I want to loss my weight

[robblok]

Just now, Concrete said:

"have tried keto and it did not work for me"

 

How long did you do it for?

2 months, i tried all kind of diets. What works best for me (someone who hits the gym 4 times a week with heavy weights) is non keto but just low / medium carb lots of protein and veggies and extra carbs around the training on training days. 

[Concrete]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

No the 8 weeks was in a metabolic ward.. come back if you find 12 months in a metabolic ward. Studies in metabolic wards with dexa scans win hand down as they are controlled. Your studies are not. 

 

Metabolic ward studies are the best there are and because they are so accurate they show no difference. 

 

Its not science its junk science if its not done properly. 

8 weeks is a junk study. Actually any under 3 months is junk. Worthless.

[robblok]

Just now, Concrete said:

Just because you believe the earth is flat doesn't make it so.

 

Unless you have tried keto for 6 months or more you can't claim it doesnt work better cause results say it does.

No if they come up with 6 months in a metabolic ward test of keto then you got me convinced otherwise its all junk science. The the study i quoted was in a metabolic ward. The gold standard of tests. What you quote is junk science. (or at least not as accurate as metabolic ward studies)

[robblok]

Just now, Concrete said:

8 weeks is a junk study. Actually any under 3 months is junk. Worthless.

anything not done in a metabolic ward is junk worthless. so you have no studies. Then the 8 week will do and shows keto has no advantage. 

[Concrete]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

2 months, i tried all kind of diets. What works best for me (someone who hits the gym 4 times a week with heavy weights) is non keto but just low / medium carb lots of protein and veggies and extra carbs around the training on training days. 

So 8 weeks. Insignificant time period.

 

Even weight training programs need 3 months minimum for measureable results and diet is 6 to 12 months.

[Concrete]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

No if they come up with 6 months in a metabolic ward test of keto then you got me convinced otherwise its all junk science. The the study i quoted was in a metabolic ward. The gold standard of tests. What you quote is junk science. (or at least not as accurate as metabolic ward studies)

Rubbish. I did it myself. 

[Concrete]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

anything not done in a metabolic ward is junk worthless. so you have no studies. Then the 8 week will do and shows keto has no advantage. 

Just proves you are talking nonsense. People who change their lives over several years don't need people in white jackets to tell them what works.

 

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Concrete said:

So 8 weeks. Insignificant time period.

 

Even weight training programs need 3 months minimum for measureable results and diet is 6 to 12 months.

You absolutely have no clue about weight training vs diet.. diet shows it results far faster as weight training. Its easier to lose fat then to gain muscle. I wonder what you truly know if you don't even get that right. 

[Concrete]

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2.	Ebbeling, C. B., Swain, J. F., Feldman, H. A., Wong, W. W., Hachey, D. L., Garcia-Lago, E., & Ludwig, D. S. (2012). Effects of dietary composition on energy expenditure during weight-loss maintenance. Jama, 307(24), 2627-2634.
3.	Feinman, R. D., & Fine, E. J. (2004). "A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics. Nutr J, 3, 9.
4.	Feinman, R. D., & Fine, E. J. (2007). Nonequilibrium thermodynamics and energy efficiency in weight loss diets. Theor Biol Med Model, 4, 27.
5.	Volek, J.S., Sharman, M.J., Love, D.M., Avery, N.G., Gomez, A.L., Scheett, T.P., and Kraemer, W.J. (2002). Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet. Metabolism 51.
6.	Evero, N., Hackett, L. C., Clark, R. D., Phelan, S., & Hagobian, T. A. (2012). Aerobic exercise reduces neuronal responses in food reward brain regions. J Appl Physiol (1985), 112(9), 1612-1619.
7.	Black, L. E., Swan, P. D., & Alvar, B. A. (2010). Effects of intensity and volume on insulin sensitivity during acute bouts of resistance training. J Strength Cond Res, 24(4), 1109-1116.
8.	Ahren, B., & Thorsson, O. (2003). Increased insulin sensitivity is associated with reduced insulin and glucagon secretion and increased insulin clearance in man. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 88(3), 1264-1270.
9.	Bueno, N. B., de Melo, I. S., de Oliveira, S. L., & da Rocha Ataide, T. (2013). Very-low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet v. low-fat diet for long-term weight loss: a meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials. Br J Nutr, 110(7), 1178-1187.
10.	Sackner-Bernstein, J., Kanter, D., & Kaul, S. (2015). Dietary Intervention for Overweight and Obese Adults: Comparison of Low-Carbohydrate and Low-Fat Diets. A Meta-Analysis. PLoS One, 10(10), e0139817.
11.	Hallberg, S. J., McKenzie, A. L., Williams, P. T., Bhanpuri, N. H., Peters, A. L., Campbell, W. W., Volek, J. S. (2018). Effectiveness and Safety of a Novel Care Model for the Management of Type 2 Diabetes at 1 Year: An Open-Label, Non-Randomized, Controlled Study. Diabetes Ther.
12.	Willi, S. M., Oexmann, M. J., Wright, N. M., Collop, N. A., & Key, L. L., Jr. (1998). The effects of a high-protein, low-fat, ketogenic diet on adolescents with morbid obesity: body composition, blood chemistries, and sleep abnormalities. Pediatrics, 101(1 Pt 1), 61-67.
13.	Paoli A, Rubini A, Volek JS, Grimaldi KA. Beyond weight loss: a review of the therapeutic uses of very-low-carbohydrate (ketogenic) diets. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2013;67(8):789-796. doi:10.1038/ejcn.2013.116.
14.	Volek, J.S., Freidenreich, D.J., Saenz, C., Kunces, L.J., Creighton, B.C., Bartley, J.M., Davitt, P.M., Munoz, C.X., Anderson, J.M., Maresh, C.M., et al. (2016). Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners. Metabolism 65, 100-110.
15.	Manninen AH. Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate Diets: Misunderstood “Villains” of Human Metabolism. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition. 2004;1(2):7-11. doi:10.1186/1550-2783-1-2-7.
16.	Hall, K. D., Chen, K. Y., Guo, J., Lam, Y. Y., Leibel, R. L., Mayer, L. E., . . . Ravussin, E. (2016). Energy expenditure and body composition changes after an isocaloric ketogenic diet in overweight and obese men. Am J Clin Nutr, 104(2), 324-333.
17.	Gibson, A.A., Seimon, R.V., Lee, C.M., Ayre, J., Franklin, J., Markovic, T.P., Caterson, I.D., and Sainsbury, A. (2015). Do ketogenic diets really suppress appetite? A systematic review and meta-analysis. Obes. Rev. 16, 64-76.
18.	Sumithran, P., Prendergast, L. A., Delbridge, E., Purcell, K., Shulkes, A., Kriketos, A., & Proietto, J. (2013). Ketosis and appetite-mediating nutrients and hormones after weight loss. Eur J Clin Nutr, 67(7), 759-764.
19.	Johnstone, A. M., Horgan, G. W., Murison, S. D., Bremner, D. M., & Lobley, G. E. (2008). Effects of a high-protein ketogenic diet on hunger, appetite, and weight loss in obese men feeding ad libitum. Am J Clin Nutr, 87(1), 44-55.
20.	Stubbs BJ, Cox PJ, Evans RD, Cyranka M, Clarke K, De wet H. A Ketone Ester Drink Lowers Human Ghrelin and Appetite. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2018;26(2):269-273.
21.	Westerterp, K. R. (2004). Diet induced thermogenesis. Nutr Metab (Lond), 1(1), 5.
22.	Kraschnewski, J. L., Boan, J., Esposito, J., Sherwood, N. E., Lehman, E. B., Kephart, D. K., & Sciamanna, C. N. (2010). Long-term weight loss maintenance in the United States. Int J Obes (Lond), 34(11), 1644-1654.
23.	Youm, Y.-H., Nguyen, K.Y., Grant, R.W., Goldberg, E.L., Bodogai, M., Kim, D., D'Agostino, D., Planavsky, N., Lupfer, C., Kanneganti, T.D., et al. (2015). The ketone metabolite [beta]-hydroxybutyrate blocks NLRP3 inflammasome-mediated inflammatory disease. Nat. Med. 21, 263-269.
24.	Malhotra, A., DiNicolantonio, J. J., & Capewell, S. (2015). It is time to stop counting calories, and time instead to promote dietary changes that substantially and rapidly reduce cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. Open Heart, 2(1), e000273.

 

[robblok]

Just now, Concrete said:

Just proves you are talking nonsense. People who change their lives over several years don't need people in white jackets to tell them what works.

 

 

No what it proves in a true study where everything is measured by doctors and NOT self reported like in crap studies there is no difference. 

 

I know it hurts keto fanatics to have to admit that there is no real proof. 

 

Self reported studies are inaccurate, metabolic chamber where people stay at a research institution are not. Everything is controlled and measured by researchers. If you don't understand the difference between the two then you really have no clue. 

 

The reason they did not do 6 month metabolic chamber studies is that its expensive and its hard to find people who will stay for 6 months in a research institute without being able to go out. 

 

Long studies are usually self reported with the huge faults studies like that can have.

 

[Concrete]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

You absolutely have no clue about weight training vs diet.. diet shows it results far faster as weight training. Its easier to lose fat then to gain muscle. I wonder what you truly know if you don't even get that right. 

Rubbish. A diet is only effective if achievable over months and longer. Anyone can lose weight in the short term. Ask any professional.

 

And a 8 week study is junk.

 

 

[Concrete]

Just now, robblok said:

No what it proves in a true study where everything is measured by doctors and NOT self reported like in crap studies there is no difference. 

 

I know it hurts keto fanatics to have to admit that there is no real proof. 

 

Self reported studies are inaccurate, metabolic chamber where people stay at a research institution are not. Everything is controlled and measured by researchers. If you don't understand the difference between the two then you really have no clue. 

 

The reason they did not do 6 month metabolic chamber studies is that its expensive and its hard to find people who will stay for 6 months in a research institute without being able to go out. 

 

Long studies are usually self reported with the huge faults studies like that can have.

 

I just quoted 24 sources of doctors and experts.

 

It's ok you are a flat earther and you won't change your mind.

[Concrete]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/verylowcarbohydrate-ketogenic-diet-v-lowfat-diet-for-longterm-weight-loss-a-metaanalysis-of-randomised-controlled-trials/6FD9F975BAFF1D46F84C8BA9CE860783#

[Concrete]

The fat adaptation process on keto can take anywhere between 4-6 weeks or more so for a study to have any meaning you would need 3 months plus 4 weeks. So 4 months+ would show how it's working.

 

So comparing a low fat dier to keto over 8 weeks is meaningless junk.

 

It shows the guys in white coats don't understand keto and probably paid off by food companies that sell high carb foods.

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Concrete said:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/verylowcarbohydrate-ketogenic-diet-v-lowfat-diet-for-longterm-weight-loss-a-metaanalysis-of-randomised-controlled-trials/6FD9F975BAFF1D46F84C8BA9CE860783#

Again and for the last time, nice studies but these are self reported studies. Not metabolic chamber studies where food was actually measured and calories kept the same for keto and normal diet. 

With equal calories there is no real difference metabolic chamber experiments have proven that. You call it junk science because it blows your research out of the water.

 

The reason you still got better results from keto is because its easier for many people and they consume less calories when on keto. I never ever denied that it helps for some people. I denied that keto works better if calories are kept the same. Totally different thing.

 

Keto also does not work well for serious strength athletes abundant research about that available. It does work ok for endurance athletes. 

 

I am not against keto, i just say its not the best way to go for everyone. The best diet is the diet that you can keep and keto certainly is not easy to keep. (for some it is for others it is not).

 

You seem to be religiously converted to keto just like you got a group that swears by intermittent fasting and an other group that thinks paleo is the best. I am more one that keeps my options open and take the best from all diets.

 

For me that is low carb, high protein, reasonable fats and higher carbs on training days close to training time. That way I can build some muscle. Keto sucked for me, and there are plenty of other people that it sucks for too. That is the problem with guys like you. You think there is just one way to go while there is not. 

 

As long as you cut calories all diets work, and as the metabolic chamer study has shown if you eat the same amount of calories keto does NOT burn more. For some people its easier to eat less calories when doing keto compared to normal diets. For those it works great for others it does not.

[robblok]

Just now, Concrete said:

The fat adaptation process on keto can take anywhere between 4-6 weeks or more so for a study to have any meaning you would need 3 months plus 4 weeks. So 4 months+ would show how it's working.

 

So comparing a low fat dier to keto over 8 weeks is meaningless junk.

 

It shows the guys in white coats don't understand keto and probably paid off by food companies that sell high carb foods.

show me some research on that because that would mean our body is really really bad at converting to fuel. There is no way that its bad like that nature would not have allowed that.

 

Again more keto B.S.

[Concrete]

So basically the anti keto white coaters are judging it on 2 weeks only when it is just starting to work.

 

Junk study.

 

The 12 month data says keto wins.

 

 

[Concrete]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

show me some research on that because that would mean our body is really really bad at converting to fuel. There is no way that its bad like that nature would not have allowed that.

 

Again more keto B.S.

Just proves you don't understand keto.

[madmen]

Keto test strips can be bought from chemists. I find it fascinating that we can forcefully change how are body uses fuel and its scientifically proven to work by peeing on a strip.

[Concrete]

Adte

 

Phil Maffetone was one of the pioneers in fat metabolism as a competitive tool with his Maffetone Method of HR training which happens to be an important part of the training component of OFM. Phil, via Mark Allen and others, demonstrated pretty clearly from a results/observational evidence perspective that fat does, indeed, play a vital role. If one follows Phil's writings, you can see his shift more and more into the camp of carbohydrate restriction as another means to enhance this ability to tap into fat at higher and higher levels of physical activity.

So, if consuming lots of carbohydrates induces a strong insulin response, then sharply restricting them obviously brings insulin levels down and increases insulin sensitivity. When this happens at the level we are doing with the VESPA/OFM program the body makes a profound metabolic shift in which it prefers to burn fat aerobically, especially saturates. So now the saturated fats, the ones we have been told are harmful, become our most potent source of base energy.

This level of carbohydrate restriction is termed "Nutritional Ketosis" and the goal is to get an athlete at or near this level for a prolonged period during their base building or off season so this fundamental shift can get set. This is the foundation for the program. To become fat adapted, the initial phase can take anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks of carb addiction withdrawal, then a second phase of about 6-8 weeks of hormonal up-regulation. The third phase is really about making it a habit (which seems to happen after a year or two of practicing

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, madmen said:

Keto test strips can be bought from chemists. I find it fascinating that we can forcefully change how are body uses fuel and its scientifically proven to work by peeing on a strip.

The body has no chance if you eat no carbs it can't burn them. Problem is if you eat too much protein you can still be kicked out of ketose. 

 

But what i find facinating is that people can eat carbs (i know I do) and still lose fat. According to keto that should not be possible because it takes many weeks to adapt to burning fat ????

[Concrete]

So basically a comparison study under 10 weeks is not a good guide at all as it can take 10 weeks for the best of a keto diet to work.

 

My experience was similar. After 3 months the diet worked better with greater energy levels.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Concrete said:

Adte

 

Phil Maffetone was one of the pioneers in fat metabolism as a competitive tool with his Maffetone Method of HR training which happens to be an important part of the training component of OFM. Phil, via Mark Allen and others, demonstrated pretty clearly from a results/observational evidence perspective that fat does, indeed, play a vital role. If one follows Phil's writings, you can see his shift more and more into the camp of carbohydrate restriction as another means to enhance this ability to tap into fat at higher and higher levels of physical activity.

So, if consuming lots of carbohydrates induces a strong insulin response, then sharply restricting them obviously brings insulin levels down and increases insulin sensitivity. When this happens at the level we are doing with the VESPA/OFM program the body makes a profound metabolic shift in which it prefers to burn fat aerobically, especially saturates. So now the saturated fats, the ones we have been told are harmful, become our most potent source of base energy.

This level of carbohydrate restriction is termed "Nutritional Ketosis" and the goal is to get an athlete at or near this level for a prolonged period during their base building or off season so this fundamental shift can get set. This is the foundation for the program. To become fat adapted, the initial phase can take anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks of carb addiction withdrawal, then a second phase of about 6-8 weeks of hormonal up-regulation. The third phase is really about making it a habit (which seems to happen after a year or two of practicing

Funny if you can't burn fats when you eat carbs.. because you are basically saying you need to be fat adapted to burn fat. How is it possible that people who still eat carbs still burn fat ? Don't we have to be fat adapted for that ? Do explain that.

 

The body does not work like that it can switch when it wants not being fat adapted does not mean the body cannot burn fat. So it should have shown enough in the 8 weeks.

 

Again I don't say keto does not work, it can work but so can all the other diets. With equal calories it all does not matter much. Unless your diet is unhealthy like a twinkie diet yo can still lose weight just not good for your health.

[Concrete]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

The body has no chance if you eat no carbs it can't burn them. Problem is if you eat too much protein you can still be kicked out of ketose. 

 

But what i find facinating is that people can eat carbs (i know I do) and still lose fat. According to keto that should not be possible because it takes many weeks to adapt to burning fat ????

You lift weights. That burns fat and speeds up metabolism. Early morning exercise  ie after 12 hours of no food burns more fat as the body has less glycogen to access. Lots of people walk in morning. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Concrete said:

So basically a comparison study under 10 weeks is not a good guide at all as it can take 10 weeks for the best of a keto diet to work.

 

My experience was similar. After 3 months the diet worked better with greater energy levels.

basically its just finding excuses why keto did not work better as you think. They are talking 3 days to two weeks. It should have shown already in the tests. You found something that works for you fine. But by thinking there are no other ways your as intolerant as a religious fanatic. 

[Concrete]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Funny if you can't burn fats when you eat carbs.. because you are basically saying you need to be fat adapted to burn fat. How is it possible that people who still eat carbs still burn fat ? Don't we have to be fat adapted for that ? Do explain that.

 

The body does not work like that it can switch when it wants not being fat adapted does not mean the body cannot burn fat. So it should have shown enough in the 8 weeks.

 

Again I don't say keto does not work, it can work but so can all the other diets. With equal calories it all does not matter much. Unless your diet is unhealthy like a twinkie diet yo can still lose weight just not good for your health.

No the body adjusts to become more efficient at fat burning. After years of high carb the body isnt used to high fat burning. That process takes up to 10 weeks to be more effective.

 

 

[Concrete]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

basically its just finding excuses why keto did not work better as you think. They are talking 3 days to two weeks. It should have shown already in the tests. You found something that works for you fine. But by thinking there are no other ways your as intolerant as a religious fanatic. 

Wrong again. Takes 10 weeks for proper efgmficient fat burning and hormonal adjustment.

 

You are the classic flat earther. 

[Concrete]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

basically its just finding excuses why keto did not work better as you think. They are talking 3 days to two weeks. It should have shown already in the tests. You found something that works for you fine. But by thinking there are no other ways your as intolerant as a religious fanatic. 

Over 12 months it worked better. Proven science.

 

You are just making up excuses for the result by quoting an 8 week study which is a short term insignificant time period.

 

Anyone with a clue about diet knows 12 month results matter a lot more than 8 weeks and people who did keto for more than 3 months know this. You gave up before the best results start to happen. Maybe you are a quitter.

 

 

[metisdead]

This topic is now closed due to incessant bickering about a keto diet.