Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

"I think that's Thai Immigration's side of the story, or at least the staff you were talking to. But I don't think it's the whole story or a particularly accurate version of the story."

I got this "story" from the woman who does the final sign off and hands over the extension stamped passports. Because we were the first in queue, after lunch, she wasn't rushed with any work on her desk as of yet. She wasn't trying brush us aside.

Personally, I'll take her word on it. 

"However, if what the staff at CW told you is correct, then we would be headed toward a double-standard situation where most other countries' embassies will continue issuing income letters that Immigration will accept using methods no more verifiable than those used by the British Embassy, at least. And meanwhile, American, Brits and Aussies will get screwed."

I can't speak for British or Australian citizens. But, as a US citizen, all I can say is "Welcome to America."

"So one has to wonder, why has Thai Immigration decided to single out those three embassies/nationalities and leave all the others undisturbed?"

 

Has Thai immigration singled out anyone?

Maybe The US embassy is staffed with anti-Trumpers, doing this to spite Trump's attempts at immigration reform. Maybe the British embassy is staffed with spiteful anti-Brexit individuals. As far as Oz is concerned, they follow the UK. 

 

I think you're beginning to go off the rails here....

 

1. I didn't doubt that's what the Immigration supervisor told you. I simply pointed out, her explanation doesn't fit with the other facts that are known to us.  There's zero indication the three Embassies simply decided to cease issuing income letters on their own.

 

2. Yes, Immigration does appear to have "singled out" the three Embassies that have now ceased issuing letters, because, there are tons of other countries' embassies that have identical or virtually identical verification methods to those that have been used by the Brits...  And from all indications, none of those others have been forced by Immigration out of the income letters business by being told their methods aren't sufficient.

 

3. I have no idea what "Welcome to America" is supposed to mean in this context.

 

[lkv]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

At the very least- now we are left with a Thai Imm department that is struggling with how to handle this issue. 

First of all, this has been started by Thai Immigration. Just to make it crystal clear.

 

Secondly, if the Embassies continue to issue worthless pieces of paper that they charge money for, you guys are going to say you are being scammed for 1,800 baht or whatever by them. So they will not issue them to avoid complications. Simple.

 

As far as Thai Immigration struggling, I don't see any struggle. Mister, no 800K, no extension for you. You guys can bring printouts from laws, cannot mister.

 

I don't see any struggle there and anybody believing they will choose to struggle may be delusional.

[Curt1591]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

So you talked to them about your Social Security benefit, and knew that right now it couldn't be direct deposited by SS to Thailand. But never broached the issue of what if YOU turned around and forwarded the same funds yourself into a Thai bank account???

 

So, what DID you come away with clarity about in terms of what the IOs there said would be acceptable?

 

You mentioned before about transfer to a Thai bank account from a foreign financial institution. Well, if you sent your SS funds from a U.S. bank, that would be a transfer from a foreign financial institution, unless they meant the payor and the sender had to be the same entity.

 

BTW, I much appreciate your responses. I'm just trying to reconcile your answers now with the prior posts you made on the same topic...

 

I have said what I remember. Any further clarification would be speculation, on my part, and others'.

This is a wrap for me. If anyone needs further clarification, and feel they can trust Thai Immigration officials, all I can do is recommend checking in with them. 

 

It's been a pleasure! 

BTW, there is a great khao mun gai stall in the CP Food Park!


 

[pookiki]

10 minutes ago, samran said:

Lots of wishful thinking on this thread. It scares me to say this, but I’ve been a member of TV since 2003. 

 

The concept of TV ‘expats’ organizing makes me chuckle. Most couldn’t organise a root in a brothel yet now expect to become professional lobbyists.

 

Over the years ham fisted attempts have been posted here on TV. The most memorable being ‘expat’ meetings at a subway sandwich shop around nana from memory. These meetings lasted all of 3 weeks. I must admit in their first week they managed to drag along some low ranking random policeman who happened to be related someone’s ‘connected’ teerak  at the time. Based on the pictures I saw, the poor copper sat there like a stunned mullet as people let steam off the chest and I think they only let him go after he promised to speak to ‘higher ups’. Which of course in his case meant his traffic warden boss in Minburi. 

 

While the embassy stat dec (as the aussies would call it) has been used my many legitimate retirees, people have to face facts it was open to rorting, and many did rort  it. Thai immigration have finally done something about this loophole so all that is left is for people to change their financial arrangements if they hope to stay.

 

For those who don’t trust Thai banks? Tough titties. Immigration do and that is all that matters.

 

i mean the system is generous enough as it is. Very few countries are going to let you stay more or less indefinitely on the basis of chucking a measly $25k (give or take) into a bank account.

 

Maybe I'm an idealist.  But everyone affected by this decision comes from countries with democratic forms of government. If I recall correctly, citizens in Australia are even 'fined' for not voting.

 

However, it would appear that the 'majority' opinion on this thread would be that we should give up a precious democratic right to petition our government for redress when we believe the government has not been accountable to its people.

 

To those of you who don't care about the implications of the cessation of the affidavits because you already have money in the bank, I guess you feel that you will accept whatever your told by your embassy officials in the belief that you have absolutely no power to change anything once your government officials issue an edict. Do you vote?  Do you care about anyone else but yourself?

 

Our democratic systems are failing because of apathy, because we believe we are powerless to bring about change.  The percentage of people who vote in the USA compared to the eligible voters is mind numbingly low. It clearly illustrates apathy in maintaining a democratic system of government.

 

So, do I relinquish what little political power I may have to all the 'nay' sayers on TVF or do I try to fight a system that has not treated us equitably or with respect. I will not.  And furthermore, I will not allow TVF 'mods' to be my spokesperson in this matter. Who exactly do they represent??

 

One poster in this thread advised a person to 'man up' and accept his fate under this new system.  To me, 'manning up' requires a person to stand up for their dignity and demand respect from their own government. I will never relinquish that right no matter how futile others may think it is. 

 

So, if the expat community is incapable of organizing, it will not impede me in helping those expats who are willing to help themselves.  And I do deeply care about everyone affected by this issue - especially those who may be torn from their families.  

[ChouDoufu]

not really a question of "democratic" here.

 

thai immigration has finally realized that embassies do NOT have the facilities or manpower to research and actually authenticate income, and that these authentications are legally useless.   they are nothing more than confirmation that you are who you say you are in section A.....and by the way you are saying some other stuff in section B that the embassy does not/can not/will not confirm.

 

***tis my understanding that the us embassy (and others) has never required proof of income for these affidavits, so correct me if i'm wrong.***

 

thai immigration demands embassies actually confirm income.  embassies can not.  the end.

 

the only organizing we need to do is xfer/top up $25K into a thai account every year that can be used for one year's living expenses.  lather, rinse, repeat.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ChouDoufu

[lkv]

11 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Maybe I'm an idealist.  But everyone affected by this decision comes from countries with democratic forms of government. If I recall correctly, citizens in Australia are even 'fined' for not voting.

 

Yeah, but since when is Thailand democratic? Maybe you forgot what happened in 2014 and that Thais keep waiting for elections? And there is a possibility they will keep waiting?

 

So this is a pro-China non-elected government, quite anti-foreigner I would say, and you expect things to function like in Australia?

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[Spidey]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

2. Yes, Immigration does appear to have "singled out" the three Embassies that have now ceased issuing letters, because, there are tons of other countries' embassies that have identical or virtually identical verification methods to those that have been used by the Brits...  And from all indications, none of those others have been forced by Immigration out of the income letters business by being told their methods aren't sufficient.

 

I believe that most embassies were represented at the meeting in May when TI asked for better verification (though exactly what they asked for we don't know). Three embassies weren't "singled out". As a result of the meeting 3 embassies took it upon themselves to discontinue the letters. The other embassies represented at the meeting resolved to do nothing and lie low, a normal response to a "crackdown" in Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

I believe that most embassies were represented at the meeting in May when TI asked for better verification (though exactly what they asked for we don't know). Three embassies weren't "singled out". As a result of the meeting 3 embassies took it upon themselves to discontinue the letters. The other embassies represented at the meeting resolved to do nothing and lie low, a normal response to a "crackdown" in Thailand.

 

Without knowing what exactly Immigration said and/or demanded, you're doing a whole lot of speculating without much foundation for it.

 

Also, I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere that there was some kind of "all embassies" meeting with Immigration back in the spring, vs. individual meetings between Immigration and whomever.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, ChouDoufu said:

not really a question of "democratic" here.

 

thai immigration has finally realized that embassies do NOT have the facilities or manpower to research and actually authenticate income, and that these authentications are legally useless.   they are nothing more than confirmation that you are who you say you are in section A.....and by the way you are saying some other stuff in section B that the embassy does not/can not/will not confirm.

 

thai immigration demands embassies actually confirm income.  embassies can not.  the end.

 

the only organizing we need to do is xfer/top up $25K into a thai account every year that can be used for one year's living expenses.  lather, rinse, repeat.

The three embassies unilaterally decided not to issue the affidavits.  There was no announcement or regulatory change by Thai Immigration.  Thai Immigration never said they would stop accepting the affidavits. The embassies have told us what Thai Immigration said there was never anything in writing from the Thai Immigration that the system would be terminated.  Unless and until you can show me something in writing from Thai Immigration that that the income verification affidavits would no longer be accepted, then our embassies jumped the gun.  Simple as that!

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

ai immigration has finally realized that embassies do NOT have the facilities or manpower to research and actually authenticate income, and that these authentications are legally useless.   they are nothing more than confirmation that you are who you say you are in section A.....and by the way you are saying some other stuff in section B that the embassy does not/can not/will not confirm.

I, for one, do not like  government entities of which the US Embassy is- making decisions about my potential life to which I am not privy to the process.  None of the 3 Embassies have provided any type of detailed report; explanation; letter detailing what was said; who said; and if there was any give and take or anyway that the letter could be changed, preserved or any positive way to solve the issue. They simply made a decision without any input from us the people who are affected.

 

I do not expect the Thai Imm to follow this policy or way of thinking as I respect their system of decision making which is top down.

 

The Us Consulate in Chiang Mai- on Nov 20- is having an open forum to discuss this issue.  While this is a start- it should have been done before the decision.

 

I, as most of us, will accept  what the Thai imm requires to remain in Thailand . That is not the issue

 

If you are of the opinion- it doesn't matter- that is up to you. There are others who do not like the feel of what is taking place; the lack of verifiable information or the rush.  I have already  sent my comments to my Embassy.  Others can do what they want but at least respect  our right to do as we want.

[lkv]

11 minutes ago, pookiki said:

The three embassies unilaterally decided not to issue the affidavits.  There was no announcement or regulatory change by Thai Immigration.  Thai Immigration never said they would stop accepting the affidavits. The embassies have told us what Thai Immigration said there was never anything in writing from the Thai Immigration that the system would be terminated.  Unless and until you can show me something in writing from Thai Immigration that that the income verification affidavits would no longer be accepted, then our embassies jumped the gun.  Simple as that!

Again, western logic applied to Thai thinking.

 

Thai Immigration will never say it's their fault or that it was their decision, they will keep passing the blame on anyone else but them, if they have the opportunity to do so.

 

We'll see. I am of the opinion that these decisions come from higher up in the chain, Immigration just executes, and Embassies rephrase it, not to put Immigration in a negative light and make them lose face.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[Spidey]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Without knowing what exactly Immigration said and/or demanded, you're doing a whole lot of speculating without much foundation for it.

Speculating yes but foundation yes.

 

There were more than the 3 embassies at the meeting - fact.

 

Only 3 embassies took any action as a result of the meeting - fact.

 

The other embassies at the meeting have taken no action and informed their citizens that they don't intend to take any action - fact.

 

Here's another fact for you to speculate on, no embassy took action for several months after the meeting then 3 embassies acted almost in unison. Collusion?

 

Get Bob Muller on the job, he'll sort it out!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, pookiki said:

The three embassies unilaterally decided not to issue the affidavits. 

 

That's NOT what the Embassies have said, as in:

 

The Brits:

"The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfill the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals."

 

and

 

"Thai Immigration want us to verify your income, and we are unable to do this."

 

And from the U.S.:

"The self-sworn affidavits notarized at the Embassy and Consulate General do not meet the Thai
requirement to certify the income of U.S. citizens."

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

Speculating yes but foundation yes.

 

There were more than the 3 embassies at the meeting - fact.

 

 

Where's your basis for that supposed fact? Some cite or source?

 

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's NOT what the Embassies have said, as in:

 

The Brits:

"The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfill the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals."

 

and

 

"Thai Immigration want us to verify your income, and we are unable to do this."

 

And from the U.S.:

"The self-sworn affidavits notarized at the Embassy and Consulate General do not meet the Thai
requirement to certify the income of U.S. citizens."

 

Yes, that's what the embassies said, but this was never confirmed by any announcement by Thai Immigration.   If what the embassies are telling us is true - and that is a big IF - then the appropriate response should have been that the embassies would continue to issue the income verification affidavits until informed in writing of a date certain by Thai immigration that they would no longer be accepted.  Otherwise all of this is hearsay.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, pookiki said:

Yes, that's what the embassies said, but this was never confirmed by any announcement by Thai Immigration.  

 

As you well know, there's been not a single public word about any of this from Immigration HQ since the day it started. And that's a big part of the problem.

 

It's never good when you have three embassies telling its citizens what Thai Immigration supposedly is or isn't going to do/accept.  Thai Immigration should be doing that.

 

[Spidey]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

That's NOT what the Embassies have said, as in:

 

The Brits:

"The British Embassy Bangkok is stopping the certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfill the Thai authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals."

 

and

 

"Thai Immigration want us to verify your income, and we are unable to do this."

 

And from the U.S.:

"The self-sworn affidavits notarized at the Embassy and Consulate General do not meet the Thai
requirement to certify the income of U.S. citizens."

 

The British Embassy already verified my income. I've long said that the BE have used this to further their own agenda re discontinuing the embassy letters. That decision was made by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in London as a result of a FCO audit, several months after the meeting. The decision was not made by the BE in Bangkok. - fact (by the BE's own admission).

 

It's quite possible that TI weren't happy with the sworn affidavits relied upon by the US and Australian embassies, as no verification took place in their processes. In which case there was no reason why those 2 embassies couldn't have modified their processes to include a requirement for documented proof of income from their citizens, as most other embassies do.

[lkv]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

It's never good when you have three embassies telling its citizens what Thai Immigration supposedly is or isn't going to do/accept.  Thai Immigration should be doing that.

 

I don't think they will make an announcement. I think it will be something like:

 

- Yes sure, if you can bring us proof of income we will give you an extension.

- But i cannot do that, the embassy doesn't give me that proof.

- Well, you have a second option: 800K.

 

Why issue any new directives, too much fuss. They can just leave the catch 22 running ????

 

Would not be the first catch 22 i see in Thailand.

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

I don't think they will make an announcement. I think it will be something like:

 

- Yes sure, if you can bring us proof of income we will give you an extension

- But i cannot do that, the embassy doesn't give me that proof.

- Well, you have a second option: 800K.

 

Why issue any new directives, too much fuss. They can just leave the catch 22 running ????

 

They aren't really obligated to do any more than that. 

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

As you well know, there's been not a single public word about any of this from Immigration HQ since the day it started. And that's a big part of the problem.

 

It's never good when you have three embassies telling its citizens what Thai Immigration supposedly is or isn't going to do/accept.  Thai Immigration should be doing that.

I don't think we will hear anything from Thai Imm- in their eyes nothing has changed- they are still accepting the letters and will do so into the immediate future-  Any other Nationality except US/UK/AUS citizens can still get the letter  next year. All the letters are still valid for 6 months from date of issue.

 

If the above continues- Thai imm will simply have to face  citizens from the 3 countries who did not  get their letters or new  applicants from the 3 countries who never applied before-  Thai Imm will then handle as needed- no letters-  show the money.  Have letters-  some will need to show proof- others won't.  I don't think Thai Imm sees any urgency. They're going to stick with the fact the Embassies caused this-not them- complaints- call your Embassy.

[Jingthing]

I agree. There obviously isn't any urgency for them.

However for some foreigners here there IS urgency to know what will be required and accepted so they can start planning for that NOW.

Or even in many cases to start selling up and PACKING.

A sad state of affairs indeed!

Edited November 10, 2018 by Jingthing

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

I don't think they will make an announcement. I think it will be something like:

 

- Yes sure, if you can bring us proof of income we will give you an extension

- But i cannot do that, the embassy doesn't give me that proof.

- Well, you have a second option: 800K.

 

Why issue any new directives, too much fuss. They can just leave the catch 22 running ????

 

If, in fact, this was the directive from the Thai Immigration to the three embassies involved, then they had a duty to represent our interests and demand that such decision be put in writing to include the date on which the letters would no longer be accepted.  Of course, the embassies could have written to Thai Immigration to record their understanding of the directive made by Thai Immigration at the meeting in May, which embassies were considered non-compliant, and the date on which income verification letters would no longer be accepted - and made public such a letter.

 

IF this is all true, then the embassies should have requested further discussions on how their citizens could properly verify a 65,000 baht/month income to Thai Immigration officials in the absence of an income verification letter.  None of this is rocket science friends, it just involves good negotiation skills, courtesy, and respect. 

 

In addition, as soon as the Thai Immigration indicated which countries were allegedly non-compliant and the reasons for non-compliance, those embassies should have held outreach meeting to discuss possible solutions with its constituents and considered all points of view along with 'worst' case scenario possibilities.

 

Our governments will not be responsive to our needs unless we demand that they be responsive.

[Spidey]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I agree. There obviously isn't any urgency for them.

However for some foreigners here there IS urgency to know what will be required and accepted so they can start planning for that NOW.

A sad state of affairs indeed!

We already know - 800k in a Thai bank account for 3 months before your extension date, oh and a bank letter confirming that.

[Spidey]

Just now, pookiki said:

If, in fact, this was the directive from the Thai Immigration to the three embassies involved

No, it was a directive from TI to all embassies.

[Kalasin Jo]

On 11/9/2018 at 7:37 AM, lkv said:

The ideal scenario for you would be, especially since you travel to Europe regularly, to apply for a multiple entry non O-A in your home country, and if stretched the right way, it would cover you for up to 2 years. Then repeat after 2 years and/or make those decisions to sell or not to sell later in time.

Yes, thanks, if the BE income letter I have does not do the job on my extension renewal in January I shall leave and try the O-A from my home country. If it works this time then next time. That I believe gives 90 days at a time in Thailand. On the 90th day can I leave and return either the same or the next day or do I have to be out for a set period of days?

 

I live about 3 hrs drive from Nong Kai and the Friendship Bridge but cannot remember if there is a border crossing there which lets foreigners in to Lao and on to Vientiane with appropriate stamps. The alternative would be Savanakhet ( about the same distance and time by car but probably not so much fun where I can also get this visa at the Thai Consulate. Or of course I could fly somewhere out of the country and take a break! 

[lkv]

11 minutes ago, pookiki said:

If, in fact, this was the directive from the Thai Immigration to the three embassies involved, then they had a duty to represent our interests and demand that such decision be put in writing to include the date on which the letters would no longer be accepted. 

 

Thai Immigration: We will only accept your letters if you do this and that (impossible requests, and Thai Immigration is fully aware.)

 

Embassy: But we cannot do that.

 

Thai Immigration: Ok, but just to let you know, we will still accept your letters that we know you cannot produce.

 

Welcome to Thailand!

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[malagateddy]

Yes, that's what the embassies said, but this was never confirmed by any announcement by Thai Immigration.   If what the embassies are telling us is true - and that is a big IF - then the appropriate response should have been that the embassies would continue to issue the income verification affidavits until informed in writing of a date certain by Thai immigration that they would no longer be accepted.  Otherwise all of this is hearsay.

Sadly imo..the Thai Imm Dept do not have to confirm anything as there really has been no change to their " rules " that I can see.
Re the UK Embassy..farming out lots of work..selling Wireless Road and moving to a glorified bed sit..no outreach meetings with British Expats..work it out.
A few months ago I wrote to the Consular Dept asking for an answer to 1 question..6 weeks later..no reply..I then emailed the same question to them..still awaiting a reply!!!
Imo..the UK Embassy is as useful as a chocolate teapot in the hades of hell.


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[fforest1]

All the banks and utilities seem to be outsourcing their work to 7-ll.....Maybe the embassys are going to outsource the income verification letter to 7-11 too..

[lkv]

20 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Yes, thanks, if the BE income letter I have does not do the job on my extension renewal in January I shall leave and try the O-A from my home country. If it works this time then next time. That I believe gives 90 days at a time in Thailand. On the 90th day can I leave and return either the same or the next day or do I have to be out for a set period of days?

The income letter as far as I understand is valid for 6 months, so if it's valid until January when the extension is due, then you're good for another 12 months starting January next year.

 

If its validity does not reach January next year, you should get a new letter now from the BE, until they stop issuing them. 

 

The last date for application will be December 12.

Edited November 10, 2018 by lkv

[Pattaya46]

I can't believe how so many members make "statements" on what Thai Immigration made or said, "statements" that are in fact just speculation based on the interpretation on what UK or US embassies wrote !

 

So I will quote the post below, posted this morning by @luckyluck, that - IMHO - is far more credible than the majority of recent posts in this thread... 

 

10 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Speculation :

 

T.I. to embassies : " We would appreciate you have a closer look at the incomes of your nationals when issuing a document about revenues ".

 

Embassies to T.I. : " We will do everything what is legally possible, if you eventually encounter a falsifier, please let us know, he will be sentenced accordingly "

 

American, Australian, British embassy : " We will not issue a document anymore ".