EU proposes to send an army of observers to February election

[HalfLight]

4 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Predictably arrogant EU bureaucrats.  and they wonder why the UK wants to leave. 

 

Governments are the same everywhere. And it does rather seem that the UK might have changed it's mind about leaving, but the government there is determined not to ask again because to lose that vote would (without a doubt) bring it down.

 

If you hate Europe, then vote with your feet, or perhaps you already did that (in which case, well done), but don't spread the simplistic nonsense that EU bureaucrats are arrogant, that's just silly and demeans the role of Europe in the world.

[Pilotman]

30 minutes ago, robblok said:

Seems its not often that we agree upon something.. if I am reading it correctly like me you don't believe that an election here could be really fixed / faked. I always said it can't be done because of the number of people who would have to be involved. So something like that especially in the internet age will come out. 

 

That being said I also agree with your assertion that they use laws to stay in power.. not a good thing, but full out fixing of an ellection will not happen.

Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has,  It has always resulted in disorder, more corruption and eventual  violence.  There is just too much disparity between the urban well off and the majority of the population of rural poor. Democracy only works, and only then marginally, when social inequality is at its lowest. As that will not happen here in my life time, a combination of  MP's voted in and a selection of suitably connected and 'talented/qualified' appointees seems to be the best way forward. 

[HalfLight]

1 hour ago, shaurene said:

The bloody EU sending 200-400. Wasting members money. They will be officials, flying 1st class, the best hotels, and a good amount of spending money.

No wonder we and others want to get out.

 

If you want to leave then leave. Just for goodness sake stop talking about it and do it.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has,  It has always resulted in disorder, more corruption and eventual  violence.  There is just too much disparity between the urban well off and the majority of the population of rural poor. Democracy only works, and only then marginally, when social inequality is at its lowest. As that will not happen here in my life time, a combination of  MP's voted in and a selection of suitably connected and 'talented/qualified' appointees seems to be the best way forward. 

While i might agree that democracy has a hard time working here but when you appoint people and certainly here it is almost never the qualified or talented that get to work but the connected however stupid they are.  Same way for democracy  here in Thailand.. its about connected not quality. 

[Pilotman]

33 minutes ago, Becker said:

 

I see the Brexiteers are out in full force this morning venting their hatred for the EU even in such a innocent context as observing an election. Like the EU being allowed to send election observers could be anything but beneficial. Sad.

 

PS. Is it me or am I not alone in seeing very clear similarities between Brexiters and base Trump supporters?

The EU is undemocratic itself.  The President of the Commission is not elected by common vote, neither is the Commission.  The Parliament is merely a rubber stamping machine.  They ride rough shod over democratically  elected national governments, and they have the audacity to lecturer others and impose observers on Thailand's election.  It would be unbelievable arrogance if it wasn't normal EU behaviour, process and procedure.  The UK is well out of it.  

[HalfLight]

20 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has,  It has always resulted in disorder, more corruption and eventual  violence.  There is just too much disparity between the urban well off and the majority of the population of rural poor. Democracy only works, and only then marginally, when social inequality is at its lowest. As that will not happen here in my life time, a combination of  MP's voted in and a selection of suitably connected and 'talented/qualified' appointees seems to be the best way forward. 

 

In my opinion, the travails of democracy in Thailand are not due to the disparity between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' - that's a consequence of the travails of democracy, not the cause.

 

Also in my opinion, the root cause is a developing society (which is still primitive) and an under-educated population - same as in most other developing nations, including most in Africa, South America and Asia - hence the recurrent and similar problems they have as well.

 

A kleptocracy will always steal, that's what Thailand has and that's what Thais do, in common with many other primitive social orders, so we shouldn't be surprised that lying, cheating and stealing are a part of the character of Thais, it's a part of their culture. They'll grow out of it one day, but that won't be today - or tomorrow.

 

In trying to understand the reasons for something

Edited November 9, 2018 by HalfLight

[HalfLight]

2 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

The EU is undemocratic itself.  The President of the Commission is not elected by common vote, neither is the Commission.  The Parliament is merely a rubber stamping machine.  They ride rough shod over democratically  elected national governments, and they have the audacity to lecturer others and impose observers on Thailand's election.  It would be unbelievable arrogance if it wasn't normal EU behaviour, process and procedure.  The UK is well out of it.  

 

Then be happy that the UK is on it's bike. Walk walk not talk talk...

[rkidlad]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has,  It has always resulted in disorder, more corruption and eventual  violence.  There is just too much disparity between the urban well off and the majority of the population of rural poor. Democracy only works, and only then marginally, when social inequality is at its lowest. As that will not happen here in my life time, a combination of  MP's voted in and a selection of suitably connected and 'talented/qualified' appointees seems to be the best way forward. 

Absolute rubbish. It doesn't work because the elites won't allow it to. They've had over 4 years of absolute power to enable the correct checks and balances to stop any future democratically elected government from taking the p***. They haven't done that because they don't want these same rules to apply to themselves.

 

Thais are human beings like the rest of us. They're new to all of this but they're gonna have to learn. Either that or they'll just have more people in power who don't even pretend to do anything for them. And that will just lead to more trouble. 

 

 

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't work here, it never has,  It has always resulted in disorder, more corruption and eventual  violence.  There is just too much disparity between the urban well off and the majority of the population of rural poor. Democracy only works, and only then marginally, when social inequality is at its lowest. As that will not happen here in my life time, a combination of  MP's voted in and a selection of suitably connected and 'talented/qualified' appointees seems to be the best way forward. 

Democracy, as practiced in most western countries, has never been tried here.  Evidence of this lies in the fact that only one elected PM has been allowed to finish his term in elected office.  However during this one PM's (Thaksin's) term, corruption declined as measured by the Transparency International Corruption Perception.

 

Blaming democracy for the violence of the military and anti-democrats is obscene.  Expecting military rule on behalf of the elites to reduce social inequality is idiotic.

[Brunolem]

33 minutes ago, Becker said:

 

PS. Is it me or am I not alone in seeing very clear similarities between Brexiters and base Trump supporters?

Similarities?

Are the Brexiters also called "deplorables"?

 

The fact is that the EU is not really in a position to teach how elections should be held, when it is itself unable to accept the results of the votes cast in its own backyard!

 

Remember the number of referenda done twice in many EU countries, because the results of the first referendum didn't please the Brussels' politburo?

 

Even now, there is still strong pressure to redo the Brexit referendum!

 

If Thailand really wants democratic observers, bring them from Bhutan!

 

[Odysseus123]

4 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

 

If you want to leave then leave. Just for goodness sake stop talking about it and do it.

Thanks.. it would certainly be a blessing for the rest of humankind if they did stop talking.

 

Meanwhile back in Thailand...the sole country in the universe where democracy really truly works.-just ask any ol' escapee from the thousand year shemozzle (1933-1945)

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Democracy, as practiced in most western countries, has never been tried here.  Evidence of this lies in the fact that only one elected PM has been allowed to finish his term in elected office.  However during this one PM's (Thaksin's) term, corruption declined as measured by the Transparency International Corruption Perception.

 

Blaming democracy for the violence of the military and anti-democrats is obscene.  Expecting military rule on behalf of the elites to reduce social inequality is idiotic.

Most of what you say is nonsense mate. Of course one person one vote, resulting in an elected parliament, has been used here before, many times since the 1940s,  read your history books. The most stable this country has ever been is under the various Military governments, as it is now.  I don't see violence on the streets, as we saw a few years ago,  and before that, when a democratically elected PM was in place.  I suggest you get your facts right before you start slinging insults around. 

[robertson468]

If the EU can spare that many staff to come to Thailand to observe the elections, one has to wonder how many "spare bods" are loafing around the EU and getting paid for doing very little?  Oh, and who the hell do the EU think they are coming to make judgement on another Countries elections that is not even in their trading block, let alone a member of the EU!  Hello EU!  It's a good bye from the UK, soon to be a good bye from Italy and very likely a good by from Poland! 

[jayboy]

55 minutes ago, robblok said:

Seems its not often that we agree upon something.. if I am reading it correctly like me you don't believe that an election here could be really fixed / faked. I always said it can't be done because of the number of people who would have to be involved. So something like that especially in the internet age will come out. 

 

That being said I also agree with your assertion that they use laws to stay in power.. not a good thing, but full out fixing of an ellection will not happen.

Yes, that is my contention. An election cannot be fixed in Thailand by which I mean that part which happens on Election Day. An election can, of course, be fixed by other long-term means and that given the unchanging loyalties of the North and North East has been what the Junta (and its backers) have been steadily working for since the illegal seizure of power. In that sense, there is no possible way the forthcoming election will be fair.

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Most of what you say is nonsense mate. Of course one person one vote, resulting in an elected parliament, has been used here before, many times since the 1940s,  read your history books. The most stable this country has ever been is under the various Military governments, as it is now.  I don't see violence on the streets, as we saw a few years ago,  and before that, when a democratically elected PM was in place.  I suggest you get your facts right before you start slinging insults around. 

Are you arguing that an election followed by a coup is how democracy works in most countries? 

 

Spain was stable under fascist Franco, North Korea is stable under Kim.  Does that make these systems preferable to democracy?

 

You neglected to address my point about military rule on behalf of the elites won't correct social inequity.

[Brunolem]

6 minutes ago, rkidlad said:

Absolute rubbish. It doesn't work because the elites won't allow it to. 

 

Thais are human beings like the rest of us. They're new to all of this but they're gonna have to learn. 

 

 

Yes!

 

Like in many other countries, starting with the US, the elected representatives are not there for political reasons, but first and foremost to protect the interests of those who have the wealth and the real power.

 

The objective is always to preserve the status quo.

 

In the US, there is no risk, because Coca Democrats and Pepsi Republicans are both paid and bought by the same entities.

 

But here in Thailand where the system was not so carefully locked, there was enough space for a free electron like Thaksin to find his way through and wreak havoc, sending the elites into hyperventilation.

 

Such a horrific thing should never be allowed to happen again!

 

[HalfLight]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Yes, that is my contention. An election cannot be fixed in Thailand by which I mean that part which happens on Election Day. An election can, of course, be fixed by other long-term means and that given the unchanging loyalties of the North and North East has been what the Junta (and its backers) have been steadily working for since the illegal seizure of power. In that sense, there is no possible way the forthcoming election will be fair.

 

 

It won't be fair, and thegovernment has no interest in making it fair. The job of this government is merely to create the illusion of it being fair so the foreigners, who don't and can't understand 'Thainess' will carry on buying Thai shrimps and sending un-needed military aid to line a few generals' pockets.

 

Same as normal, no point in getting all serious about it, it's the way the Thai culture has been guided for decades.

[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Yes!

 

Like in many other countries, starting with the US, the elected representatives are not there for political reasons, but first and foremost to protect the interests of those who have the wealth and the real power.

 

The objective is always to preserve the status quo.

 

In the US, there is no risk, because Coca Democrats and Pepsi Republicans are both paid and bought by the same entities.

 

But here in Thailand where the system was not so carefully locked, there was enough space for a free electron like Thaksin to find his way through and wreak havoc, sending the elites into hyperventilation.

 

Such a horrific thing should never be allowed to happen again!

 

Goodness me...

[yuiop]

EU fuc* o** you're the most anti-democratic system in the western world.

[HalfLight]

1 minute ago, yuiop said:

EU fuc* o** you're the most anti-democratic system in the western world.

 

*yawn*

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, HalfLight said:

 

 

It won't be fair, and thegovernment has no interest in making it fair. The job of this government is merely to create the illusion of it being fair so the foreigners, who don't and can't understand 'Thainess' will carry on buying Thai shrimps and sending un-needed military aid to line a few generals' pockets.

 

Same as normal, no point in getting all serious about it, it's the way the Thai culture has been guided for decades.

Whilst I agree with most of your points I would take issue with the idea that the incumbent gov't has any desire "to make it seem fair" especially to outsiders.They couldn't care less about their opinions,have very little knowledge of the rest of the world and have absolutely no concerns about  the opinions of foreigners "in country".

 

That is one gallery that they do not need to play to.

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Yes, that is my contention. An election cannot be fixed in Thailand by which I mean that part which happens on Election Day. An election can, of course, be fixed by other long-term means and that given the unchanging loyalties of the North and North East has been what the Junta (and its backers) have been steadily working for since the illegal seizure of power. In that sense, there is no possible way the forthcoming election will be fair.

The election will be fair in as I don't think there will be real cheating just like you

2 can keep a secret if one is dead.. fixing an election has too many people involved it would come out.

 

The election is of course not completely fair as the other parties had far less time to prepare for voting and of course there are the long term means. So I agree there too and don't see it as a good thing of course.

 

That said I keep saying the same thing, as long as so much money can be made to be in government there will be fighting and violence to be in power and it will never stop. The only way out is curbing the corruption and making it less profitable to be in power. Guess what NONE of the old parties junta included has any intention to see that happen. So they are all part of the problem. I see only one way out.. new parties that are not corrupt. But I wont hold my breath. I think we are in for a long wait.

 

 

[rkidlad]

11 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Yes!

 

Like in many other countries, starting with the US, the elected representatives are not there for political reasons, but first and foremost to protect the interests of those who have the wealth and the real power.

 

The objective is always to preserve the status quo.

 

In the US, there is no risk, because Coca Democrats and Pepsi Republicans are both paid and bought by the same entities.

 

But here in Thailand where the system was not so carefully locked, there was enough space for a free electron like Thaksin to find his way through and wreak havoc, sending the elites into hyperventilation.

 

Such a horrific thing should never be allowed to happen again!

 

Gaddafi? Is that you? I thought you were dead. 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Whilst I agree with most of your points I would take issue with the idea that the incumbent gov't has any desire "to make it seem fair" especially to outsiders.They couldn't care less about their opinions,have very little knowledge of the rest of the world and have absolutely no concerns about  the opinions of foreigners "in country".

 

That is one gallery that they do not need to play to.

I think your mistaken.. foreign opinion matters.. especially if it hurts trade. But now they have China and China does not care about anything.

[HHTel]

19 hours ago, The traveler said:

The EU are a bunch of unelected bureaucrats,

A much bandied about phrase that has also been used in the press.  However it's not true (apart from civil servants who number one tenth of those in the UK).  Everyone in the EU commission are elected.

[HalfLight]

5 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Whilst I agree with most of your points I would take issue with the idea that the incumbent gov't has any desire "to make it seem fair" especially to outsiders.They couldn't care less about their opinions,have very little knowledge of the rest of the world and have absolutely no concerns about  the opinions of foreigners "in country".

 

That is one gallery that they do not need to play to.

 

We differ but that's OK, it's the essence of discussion. Discussion only has one use; to influence.

[AGareth2]

wasted trip/offer

there is no election in Feb

the date is purely tentative

[Odysseus123]

Just now, HHTel said:

A much bandied about phrase that has also been used in the press.  However it's not true (apart from civil servants who number one tenth of those in the UK).  Everyone in the EU commission are elected.

Agreed..but the whole attack is nowt but a derailment of an interesting topic in the true Thai tradition of Denial,Projection and Displacement..

 

Much more interesting is the idea that any political opinion offered up by an expat in Thailand (excepting those who have achieved citizenship) is ,by its very nature,null and void and totally neutered.

 

And therefore of no concern to  the gov't or,indeed,anyone else.

[Odysseus123]

6 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

 

We differ but that's OK, it's the essence of discussion. Discussion only has one use; to influence.

I totally agree.

 

Differing points of view indicate 'pluralism'-that is that the world does indeed consist of a multiplicity of views.Western democracy has this and Thailand does not.

 

Neither does its near neighbours.

[8OA8]

19 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Observers from neighboring countries (Laos, Cambodia, Burma and maybe the Philippines) would do fine, being accustomed to managing fair elections...

 

Meanwhile, the pompous a...s of the Brussels Politiburo should better focus on their own problems...it's not as if they had nothing to deal with!

 

Obviously, one can imagine their strong motivation for visiting tropical Thailand in winter, at taxpayers' expense...

They're probably thinking along the lines of we've a one off bonus of £39 billion coming into the EU coffers soon and it's probably not been allocated to any particular area yet, so why not take the tropical trip, and if the £39 billion doesn't materialise because of some fools back in the HQ it's really not a big deal as they can add it onto Ireland's bill the following year 

Edited November 9, 2018 by 8OA8
Grammar