The health care in the US (and most Western countries) really sucks. That is, most people don't seem to take very good care of their health. Levels of obesity, stress, alcoholism/addiction, poor diet, etc. are very high. That is the responsibility of the individual, most often. The care of the already unhealthy is another matter and I agree with others that it is poor at best. Do what you can to stay healthy! Don't trash your body and then become resentful that other people can't or won't put you back together again.

Of course this man's death was a tragedy - as any death is, but I agree wholeheartedly with November rain. I too was an RGN working in the NHS and saw its' gradual decine. The waste was phenomenal as was the theft. A crepe bandage here, a suture kit there, soon adds up. On top of that, there is the ward closures to contend with...........................................

After awhile it gets boring discussing anything with Boon Mee. If you bring up a point he can't answer he just ignores it and pastes something else in. Pity he has no independant thought and only seems able to parrot the drivel that Fox news spoon feeds him.

Fact is the UK healthcare is still avaiable to ALL citizens regardless of their NI contributions or what their wealth level is. hel_l of a lot better being on a waiting list than having no hope of treatment at all or even worse, paying into a health care policy for years only to be refused cover from the insurance company cause there is a small print in the policy or the treatment isn't cost effective. Boon you can argue all your like but I hope one day you don't find yourself or a loved one unable to have treatment cause some greedy HMO thinks it will eat into their profit margin.

Always paid my own way.

And....are you English?

Fact is the UK healthcare is still avaiable to ALL citizens regardless of their NI contributions or what their wealth level is. hel_l of a lot better being on a waiting list than having no hope of treatment at all or even worse, paying into a health care policy for years only to be refused cover from the insurance company cause there is a small print in the policy or the treatment isn't cost effective. Boon you can argue all your like but I hope one day you don't find yourself or a loved one unable to have treatment cause some greedy HMO thinks it will eat into their profit margin.

Agree with Boo here .. I used to work in the NHS as a lab tech and could see the gradual decline and cutbacks in services and moral in our particular department many years ago.

However as Boo has rightly pointed out the NHS is available to all and what they provide is fantastic considering some of the constraints the staff and facilities are put under.

I would much rather be sick in the UK than any other place if I had the choice.

And....are you English?

Does it matter? Why should people pay taxes on their hard-earned money to support some freeloader that don't work and don't pay taxes in that country? Should I get a freebie, just because I am that nationality and believe that the country owes me for being a national? Sorry, that's rubbish in my book. I work and I pay my own way. No unions, no co-ops. I wanna donate, I donate. Do not not make me do it by group choice. Why do you think your country owes you something? They give it all away to refugees anyway.

They give it all away to refugees anyway.

And the real Jet rears her head.......

That's a total load of <deleted> by the way. Show some figures to back that up.

Why is it a freebie if we do contribute? We contribute because we expect & then get medical treatment without a bill at the end of it. Good for you if you pay your own way. Must be nice to have enough money to pay for any & all medical treatment you need. Not everyone has that luxury & not all people benefitting from the NHS are freloaders. Kids, old people living off a pension, the disabled. And as for the refugee comment, I hardly think so. I work & pay NI contributions as does my husband, thats what we pay them for, so that others who need the care get it as do I & he when we need it. Doesn't matter who's money went into the pot, we all get it regardless.

So I will ask again are you English or are you talking about something you have no expereince of?

And....are you English?

Does it matter? Why should people pay taxes on their hard-earned money to support some freeloader that don't work and don't pay taxes in that country? Should I get a freebie, just because I am that nationality and believe that the country owes me for being a national? Sorry, that's rubbish in my book. I work and I pay my own way. No unions, no co-ops. I wanna donate, I donate. Do not not make me do it by group choice. Why do you think your country owes you something? They give it all away to refugees anyway.

Mmmmmm... hold on Jet. Your being very judgemental there, because somebody needs public healthcare it doesn't mean they are 'some freeloader that don't work and don't pay taxes' mostly it's people that work on very average or below average wages, that don't have enough to contribute to a private health scheme or aren't fortunate to work for a company that supplies a healthcare scheme, but those people do contribute to the public health system through tax and contributions. Stop watching Fox and wind your tresses in.

And....are you English?

Does it matter? Why should people pay taxes on their hard-earned money to support some freeloader that don't work and don't pay taxes in that country? Should I get a freebie, just because I am that nationality and believe that the country owes me for being a national? Sorry, that's rubbish in my book. I work and I pay my own way. No unions, no co-ops. I wanna donate, I donate. Do not not make me do it by group choice. Why do you think your country owes you something? They give it all away to refugees anyway.

Mmmmmm... hold on Jet. Your being very judgemental there, because somebody needs public healthcare it doesn't mean they are 'some freeloader that don't work and don't pay taxes' mostly it's people that work on very average or below average wages, that don't have enough to contribute to a private health scheme or aren't fortunate to work for a company that supplies a healthcare scheme, but those people do contribute to the public health system through tax and contributions. Stop watching Fox and wind your tresses in.

Quick divergence and maybe Boo or Robski can answer this question ...

If one has been away from the UK for many years and has not contributed to their NI at all for many years what is the script if one is to return and require medical treatment in the UK.

Is it still available on the NHS for free or must contributions be bought up to date first from the last time of payment ... or must one just begin contributing again from their point of rearrival....?

A friend recently returned after several years outside of the Uk suffering with a very serious respritory illness, She was covered from the first day after registering at a GP, which I acted as her introduction as she was homeless as well & sleeping on my sofa. She has received all treatment & made a recovery (no longer high risk) although her full recovery will take several years due to major lunch damage. The only requirement ONE of her treatment centres needed (she was under several) was that she was planning on staying in the UK for a while otherwise she would have to pay for her medication only. She was also given housing benefit & variouis disability benifits as she is unable to work at the moment. There were a couple of benefits she wasn't entitled to as she had to be in the country for 6months but her treatment was given from day one.

A friend recently returned after several years outside of the Uk suffering with a very serious respritory illness, She was covered from the first day after registering at a GP, which I acted as her introduction as she was homeless as well & sleeping on my sofa. She has received all treatment & made a recovery (no longer high risk) although her full recovery will take several years due to major lunch damage. The only requirement ONE of her treatment centres needed (she was under several) was that she was planning on staying in the UK for a while otherwise she would have to pay for her medication only. She was also given housing benefit & variouis disability benifits as she is unable to work at the moment. There were a couple of benefits she wasn't entitled to as she had to be in the country for 6months but her treatment was given from day one.

Thanks for the info Boo ... I hope your friend makes a full recovery and is back to full fitness sooner than predicted.

Oh, dear. Waiting for the banging.

If one pays the taxes, one should be entitled to provisions when you are unable to pay. So they say.

But, if you do not pay because you are overseas, why should you benefit, just because you have citizenship? I like to see the older folks taken care of, and those who have severe illnesses. I get angry when I see farang in Asia living off of "pensions" because they are "sick". Poppycock.

But, Jet, some people, like my Mum do pay their NI contributions, even though they live overseas. And, as it was, she stayed & had her treatment here & paid for it out of her own money.

Just to back up "socialised medicine" further. Nearly a year ago, my Thai BF contracted pneumonia. He was initially put in a Thai 30 baht public hospital where they misdiagnosed it as asthma & he had to do all basic nursing care for himself, including administer his own oxygen. My Mum & I got him out of there & he was admitted to ICU in a private hospital in HH. Mum paid. Later that night, I got a phone call from his doctor saying he might die & his only chance was to transfer him to Thonburi in BKK. So, I went with him in the ambulance. I lived in Thonburi ICU waiting room for 2 weeks, whilst he was in a coma. They gave excellent care, but he died after 3 weeks in hospital. All in all, my Mum paid approx 300,000 bt for his care in those 3 weeks. Then she paid for his funeral. She is now in HK, teaching to earn money, as between medical expenses and many other things she has no money left.

Partly that shows what a wonderful person my Mum is, but my main point is: if they had a half decent socialised care programme in Thailand, my BF would have been entitled to good care, free. He may or may not have lived, I don't know if the end outcome would have been different, but he might have had more of a chance.

Quick divergence and maybe Boo or Robski can answer this question ...

If one has been away from the UK for many years and has not contributed to their NI at all for many years what is the script if one is to return and require medical treatment in the UK.

Is it still available on the NHS for free or must contributions be bought up to date first from the last time of payment ... or must one just begin contributing again from their point of rearrival....?

I'm not entirely sure David, if your out of the country then your not going to be liable for income tax, but NHS services are mostly funded with National Insurance contributions and it is important to keep them up to date or sufficent enough to cover your state pension fund. I'm self employed and I get a lot of leeway with tax, but can getted nailed if I don't pay my NI.

Oh, dear. Waiting for the banging.

If one pays the taxes, one should be entitled to provisions when you are unable to pay. So they say.

But, if you do not pay because you are overseas, why should you benefit, just because you have citizenship? I like to see the older folks taken care of, and those who have severe illnesses. I get angry when I see farang in Asia living off of "pensions" because they are "sick". Poppycock.

Oh dear you have got your knickers in a twist today haven't you.

Do you see a lot of 'farang in Asia living off of "pensions" because they are "sick".' from the rarified atmosphere of your ivory tower? Where do you see them? And even if they did exist is it up to you to decide what they do with the pensions that they deserve? Or maybe you think they don't deserve a pension, even though they contribute to them.

The NHS and the State Pension are two institutions to be proud of, even though they are constantly lambasted and bastardized and run down by 'liberal' capitalists and right wing ideologues.

It is is a well worn phrase, but very fitting to say that people fought and died for the rights to these institutions, and it is shameful that you would denegrate them and the people that need them, because you might think it may eat into your share profit or give people standards that you think should be only for the priviledged.

I think that you think everybody should just think like you, but I'm glad they don't.

Sorry about your boyfriend November Rain.

Hope your mom is doing well. She sounds like a very decent woman.

While I am a great fan and supporter of the British National Health Service I believe it suffers from four major problems.

The fist is fundemental and arrises from the whole idea of 'cradle to the grave welfare'. There is a total disconnect between rights and responsibility. Yes a resident of the UK has the right to health care at the point of need, but there is no corresponding personal responsibility. Drink, smoke, abuse yourself with drugs, over eat, eat crap food, put yourself at risk with dangerous driving/dangerous sports generally disregard your own health because the NHS must take care of you.

The second problem is government interference. Others have said enough about that.

Third and forth are two problems relating to who gets what care.

In the UK women receive the vast majority of the health budget, if you are bloke and worse still a signle bloke your rights to healt care come absolutely second to those of every woman in the country.

Things can only be worse for you if you are afflicted withe the forth problem - The wrong post code.

Your postcode defines the catchment area for your medical facilities, and if you live in a working class area you are going to get <deleted> NHS services compared with those available in middle class areas.

The NHs was introduced for all, but in particular to those that were unable to pay for full medical care out of their own income, the alternative was to continue with the Dickensian Work and Poor Houses or get thrown in jail, just so they would no longer trouble the rest of the Worthies who travelled the streets.

Taxes of any form contribute to society as a whole, whether hard earned or not, and are there as a safety net for those that are less fortunate and indeed for those that are comfortably well off, if you require the services of a medical body, well you will have to go a long way to beat the NHS, of course as a previous poster has stated they cannot get it right all the time, but considering they are the biggest employer in the UK, I guess they do not do too bad.

It has also been stated that as a single guy you will get second priority to a female of any station, complete and utter nonsense.

I have received exceptional treatment for a condition for an extended period of time, I was single with no dependencies, so I am not sure how this statement is supported, also as stated previously, I have been ill recently and the treatment again, was exceptional. I cannot have been lucky on both occasions, surely.

Any supporting Links to this statement?

As for the other statement relating to what has become known in Populist doctrine, as the Postcode Lottery, are you sure this is not down to individual Health Authorities budgetry restrictions and has nothing to do with Working or Middle classes, whatever that description may be?

Any Links again?

There has been a lot of media and legal attention recently, particularly on the why's and wherefore's regarding Herceptin and the cost of prescribing, but forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't that treatment for Breast cancer, overwhelmingly, if not entirely, a female disease. No preferential treatment there then.

Just curious to where the opinions come from and if indeed they are opinions or a statement of fact.

Refugees, asylum seekers and any other relevant Flotsam or Jetsam in this country are entitled to support as agreed by international convention and/or UK law, just as we are under the same agreements with any reciprocal Country, although the UK will follow its own laws where neccessary, these guys are just as capable of contributing to society with their own taxes and so the cycle continues, if the system is not too the individuals liking they can vote for an alternative.

Good Luck

Moss

But using accurate information wouldn't back up their political views silly.

Well, why is it we continue to read such 'information' as the following:?

"In Canada, the average wait to see a specialist is 17 weeks. The newly-elected president of the Canadian Medical Association told the New York Times, “This is a country in which a dog can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two or three years.”

Link

How long do you wait in the US if you don't have insurance?

A friend recently returned after several years outside of the Uk suffering with a very serious respritory illness, She was covered from the first day after registering at a GP, which I acted as her introduction as she was homeless as well & sleeping on my sofa. She has received all treatment & made a recovery (no longer high risk) although her full recovery will take several years due to major lunch damage. The only requirement ONE of her treatment centres needed (she was under several) was that she was planning on staying in the UK for a while otherwise she would have to pay for her medication only. She was also given housing benefit & variouis disability benifits as she is unable to work at the moment. There were a couple of benefits she wasn't entitled to as she had to be in the country for 6months but her treatment was given from day one.

Thanks for the info Boo ... I hope your friend makes a full recovery and is back to full fitness sooner than predicted.

The NHS rules state that if you leave the UK and live in another non-EU country for more than three months you are no longer theoretically entitled to non-emergency treatment in the UK. If you tell them that you've moved back to the UK to live they'll treat you as a resident again.

I seriously doubt that if the people who make such a big deal about paying their own way found out tomorrow that they had cancer, that they would choose to die over taking the "handout" of universal medical care from the state.

I wonder if those who like to stick the "socialist" tag to universal health care all send their children to private schools, or are they getting a socialist education?

Always paid my own way.

'Paying your own way' depends on where you live. Are you saying that if you lived in a country where medical care was financed by general taxation that you'd refuse to accept that care and insist on 'paying your own pay' even though you'd already paid for it through payroll deductions?

After awhile it gets boring discussing anything with Boon Mee. If you bring up a point he can't answer he just ignores it and pastes something else in. Pity he has no independant thought and only seems able to parrot the drivel that Fox news spoon feeds him.

After a while it gets boring replying to anything cdnvic posts as all he does is regurgitate the bleeding-heart liberal line.

Shame he's not a Mod anymore or I'd get some demerits for this post!

Oh boy, I made some enemies here.

First off, NR, really sad to hear that happened to you and God bless you and your Mom. I thought that the Bt30 health care was the socialised scheme for Thailand. I feel the pain of your tragedy.

I lived and worked in HK, Japan, England, US, Singapore, Thailand, and even my country of birth. I paid health insurance, either thru the company or on my own, besides whatever services that were provided by the state via my tax contributions. I never used social health services, because I did not believe I had the right of priviledge and I did not need to use them. (Hey, a smoker who rarely got anything but a cold or flu which were passed on by non-smokers.)

My parents are Canadian. Worked, saved, paid taxed their whole lives and are now restricted access to medical services, because they are in their 80s. Doc says, well, it's not really worth your while as you are of such an advanced age. What? Same with an aunty; her doctor tells her there is no cure for her eye disease that is definitely treatable and has a cure. I researched it. Oh well, 84, you can be blind. Had a good life. Next.

Here's one for you CdnVic: A Thai doctor and friend told me about his father's bout with cancer. He said they paid about Bt3mil for treatment, but he died anyway. The doc told me, Jet, if they can't cure it, but recommend a bunch of drugs to delay your departure and lengthen your days of pain, go for the pain killers instead, enjoy the time you have with your friends, and be at peace with yourself. That's for me. Any pennies I have left will go to kids that really need help. Dogs, too.

I never meant to attack anyone who is really in need of medical assistance and cannot afford it. Especially the young and the elderly. If my tax dollars go towards that fine. I do take umbrage with people who abuse the systems by going to the doc everytime they have an ache or pain. And take sick days because they are lazy.

Oh, I do remember trying to make an appointment for a pap smear in London, Endure. About a year's wait. Hmmm, great healthcare system if the preventative measures are back-burnered. That's why I pay and do annual checks.

After awhile it gets boring discussing anything with Boon Mee. If you bring up a point he can't answer he just ignores it and pastes something else in. Pity he has no independant thought and only seems able to parrot the drivel that Fox news spoon feeds him.

After a while it gets boring replying to anything cdnvic posts as all he does is regurgitate the bleeding-heart liberal line.

Shame he's not a Mod anymore or I'd get some demerits for this post!

Well that just goes to prove you don't bother reading other people's posts. I'm happy to be a free thinker that can make up his own mind rather than just take the propoganda that's spoonfed to me. Pity you aren't so privilaged.

Oh boy, I made some enemies here.

Screw 'em...keep up the common sense posts Jet.

'Bout time we had some rational, objective debate here in Bedlam vs. the drivel that's permeated this formerly fine thread!

To some, big government is what they crave.

Nanny states don't survive in the long run. Perhaps we can get Meadish to weigh in on how Sweden has had to retrench its cradle to grave social model in recent years?

Back on topic. The basic problem I have with socialized medicine is a philosophical one. In effect, universal health care makes health care a right. In fact, John Kerry called it a right in 2004 (and went unchallenged as usual). A simple question for the supporters of this: At what point did health care become a right? Our basic inalienable rights (free speech, owning guns, etc.) do not impose on others. You can exercise these rights without imposition. Once we concede the premise that health care (or education, a nice place to live, transportation, etc.) are rights, we are headed down a path where anything can be declared a right if enough people want it. Or are we already there? Want a right? Put it to a vote...

With ya, Boon Mee. But, I do agree that we should try to take care of those who really cannot take care of themselves, especially the aged and the infirm. Funny, checking with Canadian care giving and the BC gov closed a major mental health hospital and sent all the patients out to the streets. Guess that's why there are so many homeless in bleeding heart liberal Vancouver where the mayor gives drugs to prostitutes in the back of his van. Maybe these street people will get more money from tourists when the Olympics comes to town. Wonder if they get free health care on demand?