Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

When was the last time you walked in with 400~800k to open an account?

Yes; this is Thailand. Laws, rules, and regulations are fluid, and subject to interpretation. 

However, Nov 8, 2018, we walked into 3 different banks, 800,000 baht ready to transfer, and were turned away by all 3. Bangkok Bank was the only one that gave a "proof of residency" option and that will require certification from my embassy. 

I opened a BKK bank account with a retirement visa and a yellow book 13 years ago, 500 baht deposit.

[pookiki]

Earlier, I posted the Income Verification Affidavit being used by the Netherland's Embassy.  The format used in this letter would appear to be a reasonable solution to the current impasse between Thai Immigration and the US, UK, and Australian Embassies.

 

The US, UK, and Australian Embassies must look at the format of the income verification letters used by other Embassies who are not encountering any problems with Thai Immigration and implement a similar type letter.

 

To date, I have only seen the format used by the Netherlands.  But I think their income verification letter provides the best format to follow.  I would encourage other persons from countries who are not encountering any difficulties with obtaining their income verification letters to share the content of such letters so the US, UK, and Australian Embassies can implement a similar format.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, pookiki said:

Earlier, I posted the Income Verification Affidavit being used by the Netherland's Embassy.  The format used in this letter would appear to be a reasonable solution to the current impasse between Thai Immigration and the US, UK, and Australian Embassies.

 

The US, UK, and Australian Embassies must look at the format of the income verification letters used by other Embassies who are not encountering any problems with Thai Immigration and implement a similar type letter.

 

To date, I have only seen the format used by the Netherlands.  But I think their income verification letter provides the best format to follow.  I would encourage other persons from countries who are not encountering any difficulties with obtaining their income verification letters to share the content of such letters so the US, UK, and Australian Embassies can implement a similar format.

The main thing for the letter is to be positive and no caveat, it's entirely unnecessary anyway and acts as a red flag.

The German letter states 'from the documents seen.........certify that..........is receiving.....' works well, no caveat needed.

[Joe Mcseismic]

The letters aren't the problem. It's the actual, real verification and the Netherlands embassy still doesn't thoroughly verify the claimed income.

Sorry, but you're pissing in the wind.

[pookiki]

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

Which is exactly what the British Embassy have been doing for a number of years. Go figure (I can't).

Is it possible for you to post the content of the Income Verification Letter utilized by the British Embassy?

[Guest]

18 hours ago, JackThompson said:

We really don't know what happened - allegedly back in May of this year - and THAT is what we should be angry about vis-a-vis our embassies. 

 

But, in order to achieve your objective, I would not begin with the premise that our embassies threw us under the bus - as that action may have been driven by Thai-Immigration. 

 

What we should seek from our embassies first, is "<deleted> happened" - the whole story.  I suspect between May and the BE's announcement, there was some ongoing dialogue of some sort.  I want to know what that was - in detail.  After knowing that story, we can then move forward, knowing what attempted negotiation-points/tactics may have already been tried and failed. 

this is the message we should be talking about, our embassies have known for some time and we have been treated like mushrooms instead of being informed along the way. The Thai government can ask whatever they want but our embassies should be working for us and having discussions with their citizens living here as to the best way to comply with Thia immigration that has the best outcome for us.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The letters aren't the problem. It's the actual, real verification and the Netherlands embassy still doesn't thoroughly verify the claimed income.

Sorry, but you're pissing in the wind.

verify is a red herring, nothing can be verified not even your passport without a good deal of trouble, who would verify the passport office letter of verification ? It is what is acceptable that counts, R E A S O N A B L E certification from a trustworthy source like the embassy who say they trust the validity of the documents shown to them. True verification just isn't possible, if you don't live in BKK can you verify it exists ? only by travelling there.

[pookiki]

10 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

The letters aren't the problem. It's the actual, real verification and the Netherlands embassy still doesn't thoroughly verify the claimed income.

Sorry, but you're pissing in the wind.

If the Netherlands Embassy is using this letter and it is still being accepted by Thai Immigration, then why can't UK/US/Australia embassies follow suit in using the same format?  Of all the embassies in Bangkok -- only three have stopped the issuance of income verification letters?  What does this tell you?

[Guest]

On this point i live in KK but would be happy to be part of any delegation to the Australian embassy.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, jewell49 said:

On this point i live in KK but would be happy to be part of any delegation to the Australian embassy.

The last peasants revolt was in 1381

[Guest]

By far the biggest problem is Communicating with the Thai immigration office to find out if there is any other way to verify income that would be acceptable, but has anyone ever tried to have a dialogue with the IO ?.

[soalbundy]

Just now, jewell49 said:

By far the biggest problem is Communicating with the Thai immigration office to find out if there is any other way to verify income that would be acceptable, but has anyone ever tried to have a dialogue with the IO ?.

I would say that it is too early yet, TI is probably surprised that the 3 embassies have taken them literally and have thrown their dummies out of the pram, could be a case of 'up to you'

[Joe Mcseismic]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

verify is a red herring, nothing can be verified not even your passport without a good deal of trouble, who would verify the passport office letter of verification ? It is what is acceptable that counts, R E A S O N A B L E certification from a trustworthy source like the embassy who say they trust the validity of the documents shown to them. True verification just isn't possible, if you don't live in BKK can you verify it exists ? only by travelling there.

Send your post to Thai immigration.

[pookiki]

The income verification affidavit/letter being used by the Netherlands Embassy does not indicate that a person's income was 'verified' by the embassy but it does indicate an increased level of scrutiny in asking the person to produce documents that show monthly income from pensions and other sources.  These are exactly the same type of documents we all used when we applied for our original visas at various Thai Embassies around the world.

 

To me, the format of the Netherlands income verification affidavit/letter shows a genuine concern by the embassy to address Thai Immigration concerns -- and certainly a reasonable 'compromise' to a problem that should be explored by the UK, US and Australian Embassies who decided to completely revoke the issuance of the income verification affidavits.

 

I would sincerely implore the UK, US, and Australian Embassy officials to consider revising their income verification affidavits in line with other countries who are not experiencing any problems with Thai Immigration.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[Joe Mcseismic]

15 minutes ago, pookiki said:

If the Netherlands Embassy is using this letter and it is still being accepted by Thai Immigration, then why can't UK/US/Australia embassies follow suit in using the same format?  Of all the embassies in Bangkok -- only three have stopped the issuance of income verification letters?  What does this tell you?

Remember when it was only one embassy?

The others are are playing wait-and-see.

[soalbundy]

Just now, Joe Mcseismic said:

Send your post to Thai immigration.

They aren't the ones causing the trouble, none of the 3 embassies have said they had been ordered to stop issuing

[Spidey]

18 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Is it possible for you to post the content of the Income Verification Letter utilized by the British Embassy?

It's already been posted early on in one of the other threads. I don't have photoshop or know how to use it so couldn't delete personal information (name, passport number etc.). However, I can assure you that it is virtually identical to the Netherlands format except it has, in recent years, had the caveat added,

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether under UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law."

[Will27]

8 hours ago, Russell17au said:

How about we change a couple of things in your story.

How about I sign into my pension fund through my username and password and answer a security question that only I know. Then once inside my pension fund I request a certified secured income statement that is accepted as verified by my embassy or I can sign authorization to release my pension payment details to my embassy. Verification done by embassy.

I'm sorry, but if you think embassy staff are going to start phoning government departments (regardless of any authorization letter) and try to obtain income details of a 3rd person, you're in laa laa land.

 

I can see it now "Hi, this is Somchai calling from the Australian embassy in Bangkok, can you please let me know how

much Bill Bloggs is earning on his pension".

 

It will never happen.

[pookiki]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It's already been posted early on in one of the other threads. I don't have photoshop or know how to use it so couldn't delete personal information (name, passport number etc.). However, I can assure you that it is virtually identical to the Netherlands format except it has, in recent years, had the caveat added,

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether under UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law."

I found the worksheet that British citizens have to fill out to obtain the letter but I could not find the letter itself.  If you could refer me to the earlier post, it would be very helpful. Thanks!

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Remember when it was only one embassy?

The others are are playing wait-and-see.

It will be a long wait, the IO's rather like the embassy letter, nice and easy.

[Will27]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

They still pay tax and don't get any of the benefits. Takes a big burden off the taxpayer, in their home country.

I doubt most retiree's living in Thailand pay the required tax anyway.

I do agree that it takes some of the burden off the taxpayer by not accessing Medicare etc.

But no one forced them to go and live overseas.

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, Spidey said:

Come to Pattaya, I see several regularly.

Really? I reckon like most here, you've heard or read of 'several regularly'.

[howiem]

Thanks to poster Noise for the link that led to this page, which appears to be the latest requirements for retirees

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

I am quoting the content here.  According to the page info it is dated November 9, 2018.

 

"In the case of retirement:

Criteria for Consideration

The alien: (1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (2) Must be 50 years of age or over. (3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or (4) On the filing date, the applicant must have account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date; or (5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date. (6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following criteria: (a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000. (b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000.

Documents to be submitted

1. Application form 2. Copy of applicant’s passport 3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or 4. Account  deposited  (saving / fixed account) certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook 5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above"

 

 

 

[Spidey]

Just now, NanLaew said:

Really? I reckon like most here, you've heard or read of 'several regularly'.

I did say "seen", which means that I have personally seen them. Are you doubting my word?

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I doubt most retiree's living in Thailand pay the required tax anyway.

I do agree that it takes some of the burden off the taxpayer by not accessing Medicare etc.

But no one forced them to go and live overseas.

I pay the required tax on my income in the UK. As do most people, no real way round it.

 

No one forced me to live here, what's your point?

[Curt1591]

39 minutes ago, jewell49 said:

By far the biggest problem is Communicating with the Thai immigration office to find out if there is any other way to verify income that would be acceptable, but has anyone ever tried to have a dialogue with the IO ?.

My wife has spoken with them, twice. They seem as confused as anyone.

[Will27]

17 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I pay the required tax on my income in the UK. As do most people, no real way round it.

 

No one forced me to live here, what's your point?

Double post

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Will27

[Will27]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I pay the required tax on my income in the UK. As do most people, no real way round it.

 

No one forced me to live here, what's your point?

I'm not sure of the UK tax rules, but in Australia they have residents and non-residents

for taxation purposes. Australia's tax system is built on self assessment and I doubt most

Aussie retiree's declare themselves as non-residents.

 

My point is, you're saying you pay tax and get none of the benefits of living in the UK.

It was your choice to live in Thailand.

 

The bottom line is, that most countries don't give a rat's bum about people living

overseas.

 

[Spidey]

Just now, Will27 said:

My point is, you're saying you pay tax and get none of the benefits of living in the UK.

It was your choice to live in Thailand.

I think you missed my point which was, it's advantageous for a government to have it's citizens living abroad, i.e. Still pay tax and don't draw down on services provided. Not even from services provided by the embassy now.

[tgeezer]

Inflammatory, "I'm rich, I'm alright Jack" post. Too man of them on this thread already. I for one would be grateful if you'd desist.

Can’t argue with that, only those who cannot prove that they have the funds should be contributing to this thread, the rest of us should be reading the anecdotes out of interest.


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