Thailand Demands Telecom, Satellites Back From Singapore

[MiG16]

cracks in suvannabhum? shut it down? discredit who? more repair work? more contracts? who controls the decisions who the contracts go to?

re-opening of DonMuang? who owns the land to DonMuang?

ermmm, Im going back to watch football.

BULL'S EYE !!!

They know that they cannot afford to offend some guys who are more powerful, that's why they would prefer to go back for the football game.

actually its just ME going back to watch my football game. besides....I have no qualms in offending the powers-that-be, especially if I do not agree with the way things are done. infact I do it all the time...gets me in trouble every now and then.....maybe will get me in big trouble one day who knows....but you can not bring about change by sitting idly by and watch the world move.

however, since this is a public forum where the admins are required to operate under the requirements of rules imposed by the CNS and the current military installed body.....I dont feel it is appropriate to express my strong views and put the public forum at risk of being monitored or even shut down

[Sing_Sling]

I think the difference here is really in who wishes to believe the rhetoric of the Junta and who applies simple logic and refers back to international law.

Thaigoon, the name speaks for itself I guess, if you would stop the anti-Singapore vitriole for a minute and apply the Junta's rationale on a microeconomic scale to you personally, you might see the light of how wrong this position is.

[seagull]

I think the difference here is really in who wishes to believe the rhetoric of the Junta and who applies simple logic and refers back to international law.

Thaigoon, the name speaks for itself I guess, if you would stop the anti-Singapore vitriole for a minute and apply the Junta's rationale on a microeconomic scale to you personally, you might see the light of how wrong this position is.

Well, thaigoon, where are you? I am waitinnnnnngg.

[bino]

If the government wants to reclaim control of the satellites and other business aspects, why don't they push the original "Kularb Kaew" issue of foreign companies owning a max of 49% / nominee shareholders et al? If Singapore owned less than a controlling share of these assets, wouldn't the problem be solved?

This would fit within the framework of precedented Thai laws, and should not affect investor confidence as drastically as "nationalizing or re-patriating assets".

[nick2k]

hey! laws are suppose to be applied fairly to all people in the country. ...so, let me repeat. what about the DTAC/Ucom situation where telenor of norway has 70% ownership? why are you guys all trying to ignore this question?

..could it be - because this is sonthi's company? the guy who has the television program denouncing all the evil that thaksin has committed? the guy who lead the PAD?

talk about evil.

Yeah, it's ironic that the former leader of the People Alliance for Democracy is now a mouthpiece for an unelected government appointed by the junta...

Regarding the Telenor argument, I think the key issue with Shincorp is the satellites they own, and which are used by the Thai military. Telenor does not control satellites in the same direct way, so they are of little concern to the generals.

As for taking back the satellites for national security: How many armies in the world actually rely on the services of a private telecommunication company for their operations? For security's sake, it would be much better to set up a separate satellite entirely controlled by the army. I believe this is what serious armies do, from the USA to Europe and China.

interesting..

[Upcountry]

Man, what an active thread.

I can't resist saying, how silly this all is.

What Toxin did was very bad, but it was "legal" at the time, however contrived by his own hand.

If Thailand wants the assets back, they must buy them back, preferably with Toxin's cash, if they can find it.

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

[sriracha john]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

[thedude]

it is interesting to me why the Siam Commercial Bank had no problem with the deal and the prospect of 'losing national assets' never seemed to bother them while they acted as financial advisors to temasek on the deal, no doubt temasek must have relied on their opinion on the necessary financial structure.

was the Siam Commercial Bank complicit, negligent, or plain ignorant?

wonder why the Siam Commercial Bank was never put to task by the powers that be over their role in this 'scandal'.

[ThaiGoon]

I think the difference here is really in who wishes to believe the rhetoric of the Junta and who applies simple logic and refers back to international law.

Thaigoon, the name speaks for itself I guess, if you would stop the anti-Singapore vitriole for a minute and apply the Junta's rationale on a microeconomic scale to you personally, you might see the light of how wrong this position is.

Yeah, a simple logic and some common sense should have been enough for someone to realize and admit that Singapore did work a shady deal. To keep denying otherwise just because you are married to (or just dated) a Singaporean is rather sad and pathetic.

And international law has got nothing to do with this. I'm sure the Thai government will do the right thing when they buy back Shin corp from Temasek. Gen. Sondhi made a mistake with the rhetoric. He shouldn't have used it, but it's the right thing for him and the government to reclaim control of the company.

As for those who are still harping on about the different treatmeants that Telenor and Temasek get, please register it in your brains that DTAC doesn't own satellites but Shin Corp does. That's the difference.

Edited February 18, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

Exactly.

[John1012]

Has anyone determined that according to international law the sale of the company was illegal, (Thai law is irrelavent, most of it is crap anyway, made by the elite for the elite, so that they can remain in power).

When that has been determined then perhaps the Thai government can recover the assets, otherwise any recovery appart from actually purchasing back from the buyer would be illegal.

Nations should not trade with a country that will not uphold the rule of law.

I wish the first world nations would apply the same rules to Thai citizens as the Thai government applies to their citizens, re land & company ownership. I feel a second class citizen, frightened to speak out, in case my visa is revoked and I have to leave. LOS (land of scams) TIT (this is twaddle).

Unfortunately I am one of the many who have committed to live in Thailand with my loved one ( & dogs), so I just have to put up with this rubbish. It pains me to see the corruption that seems to be inherant , not universally, there are many Thais that are 100% honest, but most of them are not in public office or rich. The more I see the more frustrated I get. The majority of people have no respect for their environment, rubbish thrown anywhere.

[LaoPo]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

Right....but what was the outcome ?

Did they ever get back the 'assumed' fortune of (up to) 100 Billion US$ from Marcos (heirs) and the fortune of Suharto ?

Don't think so.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

Right....but what was the outcome ?

Did they ever get back the 'assumed' fortune of (up to) 100 Billion US$ from Marcos (heirs) and the fortune of Suharto ?

Don't think so.

LaoPo

Marcos:

I did some searching about Marcos but there seems to be no evidence that the Goverment of the Philippines receive any substantial money from the Marcos family so far.

Suharto:

" Investigations of wealth

In May 1999, a Time Asia estimated Suharto's family fortune at US$15 billion in cash, shares, corporate assets, real estate, jewelery and fine art. Of this, US$9 billion is reported to have been deposited in an Austrian bank. The family is said to control about 36,000 km² of real estate in Indonesia, including 100,000 m² of prime office space in Jakarta and nearly 40 percent of the land in East Timor. Over US$73 billion is said to have passed through the family's hands during Suharto's 32-year rule.

On May 29, 2000, Suharto was placed under house arrest when Indonesian authorities began to investigate the corruption during his regime. In July, it was announced that he was to be accused of embezzling US$571 million of government donations to one of a number of foundations under his control and then using the money to finance family investments. But in September court-appointed doctors announced that he could not stand trial because of his declining health. State prosecutors tried again in 2002 but then doctors cited an unspecified brain disease.

According to Transparency International, Suharto embezzled more money than any other world leader in history with the estimated US $15–35 billion embezzlement during his 32 years rule.[28] "

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto#Inves...tions_of_wealth

Thaksin:

Like most of us I am very curious where the whole 'chasing' for/at Thaksin (and his fortune) will ever end. But at the moment he will remain a 'Far Eastern' baby in comparison the the former two 'despotes'.

Personally, I think in the end it will be an 'acceptable' sum -to be paid by Thaksin & family-; acceptable to the Government, people and T's family.

There must be a lot of high ranked people, including the present 'rulers', fearing for the worst if the sh_it pitch opens up totally.

Corruption is everywhere...

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

Right....but what was the outcome ?

Did they ever get back the 'assumed' fortune of (up to) 100 Billion US$ from Marcos (heirs) and the fortune of Suharto ?

Don't think so.

LaoPo

True, the recovery from Marcos was a fraction of what he stole and Suharto's charges were eventually dropped. That's the problem with Thaksin and his fellow Southeast Asian dictators, they bury their monies deep and with their entrenched cohorts make it extremely difficult to track down. Hopefully, with Thaksin, we'll see a new era in the ability of countries to reacquisition the corrupted gains from their deposed despots.

The last thing we want to see with Thaksin is a continuation of the examples of Marcos and Suharto of having their disgusting off-spring continue on with their ill-gotten gains.

Edited February 18, 2007 by sriracha john

[LaoPo]

I'm appalled at how slow the process of prosecution has been. Curiouser and curiouser,

Shouldn't be... These things take time with lots of historical precedents. The first corruption charges against Marcos weren't filed for a full year after he left office... and continued for years afterwards. Kenneth Lay, the Wall St. corruption case took 2 years to come to court. Suharto... the corrupt Indonesian leader... took 6 years.

Right....but what was the outcome ?

Did they ever get back the 'assumed' fortune of (up to) 100 Billion US$ from Marcos (heirs) and the fortune of Suharto ?

Don't think so.

LaoPo

True, the recovery from Marcos was a fraction of what he stole and Suharto's charges were eventually dropped. That's the problem with Thaksin and his fellow Southeast Asian dictators, they bury their monies deep and with their entrenched cohorts make it extremely difficult to track down. Hopefully, with Thaksin, we'll see a new era in the ability of countries to reacquisition the corrupted gains from their deposed despots.

The last thing we want to see with Thaksin is a continuation of the examples of Marcos and Suharto of having their disgusting off-spring continue on with their ill-gotten gains.

Oh, but I agree with you.

The problems in Thailand however (like in the Philippines & Indonesia) are that the corruption is 'seeded' so deep into the upper class and their families that the eventual outcome -in the end- will not be what everyone is expecting or hoping.

'We' are just Farang and we probably have no idea at all how many tentacles the octopus T. has or had.

And the present rulers know that better than we do....

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

Hopefully... 2007 will be different than the 1980's and 1990's.... and we'll see an end to corrupt leaders enjoying the spoils of their crimes.

Edited February 18, 2007 by sriracha john

[LaoPo]

Hopefully... 2007 will be different than the 1980's and 1990's.... and we'll see an end to corrupt leaders enjoying the spoils of their crimes.

With all respect SJ, 'we' will see not see that end in our lifetime....

have a look at this list:

http://arthuredelstein.org/worlddictators/

ps: I didn't make that list!

edit:

this is also an interesting list:

excerpt:

" A score of 5.0 is the number Transparency International considers the borderline figure distinguishing countries that do and do not have a serious corruption problem "

Thailand is on a shared 63rd position with a scale of 3.6; meaning: it's -still- a very corrupt country.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

further edit:

This is also a shocking article:

" How Did Suharto Steal $35 Billion? "

http://www.slate.com/id/2097858/

LaoPo

Edited February 19, 2007 by LaoPo

[Scott]

Now, now children, you must play nicely or we won't let you play in the sand box anymore!

What happened to that saying "We care, we share." They don't want to share anymore?

Can you imagine the frustration of trying to listen in on all the mobile phone conversations going on in Thailand. I mean really, I wonder what "secrets" we'll find out.

[Sing_Sling]

Hey, Thaigoon . . . check out the top 5 placements . . . any comments?!

[lukamar]

With all respect SJ, 'we' will see not see that end in our lifetime....[/color=#0000FF]

You could add to your line... "No matter how long we, our children or grand children happen live." Has anyone ever asked themselves how these squeaky clean military types amassed such wealth. My father in law just retired from a good post in the military and he's sure didn't manage to save 500 some odd million Baht and have some swanky summer house on a big plot of land like the PM, from his military income.

There is not one single Thai that has not accepted some tea money or given it at some point in their life and I'm including the current leaders in that as well. If they tell you otherwise they are outright telling an ill-truth.

[ThaiGoon]

Hey, Thaigoon . . . check out the top 5 placements . . . any comments?!

Yeah, genius, that absolutely proves nothing regarding this deal. And in case you still have no freaking clue, I don't personally dislike Singapore. I have several Singaporeans as friends. But on this particular issue, I'm with the Thai government. They are doing the right thing albeit with wrong rhetoric.

And get someone who can read Thai to translate this for you, so you might have some clue about the deal:

http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/2007/02/19/W...php?newsid=5346

[hammered]

Hopefully... 2007 will be different than the 1980's and 1990's.... and we'll see an end to corrupt leaders enjoying the spoils of their crimes.

With all respect SJ, 'we' will see not see that end in our lifetime....

have a look at this list:

http://arthuredelstein.org/worlddictators/

ps: I didn't make that list!

edit:

this is also an interesting list:

excerpt:

" A score of 5.0 is the number Transparency International considers the borderline figure distinguishing countries that do and do not have a serious corruption problem "

Thailand is on a shared 63rd position with a scale of 3.6; meaning: it's -still- a very corrupt country.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

further edit:

This is also a shocking article:

" How Did Suharto Steal $35 Billion? "

http://www.slate.com/id/2097858/

LaoPo

The arthur edelstein site uses freedom house to judge what a dictator is. Freedom house although initially set up against the Nazis has more recently been heavily criticized for being a tool of the neo-conservative movement. It is heavily funded by the US administration and has also drawn criticism to bending for US policy. When exposed by the Financial Times (not exactly a left wing organ) as having received funding from the US government to carry out clandestine operations in Iran Freedom House was forced to admit to this even after a denial by Peter Ackerman.

Anyway the point is be careful with these lists and point scores on freedom and freedom indices. Always look at who funds them and why, which is the same rule in evaluting any form of survey.

[sriracha john]

There is not one single Thai that has not accepted some tea money or given it at some point in their life

How much has your Thai family accepted or given?

Edited February 19, 2007 by sriracha john

[LomSak27]

"Hopefully... 2007 will be different than the 1980's and 1990's.... and we'll see an end to corrupt leaders enjoying the spoils of their crimes."

Are we have a serious discussion or just posting laugh lines? As for my three cents - Getting rid of Marcos and prosecuting sure cleaned up the Philippines didn't it?! but LP sure had a thought:

"The problems in Thailand however (like in the Philippines & Indonesia) are that the corruption is 'seeded' so deep into the upper class and their families that the eventual outcome -in the end- will not be what everyone is expecting or hoping."

Thank you for some perception and understanding!

[ThaiGoon]

There is not one single Thai that has not accepted some tea money or given it at some point in their life

How much has your Thai family accepted or given?

[hammered]

With all respect SJ, 'we' will see not see that end in our lifetime....[/color=#0000FF]

You could add to your line... "No matter how long we, our children or grand children happen live." Has anyone ever asked themselves how these squeaky clean military types amassed such wealth. My father in law just retired from a good post in the military and he's sure didn't manage to save 500 some odd million Baht and have some swanky summer house on a big plot of land like the PM, from his military income.

There is not one single Thai that has not accepted some tea money or given it at some point in their life and I'm including the current leaders in that as well. If they tell you otherwise they are outright telling an ill-truth.

Hi Luk

My wife hasnt. The one time the police stopped us for a driving offence she insisted on getting the paperwork and heading to the station to pay the fine. Ditto when she was caught on her motorcycle. When we registered our marriage she also refused a direct request for a "translation fee". I cant speak for others but she feels that if you pay the bribe money you cannot criticise corruption because you become part of it. It is interesting that when she was young and from an all female family that were actually the poorest in her village the family would not accept gifts from politicians either or anyone else for that matter. Funnily enough she did OK in the education stakes, and has retained her principals. I am sure there must be others.

[sriracha john]

"Hopefully... 2007 will be different than the 1980's and 1990's.... and we'll see an end to corrupt leaders enjoying the spoils of their crimes."

Are we have a serious discussion or just posting laugh lines? As for my three cents - Getting rid of Marcos and prosecuting sure cleaned up the Philippines didn't it?! but LP sure had a thought:

"The problems in Thailand however (like in the Philippines & Indonesia) are that the corruption is 'seeded' so deep into the upper class and their families that the eventual outcome -in the end- will not be what everyone is expecting or hoping."

Thank you for some perception and understanding!

Point being it's time to start now. What's the alternative? Throw up one's hands and resign oneself that corruption will continue to infinity?

If it takes a generation to improve and change the populace's mindset... two generations... three... the longer nothing is done, the longer people are resigned to putting up with it, the longer people say "it's always going to be that way," then the longer nothing improves.

Starting with Thaksin would be a good place to start.

Edited February 19, 2007 by sriracha john

[Gianni77]

bring taksin back. if he was suck a bad man he would have curtianpeople assiniated long before he was kicked out. he could even have it done now.

he was the clsed thing to a decoratic leader that Thailand, Asia had.

he made a little on the side. not like asian govments to me corrup now is it.

sounds to me there is something personal behinde the scenes.

maybe he didn't pay the right people and this is what happened. well this is that of the opinum of a thai taxi driver in BBk

The Thai version of HBO's "Taxi Cab conffessions"... keep it up dude, we need fresh opinions. We know Thaksin was corrupt, we know the next goverment will be; corruption is not a thai product, is not OTOP... just better developed here.

We'll think (or at least hope) a war is just a stupid thought... I just got a BB gun... I don't think I can help Thailand a lot in case of war...

Good day for all of u,

Gianni

[lukamar]

Point being it's time to start now. What's the alternative? Throw up one's hands and resign oneself that corruption will continue to infinity?

If it takes a generation to improve and change the populace's mindset... two generations... three... the longer nothing is done, the longer people are resigned to putting up with it, the longer people say "it's always going to be that way," then the longer nothing improves.

Starting with Thaksin would be a good place to start.

For once I agree with you John they have to start somewhere but wouldn't it be a lot easier to start with the duck ponds outside Chiang Mai U where it's openly visible on a daily basis and I'm sure lots of other places. Although you would like to see corruption charges pinned on TS and others in that regime, it's probably not going to happen. If they pull one card out of the house of cards the whole thing may fall down and there is no telling where it may lead and the people now in power are not going to risk some run away train, that may take them with it without warning. The problem is both bottom up and top down. Kids learn from an early age that you can pay off the cop or the motor vehicle inspector and it just starts there. Maybe some kind of educating the kids early would work but you have to have an standard education system first, that's also not going to happen overnight. Whatever happens it's Thailand and in typical Thai style they will figure out a work around and it will be business as usual in short order, and it will matter little who is in power or what laws are in place. That's the sad reality that's Thailand.

Congratulations hammered on finding the only non corruptible person in the country.. That still leaves about 64 million that are between her and totally corrupt.

[sriracha john]

Point being it's time to start now. What's the alternative? Throw up one's hands and resign oneself that corruption will continue to infinity?

If it takes a generation to improve and change the populace's mindset... two generations... three... the longer nothing is done, the longer people are resigned to putting up with it, the longer people say "it's always going to be that way," then the longer nothing improves.

Starting with Thaksin would be a good place to start.

For once I agree with you John they have to start somewhere but wouldn't it be a lot easier to start with the duck ponds outside Chiang Mai U where it's openly visible on a daily basis and I'm sure lots of other places. Although you would like to see corruption charges pinned on TS and others in that regime, it's probably not going to happen. If they pull one card out of the house of cards the whole thing may fall down and there is no telling where it may lead and the people now in power are not going to risk some run away train, that may take them with it without warning. The problem is both bottom up and top down. Kids learn from an early age that you can pay off the cop or the motor vehicle inspector and it just starts there. Maybe some kind of educating the kids early would work but you have to have an standard education system first, that's also not going to happen overnight. Whatever happens it's Thailand and in typical Thai style they will figure out a work around and it will be business as usual in short order, and it will matter little who is in power or what laws are in place. That's the sad reality that's Thailand.

What happens to that reality if, for example, Thaksin is handed a 30 year sentence? I'm not so quick to give up on the current proceedings. Already his wife and brother-in-law have been charged. It's a start... it's a beginning. If things DO progress from there and Thaksin is sent packing away to some prison for the rest of his natural life, it would send shock waves through the whole corruption mind-set. Let it work its way down from there... and in a generation or two with the kids beginning to learn that it's not OK to pay off the land office in order to secure Dad's ill-gotten deed ... right on down to the local cop pay-off to avoid the non-existent traffic offense. Putting Potjaman and Thaksin away stands the potential for significant change in what has been a cultural norm.

Thaksin's history has been chockfull of "firsts"...

let his imprisonment continue that trend.

Edited February 19, 2007 by sriracha john