Denied Entry at DMK with 60 day visa from Penang

[LukKrueng]

On 11/25/2018 at 4:57 PM, markaoffy said:

Wrong! Not rules all over the world ! And your 4 points are just made up !


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Yet for the OP it worked exactly like that.......

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

The following is the law but it makes no distinction between working online or offline. It is in Thai and so far I have seen no English translation of it.

Royal Decree on Managing the Work of Foreigners B.E. 2560 (2017) - th

amended by

Royal Decree on Managing the Work of Foreigners (No. 2) B.E. 2561 (2018) - th

 

I assume that the interpretation of this law by the department of employment goes about like this: One section says that working requires a work permit, and another section says that a work permit is for people working for a business in Thailand. People working online don't work for a business in Thailand, but they have a businenn in another country, so they don't need a work permit, and if they don't need a work permit then what they are doing isn't work.

I agree that this might not be the most logical interpretation of this law, but it's probably what they are currently doing.

[Misty]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

People working online don't work for a business in Thailand, but they have a businenn in another country, so they don't need a work permit, and if they don't need a work permit then what they are doing isn't work.

 

So if someone lives in Thailand and works on their laptop for a business that's based in another country, you are saying that they don't need a work permit? 

[jackdd]

12 minutes ago, Misty said:

So if someone lives in Thailand and works on their laptop for a business that's based in another country, you are saying that they don't need a work permit? 

Yes, that's what the department of employment told me when i asked them, and that's also the conclusion to which you will come if you read different news regarding this topic. Here another news: https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/immigration-officers-raid-popular-co-working-space/

[theguyfromanotherforum]

5 hours ago, jackdd said:

Yes, that's what the department of employment told me when i asked them, and that's also the conclusion to which you will come if you read different news regarding this topic. Here another news: https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/immigration-officers-raid-popular-co-working-space/

 

Your "interpretation" doesn't make sense at all. If you spend majority of time in Thailand you are supposed to pay tax in Thailand. This is how it works in every country.

[jackdd]

4 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Your "interpretation" doesn't make sense at all. If you spend majority of time in Thailand you are supposed to pay tax in Thailand. This is how it works in every country. 

I never said anything different. But paying tax has nothing to do with which kind of visa you use for staying in Thailand.

[Sp4wnY]

6 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

Your "interpretation" doesn't make sense at all. If you spend majority of time in Thailand you are supposed to pay tax in Thailand. This is how it works in every country.

Did you even read our posts from a couple pages ago? We found out clearly why that is not the case.

And no, this is not how it works in every country. 

[Just Weird]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 9:02 AM, BobbyL said:

We were talking about this in the pub on Friday. Some people I know work here online etc and get regular tourist visas. They spend all their money in Thailand and are not taking a job from a Thai. 

 

I don't understand why the fuss around these people continues to happen. If they aren't doing anything illegal whilst here I wonder if Thailand can continue to push them away. 

"Some people I know work here online etc and get regular tourist visas".

 

"If they aren't doing anything illegal whilst here I wonder if Thailand can continue to push them away". 

 

Now, what could possibly be wrong with those two statements?  

[Just Weird]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:10 AM, jackdd said:

According to the department of employment people who work online (clients and money comes from abroad) are not considered to be working in Thailand, so using a tourist visa is ok.

Really?  So all those long-term "tourists" who live here on tourist visas and survive by working online are not abusing the system according to your interpretation of what the department of employment allegedly said?  I wonder what Immigration would have to say about that!

 

What a pity the DoE is not the department responsible for policing visa transgressors!

[BobbyL]

31 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

"Some people I know work here online etc and get regular tourist visas".

 

"If they aren't doing anything illegal whilst here I wonder if Thailand can continue to push them away". 

 

Now, what could possibly be wrong with those two statements?  

This is precisely the grey area that needs sorting as there must be 1000s doing it. If they aren't employed by a company here that makes them pay tax then why not just let them do what they're doing. 

 

Like my initial point was, can Thailand really afford to kick these people out when they're spending 2 or 3 times more each month in the country than your average Thai. 

 

For every 1 person that gets caught, there must be 9 people still doing it. 

[jackdd]

38 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Really?  So all those long-term "tourists" who live here on tourist visas and survive by working online are not abusing the system according to your interpretation of what the department of employment allegedly said?  I wonder what Immigration would have to say about that! 

 

What a pity the DoE is not the department responsible for policing visa transgressors!

You should look up the definition of "abuse", of course they are not abusing the system, because they aren't doing anything bad to Thailand.

Immigration police has to listen to what the department of employment says, they say it's not work, so immigration has to follow this

 

If working online were illegal while on a tourist visa, how do you explain the news where people were seen working online by immigration police, but they just let them go? How do you explain that immigration police isn't raiding co working spaces, where it would be very easy to find lots of people working online on tourist visas?

 

If you still believe working online on a tourist visa is illegal: Report a co working space of your choice to immigration police and see what the outcome is.

[Sp4wnY]

Working is not the problem, as we already found out. So what do we have left as a canon against those evil tourist visa abusers?

How about the fact that such people are indeed staying for a long time here?  I can see how a tourist visa is not meant for this and hence people are running into troubles all the time.

But then again, is there a law that limits the amount of tourist visas? 

So why do we still run into problems over and over again?

 

Well because we are suspected of: 

• working for thai companies, (clearly happening all the time)
• not having enough money to support our stay, 
• quotas that need to be filled,  (sure there are quotas to catch lazy stemp everyone through IOs)
• egos from IOs,  
• not getting the right visa (even though there is no such thing for many)

This can all be triggered by simple things like having too many visa exemptions. You did not do anything wrong but in their eyes you might.  I would even go so far and say that the IOs have some internal propaganda going around about people buying their way in through the airport without flying into thailand or whatever. Hence the demand of the boarding pass from OP.  But let's just leave that as conspiracy theory.

 

Regardless of OPs mistakes, People in this forum often try to reason the denials by saying a) we do not pay taxes or b) abuse tourist visas. The real issue is the grey area from the law which clearly does not support long term stayers nor does it make them illegal. 

I fear unless you have every supporting document possible in hand plus enough cash, there isn't much else you can do to proof your case.

 

Whether you are working remotely, are married to a Thai or retired long ago - Clearly everyone of us has to go through some sort of struggle and we will never have the same rights to stay here as someone who was born here. So let's not fight each other about this anymore and instead try to make the best out of it. 
 

[SheungWan]

15 hours ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

Your "interpretation" doesn't make sense at all. If you spend majority of time in Thailand you are supposed to pay tax in Thailand. This is how it works in every country.

Tax is not due in Thailand on dividends earned abroad. Different countries are not all the same.

[DjSiN]

7 hours ago, jackdd said:

You should look up the definition of "abuse", of course they are not abusing the system, because they aren't doing anything bad to Thailand.

Immigration police has to listen to what the department of employment says, they say it's not work, so immigration has to follow this

 

If working online were illegal while on a tourist visa, how do you explain the news where people were seen working online by immigration police, but they just let them go? How do you explain that immigration police isn't raiding co working spaces, where it would be very easy to find lots of people working online on tourist visas?

 

If you still believe working online on a tourist visa is illegal: Report a co working space of your choice to immigration police and see what the outcome is.

I totally agree 100%! 

There sure are some clowns on this forum. 

The whole point of work permits/visa is to keep foreigners in line with thai laws, re. not taking jobs away from Thais in certain fields, something some of these posters here are a bit confused about. 

Working online for a business, or your own business back in your home country, HAS ZERO to do with Thai work permits and tourist visas. 

Similarily, there is a BiG difference between paid employment, and gardening/mowing the lawn on your own 3rai of land. Other posters here believe u can't be a tourist AND mow your own lawn. (Maybe I need a work permit, haha). 

Amazing how many fuddy duddies on this forum hey. 

[Awk]

On 11/23/2018 at 3:10 AM, JackThompson said:

 

Please ignore those who will post blaming you - as it is clear you violated no laws, and did not deserve what happened.  In that context, it is not necessary to have an exit-ticket to show when entering with a Tourist Visa - only when entering Visa-Exempt.  As well, a "boarding pass" is generally used "for boarding" (long since completed), so that request was just another "gotcha," used to create a false-rationale for initiating your rejected-entry.

 

 

While I have not had any problems with immigration so far, last month, and I think a few times before that too, I I was also asked for my boarding pass.  I presented just my passport initially, but was then asked for my boarding pass too.  Don't know why they want to see it, but now I hold on to it till I've passed immigration at least.  Actually I can even remember some airport security guy asking me for my boarding pass when going down to take the airport train.  Think that only happened once though.  (I had already thrown it away by then of course, and told him as much in an annoying "w t f" tone.  No idea what that was about either.)

Edited November 27, 2018 by Awk

[balo]

10 hours ago, jackdd said:

If you still believe working online on a tourist visa is illegal: Report a co working space of your choice to immigration police and see what the outcome is.

Exactly , I have explained this before here on Thaivisa but the same posters seem to disagree. 

In Bangkok alone there must be 50 co-working spaces , they were not there 5 years ago so this is a new thing. Same in Chiang Mai.   

There never been any police raids there , and at least 50% of the "workers" are westerners. Just drop by any co-working place and see for yourself. They come and go as they want , maybe do 2-3 hours work from their laptop daily and that's it. Most people are between 20 and 40 years old, on tourist visas. 

 

 

 

[Andrew23]

I had the same experience when I got my entry denial at Suvarnabhumi airport. Yes, not all places in this airport are so shiny ????

 

Looks like this is a standard procedure for the people whose entry was denied:

1. Buy a ticket for the same airlines to the same destination you came from.

2. Wait for your departure in the locked prison-like room.

3. ALL your passports will not be given to you in Thailand. Your passports will be given to the airplane staff first. Then to the immigration officer in the destination country. And then he will decide what to do with your documents and you.

 

Of course, you are treated like a criminal. But who cares ????

 

The room costs 800 bath. It is locked like a prison (I wonder what the room would be if you refuse to pay). You are not allowed to leave the room. You are not allowed to meet your relatives or friends. You are allowed to eat only the food you are given. I was staying with around 10 people continuously coming and leaving. Full of cockroaches. I was sleeping and feeling cockroaches on my body but it was useless to deal with since there were 10+ cockroaches on my bed at any moment of time.

 

I met there a guy from Germany who has stayed there 1 week already. Most people were extremely stressed. Some were crying. Some of them couldn't speak English and didn't even understand why they are imprisoned in the country which wasn't their final destination (i guess this is because the deny of a transit visa). Without phone (no Thai sim card). Some of them were just 17 years old from very far countries. That was a really sad picture. But, again, who cares ???? 

 

You were lucky with AirAsia. Because AirAsia flies very often. You could be imprisoned for 1 week if you came to Thailand by some rare flight available once a week.

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Andrew23

[JimmyJ]

On 11/25/2018 at 4:21 AM, ParadiseLost said:

It is still your opinion, or assumption - you cannot state it conclusively as fact, can you?

 

Read that sentence again, nowhere does she state she is a US national; she asks what the US would do if it knew that its citizens were being treated this way, but that does not equate to her being from USA.

 

I hope you guys aren't English teachers ????

 

I read her statement as using the USA as an example, not that she's a USA citizen.

I feel the statement makes it appear she is not a USA citizen.

[Andrew23]

On 11/26/2018 at 5:10 AM, jackdd said:

According to the department of employment people who work online (clients and money comes from abroad) are not considered to be working in Thailand, so using a tourist visa is ok.

Can you provide any proof of this statement? Because I was blamed exactly for this thing: working online for the foreign company illegally because of the absence of work permit. Seemed word "online" and "abroad" didn't make any difference to the IO.

[songhklasid]

wouldn't youse be better looking at a permanent residence visa/ retirement visa, save all the hassle you risk experiencing every entry,

cheers songhklasid.

[jackdd]

3 hours ago, Andrew23 said:

Can you provide any proof of this statement? Because I was blamed exactly for this thing: working online for the foreign company illegally because of the absence of work permit. Seemed word "online" and "abroad" didn't make any difference to the IO.

As i said, this is what they told me. I didn't record the conversation. But you can just ask them yourself (let a Thai speaker talk with them to make sure they understand the details ;)), their hotline: 1694

Edited November 28, 2018 by jackdd

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Andrew23 said:

Can you provide any proof of this statement? Because I was blamed exactly for this thing: working online for the foreign company illegally because of the absence of work permit. Seemed word "online" and "abroad" didn't make any difference to the IO.

Recent changes in labor-law have made working online for a foreign-company even less of an issue than before.  Under the prior wording, it was easier to classify it as illegal activity on a type of entry where "Employment Prohibited" - so they had a better case.

 

But it doesn't necessarily matter what the law says.  We have reports of IOs telling people on a Non-O based on marriage that working with a valid work-permit was not permitted on that permit-of-stay, and they must get a Non-B Visa/extension.  That is 100% incorrect - but does it really matter what is lawful or not?

 

What is said, may only be whatever fits the power an official wishes to exercise at that moment.  In a country where officials are accountable to the law, if an official does this, they are reprimanded and/or and/or reassigned, demoted, or fired - possibly criminally-charged.  Because this does not reliably happen here, "adherence to laws" may be notably absent when dealing with immigration - at some entry-points and offices.  What replaces it, is "the law of the jungle" - "What I say goes."  All we can do, is try to avoid those locations.

[Duwanda Nunya]

On 11/23/2018 at 2:46 AM, KneeDeep said:

Thanks for posting your story.

 

You aren't a newbie. This is why you suffered. 

You stated that they didn't give you a chance, but they did, according to your own statement. She asked to see your exit ticket and you couldn't show it. You just appeared full of excuses.

Most people would be able to show it on their phone.

I'm not an IO, but your actions would look dodgy even to me. They suspect long-stayers of working illegally, so have all of your paperwork in order and find another port of entry. 

 

To get a Multiple Entry Visa you would need to show the Embassy proof of your business and income anyway. But yet you are dependent on Tourist Visas and waivers.

 

So your story isn't coming together for them. Get a better one. ????

 

 

Well they actually didn't give me a chance to show them my business or defend myself in any way. It was the last day of the month and "Big Joke" had told them to block as many people as possible. They let my husband in, same travel plans, same itinerary, same everything. But yes, the point is to tell everyone to always have all your paperwork with you at the time and not assume that a 60 day tourist visa means anything. I thought I was good to go and didn't need anything on me. My bad.

 

[fruitman]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:45 AM, ParadiseLost said:

I have an African country passport. I suspect the OP does not have US/UK/EU passport.

One day a lady in front of me at the immigration had an arguement with the IO's....she also was from Africa and wanted to go through to get her luggage to catch her next flight..they wouldn't let her pass though, no matter how hard she tried.

[Myran]

Another thing to point out (maybe someone beat me to the punch) is that a visa is not a guarantee to be allowed to enter the country, which you seem to think. The Penang office granted you a visa, but it is very much up to the immigration officer whether or not you are allowed into the country. Penang is absolutely not to blame here.