Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[JLCrab]

22 minutes ago, lkv said:

Ok, so you were likely referring to the inconvenience of travelling to the US every two years

You're certainly right it's inconvenient -- no sex with hot young Thai girls for a couple of weeks. But somehow, I think I'll manage.

[The Truth]

4 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Some wives can actually have the effect of keeping a man's budget in check. If someone's wife or girlfriend (or someone in their extended family) is elevating their budget disproportionately, that's a problem for them alone - nobody held a gun to their head.

 

What surprises me is the broad lack of empathy shown on here to people who've managed to stay in country for years on a modest budget and support their families, who are now adversely affected by this ugly sweep by immigration. 

What was the reaction from retirees and married expats when immigration clamped down on exempts, tourist and education visas being used by younger expats for long stays in Thailand?

Was it concern or was it more like a smug, self-satisfied 'som nam na'?

 

[The Truth]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And how would TI know that?

Didn't say they know it for a fact but does it matter?

It's reasonable to believe they wouldn't be asking for verification if they were sure no one was gaming the system.

[Pattaya46]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And how would TI know that?

When IO asked for additional proofs on the income amount on the Embassy Letter and the people were unable to show them these proofs...?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

37 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Or, conversely, one has to wonder why the 3 embassies decided to stop issuing the letters and the majority of embassies didn't.

The U.S. Embassy said the following:

 

Quote

The self-sworn affidavits notarized at the Embassy and Consulate General do not meet the Thai requirement to certify the income of U.S. citizens.

 

Well, they met Thai Immigration's requirements for all the past years when the U.S. process was exactly the same. So, the only conclusion to draw here is, Thai Immigration has changed what they demand, at least from the U.S. and a few others.

Edited November 10, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Spidey]

38 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

You're certainly right it's inconvenient -- no sex with hot young Thai girls for a couple of weeks. But somehow, I think I'll manage.

You're lucky. I originally applied for an OA at the Thai Embassy in London, in preparation for my move over here. Took me 2 months to obtain my police clearance and at not inconsiderable cost.

 

Queued up in the embassy for what seemed like hours and eventually saw a Thai lady behind the counter. She diligently went through all my documentation and then said that I was ineligible for an OA visa as I was under 65. I pointed out that their website said that I qualified with my age. She then said, "Yes in Thailand but retirement age in UK is 65". I then produced a copy of the London Thai Embassy web page that clearly stated I was eligible. She read it, looked up and said, "This is not from our website, it's fake." I started to protest, but she refused to say anything else and shooed me away from the counter.

 

At that, I gave up, obtained a 6 week tourist visa and applied for my Non O in Thailand.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Spidey

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, The Truth said:

Didn't say they know it for a fact but does it matter?

It's reasonable to believe they wouldn't be asking for verification if they were sure no one was gaming the system.

Not really, could be a show of strength prior to the election. Appeals to their xenophobic base.

 

Also, probably announced to the meeting by a middle ranking IO acting on his own initiative and well before Big Joke took office. After all the furore it's caused, I could well imagine said official being bent over Big Joke's desk as we speak, receiving a good stiff talking to, prior to boarding the bus to Poipet to start his next night shift.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Spidey

[The Truth]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Not really, could be a show of strength prior to the election. Appeals to their xenophobic base.

 

Also, probably announced to the meeting by a middle ranking IO acting on his own initiative and well before Big Joke took office. After all the furore it's caused, I could well imagine said official being bent over Big Joke's desk as we speak, receiving a good stiff talking to, prior to boarding the bus to Poipet to start his next night shift.

Oof, conspiracy theory time. 

[onera1961]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

"Yes in Thailand but retirement age in UK is 65".

No country in the world has 50-year retirement age. I think London Thai embassy is a big joke.

[Spidey]

Just now, The Truth said:

Oof, conspiracy theory time. 

Well, apart from discussing the real issue, i.e. viable alternatives for people who currently use the income method for obtaining their visa extensions, is there anything else on this thread? I think that we're all guilty of that.

[Thaidream]

19 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

When IO asked for additional proofs on the income amount on the Embassy Letter and the people were unable to show them these proofs...?

The extension denied and if suspected of lying a referral back to the Embassy.

[Spidey]

Just now, onera1961 said:

No country in the world has 50-year retirement age. I think London Thai embassy is a big joke.

Yes, unlike the British Embassy in Bangkok, who seem to employ mostly Thai nationals, The Thai Embassy in London employs exclusively nationals from their own country. Typical Thais in authority, probably bought their postings under the counter, arrogant, unreasonable and clueless at their jobs.

[Tanoshi]

21 minutes ago, Spidey said:

At that, I gave up, obtained a 6 week tourist visa and applied for my OA in Thailand.

You can't get an O-A Visa in Thailand.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

You can't get an O-A Visa in Thailand.

Sorry, meant to say Non O, I've edited my post. Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Spidey

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Well, apart from discussing the real issue, i.e. viable alternatives for people who currently use the income method for obtaining their visa extensions, is there anything else on this thread? I think that we're all guilty of that.

There is only one viable option for incomes to be verified by Immigration.

That is the income(s) being deposited in a Thai bank.

 

As with the already accepted method of proving the 400/800K funds deposited for 2/3 months before an extension application, by Thai passbook and bank letter.

 

However, Immigration would need to issue a new directive to the local offices as an acceptable method to prove income.

It's logical and workable, but it's whether Immigration can be bothered.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

No I don't but it is all I have as plan B, transferwise sends a statement online where the money came from and I have backup documents and German bank statements from internet banking, if this doesn't look viable next year then I / missus will borrow 400k (I am the legal father of a Thai child) using one of the houses as collateral and pay it off over 2 years. plan C.

My advise - don't use transferwise, unless your Thai Bank Book shows it as a Foreign Transfer.  Some BKB clients say it does - others vary. 

 

Chances are, if a new "income system" is permitted at all (or maybe at some offices - who knows), Immigration will only accept Thai-Bank documentation.  SWIFT fees may be a pita, but better that than stuck later with loan-interest on the 400K.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I can't see the point in engaging in fraud with the monthly income, you have to live of off something, what's the point in transferring 65k to Thailand and then sending it back out again, what do you live off.?

They would live off 40K or less, actually needed to live well (by most working-class people's standards) in Thailand. 

 

For honest applicants under the existing system, they would send back the excess, to pay any non-Thai costs, which were never part of the calculation before, and/or to maintain their non-Thai savings/investment strategy. 

 

In the case of those who don't have the 65K/mo, they would send back the excess to top-up the next incoming transaction to 65K.  Many more could now retire in Thailand this way, given the onerous felony-charge of lying on an affidavit has been taken out of the equation. 

[wgdanson]

39 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You're lucky. I originally applied for an OA at the Thai Embassy in London, in preparation for my move over here. Took me 2 months to obtain my police clearance and at not inconsiderable cost.

 

Queued up in the embassy for what seemed like hours and eventually saw a Thai lady behind the counter. She diligently went through all my documentation and then said that I was ineligible for an OA visa as I was under 65. I pointed out that their website said that I qualified with my age. She then said, "Yes in Thailand but retirement age in UK is 65". I then produced a copy of the London Thai Embassy web page that clearly stated I was eligible. She read it, looked up and said, "This is not from our website, it's fake." I started to protest, but she refused to say anything else and shooed me away from the counter.

 

At that, I gave up, obtained a 6 week tourist visa and applied for my Non O in Thailand.

Requirements for a Non Immigrant Visa 'O-A” (Retirement)

• Must be 50 years of age or over.

 

You go tell her Spidey.

Edited November 10, 2018 by wgdanson

[Kenny202]

It's just not fair that some people can just declare a false income. It's actually a loophole that was not known to Thai immigration until now.
 
If you really do have money, just transfer the money to a Thai bank.
 
 

Many here assuming a lot. Many of us have income as such from other countries....savings, interest, rent, stock dividends etc but as I beleive this is not classed as monthly income as far as the TI requires. Has to be a pension or government payment. Is that correct?

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

Just to be clear., nothing has changed with Thai Immigration's policies. It is the retirees' respective embassy that are stuffing things up. 

If you think the embassies are all lying, and coordinating their stories to boot, perhaps.  It is certainly possible among those 3 players. 

 

But I was more willing to believe that could be the case when only the BE was involved.   Now, it would seem TI are the ones who suddenly changed what they expect. 

 

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

It's just not fair that some people can just declare a false income. It's actually a loophole that was not known to Thai immigration until now.

The disclaimers on the letters, stating exactly what they were, is not new.  Any objection to the nature of the embassy-letters should have been raised years ago.  No, TI didn't just "discover" this - they just decided it wasn't good enough, any more.

 

Expats are not the ones running large, profitable agent-extension-scams "for a living," so to contend that TI is concerned about "honesty," because some might be spending a little less than 65K "free money" into the country, is ludicrous.  

 

I don't mean that as a personal-attack - just a reflection of the "nature of the system" here - it's like a bank-robber pointing an accusatory finger at a poor guy stealing a loaf of bread.

[Kenny202]

 

Yeah, sod the wife and kids, pull my stepdaughter out of college and tell her papa is history, go look after the kwai.
 
 

 
Well, if that is what will happen to you and your family, then you need to man up and accept that - 'cos there is absolutely zero chance of any embassy listening and acting on your complaints - zero, nothing, nada...
 
Update:  ... and you would do all the above for the sake of not putting 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account??
Did you ever consider the guy might not have 800k ready cash? And who are you to know what the embassy will or will not do in the future.

Man up and accept losing your family...your life? Thats manning up? Why do people come on here and just go on the attack. If the guys here supporting Thai nationals I would surmise he is of more value to the country and its citizens than many others

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sniggie]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

How is transferwise short circuiting the system, you can only use it to bring money in to Thailand not however to send it out, I will be using this system. I need more than the 65k a month for my family anyway.

I've raised the point of Transferwise a couple of times. I am with Kbank and, due to the passbook update machine not reading the magnetic strip on my book, I've been rather lax about updating it. So today I thought I'd look at my statement online. What a shock! Up until August my monthly transfers (generally 2K GBP) using Transferwise were showing as coming from the International Trade and Factoring Centre with a TFN number. All well and good, I thought. Now from late August onwards they are shown as coming from a Dummy Branch with an MCL number, whatever that is. It never rains but it pours! I know we are a long way from discovering what sort of transfer (if any) will be acceptable in the future but this change couldn't have come at a worse moment.  I'll be off to the bank soon to see if they can find out if they can state that these transfers do in fact come from overseas. So it behoves all of us to keep an eye on the way Transferwise get the money into our Thai bank accounts as it would appear that it can change without us knowing.    

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

Well, if that is what will happen to you and your family, then you need to man up and accept that - 'cos there is absolutely zero chance of any embassy listening and acting on your complaints - zero, nothing, nada...

 

Update:  ... and you would do all the above for the sake of not putting 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account??

Think you missed the point, it's called sarcasm. 

[chickenslegs]

7 minutes ago, sniggie said:

I've raised the point of Transferwise a couple of times. I am with Kbank and, due to the passbook update machine not reading the magnetic strip on my book, I've been rather lax about updating it. So today I thought I'd look at my statement online. What a shock! Up until August my monthly transfers (generally 2K GBP) using Transferwise were showing as coming from the International Trade and Factoring Centre with a TFN number. All well and good, I thought. Now from late August onwards they are shown as coming from a Dummy Branch with an MCL number, whatever that is. It never rains but it pours! I know we are a long way from discovering what sort of transfer (if any) will be acceptable in the future but this change couldn't have come at a worse moment.  I'll be off to the bank soon to see if they can find out if they can state that these transfers do in fact come from overseas. So it behoves all of us to keep an eye on the way Transferwise get the money into our Thai bank accounts as it would appear that it can change without us knowing.    

Some useful information about this in another thread ... https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1067280-krungsri-bank-report/?do=findComment&comment=13544014

[lkv]

24 minutes ago, sniggie said:

Up until August my monthly transfers (generally 2K GBP) using Transferwise were showing as coming from the International Trade and Factoring Centre with a TFN number. All well and good, I thought. Now from late August onwards they are shown as coming from a Dummy Branch with an MCL number, whatever that is.

What difference would it make, you would not be purchasing property, you would be applying for an extension.

 

So TFN or MCL, does it matter?

 

On that logic, you may just as well have your wife send you 65K a month from her local account, or just cash deposit, if they will accept proof of income this way. Which I would prefer to think,  knowing this is Thailand , that they probably won't.

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[Artisi]

19 minutes ago, sniggie said:

I've raised the point of Transferwise a couple of times. I am with Kbank and, due to the passbook update machine not reading the magnetic strip on my book, I've been rather lax about updating it. So today I thought I'd look at my statement online. What a shock! Up until August my monthly transfers (generally 2K GBP) using Transferwise were showing as coming from the International Trade and Factoring Centre with a TFN number. All well and good, I thought. Now from late August onwards they are shown as coming from a Dummy Branch with an MCL number, whatever that is. It never rains but it pours! I know we are a long way from discovering what sort of transfer (if any) will be acceptable in the future but this change couldn't have come at a worse moment.  I'll be off to the bank soon to see if they can find out if they can state that these transfers do in fact come from overseas. So it behoves all of us to keep an eye on the way Transferwise get the money into our Thai bank accounts as it would appear that it can change without us knowing.    

Think I would be very easy to ask your bank once a year to prepare the necessary paper work addressed to Immigration stating that Bht xxx xxx has been received by overseas transfer to account number xxxxxxxxx, backed up with a copy of your bank book or yearly statement, if you can't show a reasonable bank balance and regular payments into your account to the value stipulated by immigration you must be trying to fly under the radar.

The rule is quite clear xx amount in the bank for the past couple of months, or yyy each month into your account or a combination of both. It's not rocket science, just abide by the rules. 

 

P. S. I don't particularly agree with the amounts and reporting requirements, but that's the rules - like or leave. 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Artisi

[joeyg]

On 11/8/2018 at 2:19 PM, pookiki said:

One issue you may also want to discuss is what you want to happen to your money in the event of your death.  I was told by a bank representative yesterday that I would need a will in Thailand to designate my beneficiaries and then it would be necessary for my beneficiaries to come to Thailand to 'probate' the will in the Thai court system.  Given this situation, I would rather minimize my exposure to the loss of money in the Thai banking system when I die.

That's about how I feel  Fortunately I am in a position to lock up 800,000 in a Thai bank but won't.  I've been coming here since 1971 and living here for about 4 years.  A saying that has been around a long time is "don't bring more money to Thailand than your willing to lose."  I prefer to live elsewhere and am planning to leave.  I like Thais and Thailand.  However I will not tolerate Thais telling me where and how to deposit my money.  That wasn't the understanding I came here under.  I see it sort of as a "breech of contract."  There are equal or better options for retirement open to me.  In addition I think this is just a "peek" at what this "suburb" of China has in store for "Farangs."  This is why I didn't buy a nice condo at a good price when I first came here.  If you think the US Gov/Embassy gives a flying $$$$ about expats here you are delusional.   IMHO.  We've got 120,000 homeless Vets in the states.  67% of children in the US have to choose between food or transportation.  Google it.  I could go on.  I trust the US government 0% and the Thai government less.  Again fortunately I'm in the position to just pick up and go elsewhere.  My heart goes out to honest guys that are now "caught in a lurch" somehow.

[Bang Bang]

The Elite is looking better and better. Think I'll bite the bullet and get one.

 

Then I'm going to go to CW once a month, stand in line and when I get to the counter pull out the Elite and when her jaw drops I'm going to put my hands to my ears and flap them, make monkey faces and shrieking noises. If the opportunity presents itself I might even expose myself to her quickly. Then, I'll turn around and sprint away with my arms straight out shouting cluck cluck, like a large flightless bird.

 

It'll be immensely satisfying.

[smedly]

not sure it is the Embassies you need to be approaching, the Letter/Affidavit system was flawed and was open to abuse - yes it was

 

I think the pressure needs to be with Thai Immigration to urgently clarify going forward what "all" their offices across the country will need and be accepted as "Income" to grant a 12 month extension, that should also include cover for those that want to use a combination method.

 

 

There is no simple solution to this apart from the current balance method of 400/800k baht

 

Proof of showing your pension income into your foreign bank would seem easy enough but it now seems that only government pensions would be accepted  (Phuket have stated this already), everyone that I know retired here receive "pensions" from different sources, not talking about other incomes which on the face of it are not guaranteed for life and that is totally understood - just official documented pensions which are guaranteed for life incomes. Not hard to provide these to immigration in a very simple way, letter from pension provider and your home bank statements - doesn't take a genius to understand these, backed up by very obvious expenditure cashflows from your Thai bank account activity over the last 12 months

[lkv]

9 minutes ago, Bang Bang said:

The Elite is looking better and better. Think I'll bite the bullet and get one.

 

Then I'm going to go to CW once a month, stand in line and when I get to the counter pull out the Elite and when her jaw drops I'm going to put my hands to my ears and flap them, make monkey faces and shrieking noises. If the opportunity presents itself I might even expose myself to her quickly. Then, I'll turn around and sprint away with my arms straight out shouting cluck cluck, like a large flightless bird.

 

It'll be immensely satisfying.

Thai Elite is a solution.

 

However, it should not be confused with "residency", "live like a Thai citizen" and all that, as they falsely advertise on their website.

 

It's a special tourist visa that gives holders a temporary permission of stay of 12 months upon entry, extendable locally with no further documentation for 12 months at a time.

 

So it's temporary just like the others.

 

The real solid options are PR and citizenship respectively, impossible to get for pensioneers here.

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv