get exorcized about foreigners depositing their meager funds into their local banks, because those local banks probably in many cases awash with more drug-related cash than they know what to do with!  

[onera1961]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Almost all of them! The exceptions are few. For example Peru. 

How about popular destinations for Americans like Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks for the elaboration, Jing.

 

The Latin American countries/banks probably don't need to get exorcized about foreigners depositing their meager funds into their local banks, because those local banks probably in many cases awash with more drug-related cash than they know what to do with!  

There are pros and cons to each nation's programs (of those that have them at all, most in the world don't). For example Ecuador which interests a lot of people these days now has a HEALTH INSURANCE requirement. It's always something!

[billd766]

2 hours ago, The Truth said:

I'm not gloating. I'm asking a question and your response goes part of the way to answering it.

 

You're essentially saying that some just don't have the money.

Well that, good sir, means they don't meet the financial requirements in which case they cannot have the extensions of stay which is precisely the point of the immigration service's insistence on income verification.

People seem outraged by the fact that they're no longer allowed to fiddle their way to a one year extension.

The sheer entitlement of it is astonishing.

 

 

Actually you are incorrect. Many of us here have the income though not necessarily the capital to put up 800,000 baht.

 

Also most of us don't fiddle even though you seem outraged by it.

 

The reason that the embassies cannot verify income is due to the data protection act in many western countries and the time, staff and costs involved.

 

For the UK to be contacted, unless there is a secure link between the embassy and EACH single pension provider in the UK, (and the person concerned has to give his permission to do so), then extra staff need to be employed to contact each pension provider and work unsocial hours (the UK is currently 7 hours behind Thailand time) to check some 3,000 applications per year. In the case of the US embassy the same is required and the USA is some 12 or more hours behind Thai time, so their staff will be working a night shift.

 

The costs will be high and certainly added to the bill for the embassy document. In the UK embassies case it may well be double, triple or even higher than the current 2,400 baht.

[totally thaied up]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Thailand mixes it up as we know. 

Hence that is why I think they are going to go down the road of cash in the bank.

 

I will say, it will be too much of a headache if they wanted to start looking at an income that is not substantiated (they cannot predict what your income is going to be every year on dividends or rent) and pensions do change. I am on a DSP (disabled) now until in 15 years time it turns into an Old Age Pension. All this income stuff just opens up too many cans of worms for Immigration. I believe they will keep it very simple.

 

The Embassy cannot verify income and I don't want them to due to privacy matters and neither can Immigration. In the end, cash will be it. Just bring in what they say and how they want. We will not know until next year what they really want and as we know, each Immigration office here is different to what they want.

 

Otherwise, Immigration would have to change the whole system. That I cannot see happening. So, it will be a wait and see.

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

How about popular destinations for Americans like Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador

I need to refresh my details on all those. I recall Costa Rica does require import but the amount much less than Thailand. Costa Rica has become less popular in recent decades. I don't like Costa Rica because they have the most boring food of any country I've ever visited. 

 

BTW, Ecuador also has a bank method. About 27K USD. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Jingthing

[totally thaied up]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Actually you are incorrect. Many of us here have the income though not necessarily the capital to put up 800,000 baht.

My Australian DSP will not cover the income method. Just about everyone's OAP or DSP in Australia won't cover the income method if you need 65K. I am way too young to have access to a Super Fund at 49 but I have more than enough capital to put up the cash that is needed. I have no way possible but to use cash for a marriage visa. So it can be the opposite way around. Cash-rich, income poor. Some of us like to have cash on hand.

[onera1961]

40 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I need to refresh my details on all those. I recall Costa Rica does require import but the amount much less than Thailand. Costa Rica has become less popular in recent decades. I don't like Costa Rica because they have the most boring food of any country I've ever visited. 

 

BTW, Ecuador also has a bank method. About 27K USD. 

Bottomline, no country operates on Embassy affidavits. Most countries require import of money or verification of some type of stable income like SS or trust fund or investment inside the country. Thailand was the only wild wild East where people from the West can come here and call it home with and income affidavit from their embassies. I think requirements in Thailand is still very relaxed compared to any country in the world  with comparable  infrastructure and facilities. Yes, Thailand has its problem but still it is a livable country for the long-term retirees. Thailand is registering a surge in foreign investment, peoples disposable incomes are rising and if it asks us to show you bring 65K every month (40K for married), it is not asking for too much, in my opinion. Just bring 65K every month (ok, you can still play round robin game if you're short of 65K) and be happy. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[crazygreg44]

Allow me my 5 cents about the income affidavit case. I think that Immigration is not going to accept banking receipts over monthly money coming into your Thai bank account from abroad, as a proof of income. Why I think so? Well, it is not scam-proof ! . . . . . . . .Let me show you . . . because you literally can spray fog over the fact that you, let’s say, only make 45,000 THB per month. Imagine you hold two bank accounts in Thailand, and use only ONE for receiving 65,000+ THB from your USA or UK account every month. In Thailand you withdraw cash 20,000 THB from account #1 and put into account #2. Then you transfer the 20,000 THB to your USA/UK account. (Fees and exchange rate losses not taken into consideration here,ok?) In the meantime, your USA/UK account has accumulated another 45,000 THB and you top this up with the 20,000 THB to make the next transfer of 65,000 THB from USA/UK to Thailand. Let’s call this an “Income carousel” or a “transfer carousel”. You could actually hide the fact that your income is much much less than the 65,000 THB needed for the extensions, while not needing 800,000 in a bank. I consider the Thai side clever enough for not being aware of it

[evadgib]

4 hours ago, pookiki said:

The issue of 'income' verification in lieu of 800,000 baht in the bank has been thrashed about with no clear indication of what is acceptable to show 'income'. We should not lose focus that the purpose of this thread is to get our embassies to reinstate the issuance of income verification affidavits if Thai Immigration is telling they have no problem with the content of the letter as it now exists.

Grant PR & grandfather it to married/retired extn holders who have lived trouble-free in the kingdom for at least 3 years.

Sweeten it further by adding a reset button for any idiot caught drink driving.

Edited November 9, 2018 by evadgib

[onera1961]

15 minutes ago, crazygreg44 said:

Allow me my 5 cents about the income affidavit case. I think that Immigration is not going to accept banking receipts over monthly money coming into your Thai bank account from abroad, as a proof of income. Why I think so? Well, it is not scam-proof ! . . . . . . . .Let me show you . . . because you literally can spray fog over the fact that you, let’s say, only make 45,000 THB per month. Imagine you hold two bank accounts in Thailand, and use only ONE for receiving 65,000+ THB from your USA or UK account every month. In Thailand you withdraw cash 20,000 THB from account #1 and put into account #2. Then you transfer the 20,000 THB to your USA/UK account. (Fees and exchange rate losses not taken into consideration here,ok?) In the meantime, your USA/UK account has accumulated another 45,000 THB and you top this up with the 20,000 THB to make the next transfer of 65,000 THB from USA/UK to Thailand. Let’s call this an “Income carousel” or a “transfer carousel”. You could actually hide the fact that your income is much much less than the 65,000 THB needed for the extensions, while not needing 800,000 in a bank. I consider the Thai side clever enough for not being aware of it

If I were the immigration boss, I will allow this loophole to exists with specific instructions in the police regulation not to do this with severe penalty and blacklisting for life, if caught  I will gather more data. (Thailand 4.0) There is only a finite number of of ways you can send money back and remit again, unless you're involved in money laundering (which is crime by itself, I guess). In the second round I will handle those involved in this round-robin game and blacklist them for life. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[gk10002000]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think none of this is going to end up being relevant to Thailand Immigration's monthly income policy (though who knows...)

 

But I do know, I have Roth and regular IRA accounts. Every month, they generate regular and predictable dividend INCOME that gets credited to my accounts. And it's my choice to either reinvest that income into other investments, leave that income as cash balances, or withdraw that income (and pay tax on it for a regular IRA, or pay no tax on it for a Roth IRA).

 

Do I consider those dividend earning as income? Absolutely I do. Just as Thai Immigration regs say that bank interest and various other sources are countable as income. But whether any of that will have any meaning under the coming no income letters Immigration regime, I have no idea.

 

yes yes and yes.  Time will tell what the heck the Thais will understand, want, or demand.

[gk10002000]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I disagree with you.

IRA's are a special kind of account.

Only amounts withdrawn are reportable as income to the IRS. 

Roth ones are not taxed by traditional ones are, that is the amount that is WITHDRAWN. 

I've considered it also debatable whether withdrawn IRA funds that reportable as INCOME to the IRS are really technically "income" by the standards of the Thai immigration system. On that I'm not sure but as they seem to be transitioning away from verifying income as opposed to only looking into transfers in, perhaps an academic distinction. 

Now as far as withdrawing Traditional IRA monies and they "show" as income, is that really income?  Not if one sold off an equity.  That equity no longer earns or pays income.  But the withdrawal will show up on the 1040.  So don't confuse just withdrawing money from an IRA with is the IRA actually earning money via dividends and interest. 

[onera1961]

14 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Grant PR & grandfather it to married/retired extn holders who have lived trouble-free in the kingdom for at least 3 years.

I don't like grandfathering for single persons (for married people it is OK, because if it is the humane thing to not break up families). By the way, I am single. Not advocating my case. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by onera1961

[gk10002000]

18 minutes ago, crazygreg44 said:

Allow me my 5 cents about the income affidavit case. I think that Immigration is not going to accept banking receipts over monthly money coming into your Thai bank account from abroad, as a proof of income. Why I think so? Well, it is not scam-proof ! . . . . . . . .Let me show you . . . because you literally can spray fog over the fact that you, let’s say, only make 45,000 THB per month. Imagine you hold two bank accounts in Thailand, and use only ONE for receiving 65,000+ THB from your USA or UK account every month. In Thailand you withdraw cash 20,000 THB from account #1 and put into account #2. Then you transfer the 20,000 THB to your USA/UK account. (Fees and exchange rate losses not taken into consideration here,ok?) In the meantime, your USA/UK account has accumulated another 45,000 THB and you top this up with the 20,000 THB to make the next transfer of 65,000 THB from USA/UK to Thailand. Let’s call this an “Income carousel” or a “transfer carousel”. You could actually hide the fact that your income is much much less than the 65,000 THB needed for the extensions, while not needing 800,000 in a bank. I consider the Thai side clever enough for not being aware of it

Absolutely agree.  Just showing transfers in does not show one has any regular or steady or future income.  There are many ways to abuse the idea, or satisfy the Thais but not really proving much about future income.  heck, a person could just be spending down a small lump sum of money with no foreseeable income.  One could "borrow" the money.   time will tell how this will shake out.

[newatthis]

11 hours ago, pookiki said:

I have taken the liberty of drafting a sample/template letter to be used by all interested UK, US,  and Australian citizens to send to your appropriate embassy official (the Consul General in the case of the US Embassy) concerning the revocation on issuing income verification documents. The sample is attached to this post in word format.   Please tweak the letter as you deem appropriate to address your own particular situation.

 

I would encourage all those expats affected by this problem to send/email a letter to your embassy as soon as possible.  I will also explore creating an online petition address the current situation as well.

 

Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Sample Embassy Letter.docx

Did you manage to bring this matter up at the FCCT? 

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

Now as far as withdrawing Traditional IRA monies and they "show" as income, is that really income?  Not if one sold off an equity.  That equity no longer earns or pays income.  But the withdrawal will show up on the 1040.  So don't confuse just withdrawing money from an IRA with is the IRA actually earning money via dividends and interest. 

It is income according to the IRS. Dividends and interest within the account are NOT.

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I don't like grandfathering for single persons (for married people it is OK, because if it is the humane thing to not break up families). By the way, I am single. Not advocating my case. 

Excuse me? So single people are less than to you? I find that bigoted. 

[Jingthing]

50 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Bottomline, no country operates on Embassy affidavits. Most countries require import of money or verification of some type of stable income like SS or trust fund or investment inside the country. Thailand was the only wild wild East where people from the West can come here and call it home with and income affidavit from their embassies. I think requirements in Thailand is still very relaxed compared to any country in the world  with comparable  infrastructure and facilities. Yes, Thailand has its problem but still it is a livable country for the long-term retirees. Thailand is registering a surge in foreign investment, peoples disposable incomes are rising and if it asks us to show you bring 65K every month (40K for married), it is not asking for too much, in my opinion. Just bring 65K every month (ok, you can still play round robin game if you're short of 65K) and be happy. 

You're absolutely right about at least one thing. I know of no other nation that relies on annual embassy income letters for such qualifying matters. But there are other ways of doing it other than requiring full annual import of claimed income. Most commonly proving the income streams directly (especially lifetime government pensions) to the destination government. Usually one time and that's it. It seems to me Thailand could look at that as an option for people with government pensions as opposed to going full on with the required import thing. But of course it looks like they're going in the import requirement direction and that's totally at their discretion. 

[Pattaya46]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

// It seems to me Thailand could look at that as an option for people with government pensions as opposed to going full on with the required import thing. 

Reading recent topics about Income Letter, it seems to me that these government pensions are not very high. I several times have read 40'000B or alike, so well below the 65'000B required by TI.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Pattaya46 said:

Reading recent topics about Income Letter, it seems to me that these government pensions are not very high. I several times have read 40'000B or alike, so well below the 65'000B required by TI.

True that but if the combo method is retained, having that income claim would make it easier to make the cut. Cheers.

[bikerlou47]

Is there anyone out there that is using a combination of pension and deposit to get to the 800,000 baht requirement?

 

Thank you

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, bikerlou47 said:

Is there anyone out there that is using a combination of pension and deposit to get to the 800,000 baht requirement?

 

Thank you

It's not a rare thing. 

[fforest1]

49 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

If I were the immigration boss, I will allow this loophole to exists with specific instructions in the police regulation not to do this with severe penalty and blacklisting for life, if caught  I will gather more data. (Thailand 4.0) There is only a finite number of of ways you can send money back and remit again, unless you're involved in money laundering (which is crime by itself, I guess). In the second round I will handle those involved in this round-robin game and blacklist them for life. 

Some members here would make a Nazi proud....Yea put the screws to some one and blacklist them for life because they were a little short of the 65,000 and had to take other measures....

Now if they were rich they would be a fine human being....But if they are a little short they are nothing but trash..... 

[Curt1591]

11 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Please feel free not to answer the following if you so wish

 

In your opinion did the supervisor appear confident iwhen making this statement.

Was there any inclinations to feel that this was only for the Bangkok area/office

After saying that the documentation, provided by my Stateside institutions, wasn't sufficient, she immediately pointed out this option. Seems legit to me. 

 

[Curt1591]

11 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Please feel free not to answer the following if you so wish

 

In your opinion did the supervisor appear confident iwhen making this statement.

Was there any inclinations to feel that this was only for the Bangkok area/office

 

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

Unfortunately Thai people have a habit of telling you what you want to hear, whether it's true or not!

 

It's not malicious, they are just trying to please you and avoid conflict. Always take any facts that a Thai gives you with a pinch of salt.

In our case, no one told us anything that we wanted to hear. Instead, they offered alternative solutions. 

They may have been blowing smoke. However, they showed no hesitation, no confusion, and seemed very professional.

[pookiki]

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Transferwise certainly can be used to transfer funds from U.S. banks to Thai banks, even with BKKB NY having nothing to do with it.  Although, TFW is raising their fees now or very soon for U.S. to Thailand transfers. Think of Transferwise as a kind of wire transfer substitute.

 

As for the International ACH issue, I don't know of any U.S. bank that currently enables IAT compatible ACH transfers for their customers. Wire transfers yes. IATs, I know of none.

 

Yes, it is a wire transfer substitute as you note.  And what I have learned to date is that I would have to do a 'domestic wire transfer' from my bank to TransferWise account in the US who will then convert dollars to baht and send to my Bangkok Bank account in Thailand.  As such, I will be paying two fees but the TransferWise exchange rate will most likely be superior to that of Bangkok Bank. 

[pookiki]

6 hours ago, newatthis said:

Did you manage to bring this matter up at the FCCT? 

Unfortunately, the issue was only touched on briefly and I didn't have the chance to make it to the microphone to ask the question directly to the panelists at the meeting.  I did speak with several head officials with Democrats Abroad Thailand and one of them said she would check out the situation in Chiang Mai and get back to me. To date, there has been no contact.