With ya, Boon Mee. But, I do agree that we should try to take care of those who really cannot take care of themselves, especially the aged and the infirm. Funny, checking with Canadian care giving and the BC gov closed a major mental health hospital and sent all the patients out to the streets. Guess that's why there are so many homeless in bleeding heart liberal Vancouver where the mayor gives drugs to prostitutes in the back of his van. Maybe these street people will get more money from tourists when the Olympics comes to town. Wonder if they get free health care on demand?

Almost as liberal as Amsterdam with its Needle Park, eh?

Back on topic. The basic problem I have with socialized medicine is a philosophical one. In effect, universal health care makes health care a right. In fact, John Kerry called it a right in 2004 (and went unchallenged as usual). A simple question for the supporters of this: At what point did health care become a right? Our basic inalienable rights (free speech, owning guns, etc.) do not impose on others. You can exercise these rights without imposition. Once we concede the premise that health care (or education, a nice place to live, transportation, etc.) are rights, we are headed down a path where anything can be declared a right if enough people want it. Or are we already there? Want a right? Put it to a vote...

I don't understand this. Your OP was about British healthcare. Now, you're talking about basic inalienable rights, stating that heathcare isn't one but owning guns is. American rights, as guaranteed by your constitution, do not always translate to other countries. In UK, healthcare is far nearer to being an inalienable right than bearing arms! And please don't get me started on whether owning weapons imposes on others or not; a whole other debate!!!

Stop confusing apples & oranges! The US and the UK are (thank the Lord) vastly different! Decide which you're talking about & stick to it..

I haven't read the thread, but I'm on Boon Mee's side because he is my buddy!

I haven't read the thread, but I'm on Boon Mee's side because he is my buddy!

Cheers, UG

NR

We're talking about Socialized Medicine not specific to any one country.

The OP focused on the UK but the thread has expanded upon that one example of the poor man who died before he was permitted a procedure.

Can happen in any country that practices socialism...

I haven't read the thread, but I'm on Boon Mee's side because he is my buddy!

Cheers, UG

NR

We're talking about Socialized Medicine not specific to any one country.

The OP focused on the UK but the thread has expanded upon that one example of the poor man who died before he was permitted a procedure.

Can happen in any country that practices socialism...

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Uh...you want to expand on that thought, thaibebob?

Does that mean you support a Nanny State?

We're talking about Socialized Medicine not specific to any one country.

The OP focused on the UK but the thread has expanded upon that one example of the poor man who died before he was permitted a procedure.

Can happen in any country that practices socialism...

Monkey see monkey do they say.

No comments from the peanut gallery.

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Uh...you want to expand on that thought, thaibebob?

Does that mean you support a Nanny State?

No system is perfect and if you look hard enough you will find flaws with seemingly the most perfect system.

As for the UK NHS which is specifically what your OP is about then take note of those of us that have worked within and used this system.

Yes, there are problems (and the example that you quote from great established literary giant 'the Sun' is one very extreme example) but the service it actually provides to those that need it and are entitled to it, is fantastic ... again, I repeat myself, despite the ongoing cutbacks and downsizing.

I'm not quite sure what your point is Boon Mee ... are you vehemently against the NHS because of what you read in the Sun and do you think that the health care system that is employed in the US is the 'way to go' ...?

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Uh...you want to expand on that thought, thaibebob?

Does that mean you support a Nanny State?

Thaibebob? I already told you I am not from Texas.

Not a complete "nanny state" as you call it, but I feel that there should be, especially in America with so much wealth, that peoeple should be able to find health care without taking out loans. If I bought insurance myself, which I tried I was paying over 350USD a month just for me, alone!! The cost of our health care and the difficulty of receiving said health care is just outrageous.

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Uh...you want to expand on that thought, thaibebob?

Does that mean you support a Nanny State?

Thaibebob? I already told you I am not from Texas.

Not a complete "nanny state" as you call it, but I feel that there should be, especially in America with so much wealth, that peoeple should be able to find health care without taking out loans. If I bought insurance myself, which I tried I was paying over 350USD a month just for me, alone!! The cost of our health care and the difficulty of receiving said health care is just outrageous.

$350.00 per month is cheap!

Folks spend a lot more on car insurance.

The reason medical costs are so high is due to Trial Attorneys and the cost of malpractice insurance for medical workers.

Monkey see monkey do they say.

Uh...you want to expand on that thought, thaibebob?

Does that mean you support a Nanny State?

Thaibebob? I already told you I am not from Texas.

Not a complete "nanny state" as you call it, but I feel that there should be, especially in America with so much wealth, that peoeple should be able to find health care without taking out loans. If I bought insurance myself, which I tried I was paying over 350USD a month just for me, alone!! The cost of our health care and the difficulty of receiving said health care is just outrageous.

$350.00 per month is cheap!

Folks spend a lot more on car insurance.

The reason medical costs are so high is due to Trial Attorneys and the cost of malpractice insurance for medical workers.

That was just for me, not including my wife and child. Cheap, maybe to someone who makes more than minium wage. Right now I make something like 8USD an hour. I have insurance through the company but it takes me months to pay off a 300USD medical bill that my insurance doesn't cover. I am grateful for the coverage I have but should anyone have to go into debt for months even years because they broke their leg, or had a crown put in. The docs should be paid that I don't deny, but I am for quality of life. I will make a sacrifice so that I have no worries about seeing a doc.

The basic problem I have... ...is a philosophical one.

That is the most FOS comment I've ever heard you make Boon,

especially in context of what you then go on to say.

It has also been stated that as a single guy you will get second priority to a female of any station, complete and utter nonsense......Any supporting Links to this statement?

You don't need links, look for yourself.

Next time you visit your GP ask him if you can register for the 'Well Men's Group' - That's exactly like the 'Well Women's Clinic' a focused set of medical services catering for the specific needs of men. Just like the "Well Women's Clinic' the men's versions receives dedicated government funding and just like the 'Well Women's Clinic' it is a requirement under the Government's NHS Directives that your Health Authority Establishes a "Well Men's Clinc' to focus on men's health needs.

Be sure to be in good spirits when you ask about your local health authority's 'Well Men's Clinic' because they are going to tell you to sod off, they don't have one, there are no plans to have one and the kind of budgets available for the 'Well Women's Clinic' are never going to be made available for men's health.

OK you say, but there is other help available.

Yeh right. Don't be too disappointed at being told to sod off over the 'Well Men's Clinic' thing, take some time before you leave your doctor's surgery to have a look at the wealth of information available to you on the posters, leaflets, health groups etc - You'll find these plastered all over the waiting room walls and table tops.

Take a close look how many are focused on women's health issues. How many are focused on general health issues. Are there even any focused on men's health? This is no joke, I even spotted one leaflet aimed at women on why your husband's snoring might effect your health.

As for the other statement relating to what has become known in Populist doctrine, as the Postcode Lottery, are you sure this is not down to individual Health Authorities budgetary restrictions and has nothing to do with Working or Middle classes, whatever that description may be?

First of all, I guess you are in denial that class exists in the UK. I don't have time to put you right on that.

But let me give you some of my own experience.

I have an Apartment in Edinburgh's New Town, forgive the statement for a moment, but Edinburgh's New Town is a solidly middle class area. Putting aside the idea of middle class it is also extremely affluent. And I mean extremely so. Our local doctor's surgery is world class, in terms of facilities and medical care.

I have another home in an Oxfordshire Village, that too is a solidly middleclass area (sorry for using that term again) and is once again extremely affluent. Yes it also boasts a fantastic medical practice.

Now I also have brothers and sisters and of course parents who don't live in such affluent areas, or indeed middle class areas(oops sorry it slipped out). On various occasions of family visits we have had occasion to use each other's medical centers. The contrast is shocking.

Now that is a personal observation, but don't take my word for it.

Go to any estate agents in the UK and start a discussion about housing and good areas to live in. Having a good medical practice in the area where you are looking to buy/sell is a premium... And guess what, the good medical practices are found in those middle class (oops there's that term again)/affluent areas.

If you honestly believe that the medical practice and care available for people living in the deprived estates of the UK inner cities is anywhere near as good as that to be found in the middleclass (oops sorry I did it again) affluent areas, then you are need to perhaps get your doctor to test your faculties of analysis next time you manage to get an appointment... which will be delayed if they happen to have a 'Well Women's Clinic' running, they sure as hel_l will not have a well men's clinic.

GH that may be in the area you live but in mine my husband was offered a well man check as soon as he registered at the GP on arriving in the UK & gets regular mails reminding him to make his next appointment.

Each area is different. But not all are as you described.

Each area is different.

Indeed, it is half my argument that each area is different. The other half is that middleclass/affluent areas are better.

Now I do not doubt there are exceptions, but it has not been my experience.

I haven't read the thread, but I'm on Boon Mee's side because he is my buddy!

Cheers, UG

NR

We're talking about Socialized Medicine not specific to any one country.

The OP focused on the UK but the thread has expanded upon that one example of the poor man who died before he was permitted a procedure.

Can happen in any country that practices socialism...

He could have paid for the procedure in exactly the same way he would have to do in the US.

He hasn't commented on the socialist school system in the US

It has also been stated that as a single guy you will get second priority to a female of any station, complete and utter nonsense......Any supporting Links to this statement?

You don't need links, look for yourself.

Next time you visit your GP ask him if you can register for the 'Well Men's Group' - That's exactly like the 'Well Women's Clinic' a focused set of medical services catering for the specific needs of men. Just like the "Well Women's Clinic' the men's versions receives dedicated government funding and just like the 'Well Women's Clinic' it is a requirement under the Government's NHS Directives that your Health Authority Establishes a "Well Men's Clinc' to focus on men's health needs.

Be sure to be in good spirits when you ask about your local health authority's 'Well Men's Clinic' because they are going to tell you to sod off, they don't have one, there are no plans to have one and the kind of budgets available for the 'Well Women's Clinic' are never going to be made available for men's health.

OK you say, but there is other help available.

Yeh right. Don't be too disappointed at being told to sod off over the 'Well Men's Clinic' thing, take some time before you leave your doctor's surgery to have a look at the wealth of information available to you on the posters, leaflets, health groups etc - You'll find these plastered all over the waiting room walls and table tops.

Take a close look how many are focused on women's health issues. How many are focused on general health issues. Are there even any focused on men's health? This is no joke, I even spotted one leaflet aimed at women on why your husband's snoring might effect your health.

As for the other statement relating to what has become known in Populist doctrine, as the Postcode Lottery, are you sure this is not down to individual Health Authorities budgetary restrictions and has nothing to do with Working or Middle classes, whatever that description may be?

First of all, I guess you are in denial that class exists in the UK. I don't have time to put you right on that.

But let me give you some of my own experience.

I have an Apartment in Edinburgh's New Town, forgive the statement for a moment, but Edinburgh's New Town is a solidly middle class area. Putting aside the idea of middle class it is also extremely affluent. And I mean extremely so. Our local doctor's surgery is world class, in terms of facilities and medical care.

I have another home in an Oxfordshire Village, that too is a solidly middleclass area (sorry for using that term again) and is once again extremely affluent. Yes it also boasts a fantastic medical practice.

Now I also have brothers and sisters and of course parents who don't live in such affluent areas, or indeed middle class areas(oops sorry it slipped out). On various occasions of family visits we have had occasion to use each other's medical centers. The contrast is shocking.

Now that is a personal observation, but don't take my word for it.

Go to any estate agents in the UK and start a discussion about housing and good areas to live in. Having a good medical practice in the area where you are looking to buy/sell is a premium... And guess what, the good medical practices are found in those middle class (oops there's that term again)/affluent areas.

If you honestly believe that the medical practice and care available for people living in the deprived estates of the UK inner cities is anywhere near as good as that to be found in the middleclass (oops sorry I did it again) affluent areas, then you are need to perhaps get your doctor to test your faculties of analysis next time you manage to get an appointment... which will be delayed if they happen to have a 'Well Women's Clinic' running, they sure as hel_l will not have a well men's clinic.

So GH are you saying that if you as a single male walk into your local NHS surgery or hospital you will receive worse or slower treatment than if you were female ...?

I have never encountered anyone receiving preferential treatment within the NHS because of their sex alone.

Whether there are more leaflets available in a surgery or health centre on a given day relevent to one particuler sex or not this is totally irrelevent to the end result .. the treatment provided to the patient at the counter ... non preferential regarding that persons sex alone (I included the 'alone' note as we all realise that emergencies, type of illness etc are incorporated when decision of preference are made).

As you have pointed out different areas will have different budgets and I'm sure rural Oxfordshire is going to have a higher budget to allocate to its health centers and hospitals than inner city areas .. unfortunately this is the way it is .. inner city or non affluent areas have many problems and funding for health facilities are just one of these problems.

So in whole I disagree with your first statement but agree with your second statement.

The NHS is an old beast and noone pretends that it is perfect but at least it does provide healthcare to those that need it ... there will be mistakes and there will be delays and there will be variences within the beast but at least it does reach out and try to embrace everyone.

So GH are you saying that if you as a single male walk into your local NHS surgery or hospital you will receive worse or slower treatment than if you were female ...?

In a word.. Yes.

I have never encountered anyone receiving preferential treatment within the NHS because of their sex alone.

Let me introduce myself. Now you have.

Whether there are more leaflets available in a surgery or health centre on a given day relevent to one particuler sex or not this is totally irrelevent to the end result ..

It is indicative of the gender bias in budget and focus of the medical care - Nudget and you focus... gets results... it is relevent.

the treatment provided to the patient at the counter ... non preferential regarding that persons sex alone (I included the 'alone' note as we all realise that emergencies, type of illness etc are incorporated when decision of preference are made).

You have to first get to the counter. When I last called a doctor in the UK to make an appointment I was told that I could not see a doctor for three days. I was calling for my wife, who at the time was not comfortable using her English over the phone. Accepting the three day wait, I gave my wife's name. The recpetionist remarked. "I see the appointment is for your wife'..... Hey presto, a slot was free that afternoon.

Go figure.

As you have pointed out different areas will have different budgets and I'm sure rural Oxfordshire is going to have a higher budget to allocate to its health centers and hospitals than inner city areas .. unfortunately this is the way it is .. inner city or non affluent areas have many problems and funding for health facilities are just one of these problems

So in whole I disagree with your first statement but agree with your second statement..

Not quite, Edinburgh New Town is a definate inner city area, but it has first rate medical facilities - My point being that Edinburgh New Town is Middle Class and highly affluent. The social class of the patient catchment area (Post Code if you like) is highly significant.

The NHS is an old beast and noone pretends that it is perfect but at least it does provide healthcare to those that need it ... there will be mistakes and there will be delays and there will be variences within the beast but at least it does reach out and try to embrace everyone.

I do not disagree with this at all.

But I think it is a mistake to disregard the influence of the external pressures on NHS policy. And I believe gender and social class to be highly significant in the level of care a patient recieves.

Of course you have to first accept that Class is still and issue in the UK, many do not. I say they are kidding themselves.

Interesting points GH and as you have experienced gender bias then naturally you will be more disposed to the thought of there actually being a gender bias within the NHS.

I have not experienced this bias either as a patient or as an employee within the NHS so I am more disposed towards neutrality regarding gender bias within the NHS, however, I have been away for a few years and maybe things have changed ... interesting points you raise nether the less.

The class issue is a separate debate in its own right, however, I am sure that you will find more and more affluent people are taking out private health care policies anyway, bypassing the NHS altogether.... this was already in evidence before I left the UK.

The basic problem I have... ...is a philosophical one.

That is the most FOS comment I've ever heard you make Boon,

especially in context of what you then go on to say.

I knew it might throw ya'll with difficulties understanding words with more than two or three syllables!

It has also been stated that as a single guy you will get second priority to a female of any station, complete and utter nonsense......Any supporting Links to this statement?

You don't need links, look for yourself.

Next time you visit your GP ask him if you can register for the 'Well Men's Group' - OK I will! That's exactly like the 'Well Women's Clinic' a focused set of medical services catering for the specific needs of men. Just like the "Well Women's Clinic' the men's versions receives dedicated government funding and just like the 'Well Women's Clinic' it is a requirement under the Government's NHS Directives that your Health Authority Establishes a "Well Men's Clinc' to focus on men's health needs.

Be sure to be in good spirits when you ask about your local health authority's 'Well Men's Clinic' because they are going to tell you to sod off, they don't have one, there are no plans to have one and the kind of budgets available for the 'Well Women's Clinic' are never going to be made available for men's health.

OK you say, but there is other help available.

Yeh right. Don't be too disappointed at being told to sod off You jest surely? I have never known anybody who has been told to sod off by a medical practice, care to share over the 'Well Men's Clinic' thing, take some time before you leave your doctor's surgery to have a look at the wealth of information available to you on the posters, leaflets, health groups etc - You'll find these plastered all over the waiting room walls and table tops. As you can probably guess, I require the need to visit a Dr's surgery on a frequent basis, I have not noticed the over-indulgence of womens need over and above that of other specialized groups. Flu Vaccine for the elderly and vulnerable, Meningitis and TB , Breast and Testicular and Bowel cancer awareness, certainly, young toddler groups and I have even seen a help group for single fathers.

This is what I see, but, as a counter-arguement the pre-dominance of Womens groups and help associations would not show up on my radar, so at present, the jury will have to be out on this point.

Take a close look how many are focused on women's health issues. How many are focused on general health issues. Are there even any focused on men's health? This is no joke, I even spotted one leaflet aimed at women on why your husband's snoring might effect your health. ( This is an important issue, I have a friend who's maariage is in doubt because of his outrageous snoring, so this is a family issue not a singularly Female problem)

I feel I have answered this above, but like I said, the jury will remain out until tomorrow where I visit the TB clinic in Oxford and the following Wednesday when I visit my GP because of a separate on-going issue.

As for the other statement relating to what has become known in Populist doctrine, as the Postcode Lottery, are you sure this is not down to individual Health Authorities budgetary restrictions and has nothing to do with Working or Middle classes, whatever that description may be?

First of all, I guess you are in denial that class exists in the UK. I don't have time to put you right on that. I am afraid I am not in denial of its existence, just the recognizable boundaries, so how you could possibly put me right, I am temporarily at a loss. However, I try and ignore, fight it or just downright rail against it, in every sense since I was able to recognize it. As for putting me right please try! and let me know where one class starts or anther finishes, I would like to know your views on such an Apartheid sense of convictions, although I am not suggesting you hold such views yourself.

But let me give you some of my own experience.

I have an Apartment in Edinburgh's New Town, forgive the statement for a moment, but Edinburgh's New Town is a solidly middle class area. Putting aside the idea of middle class it is also extremely affluent. And I mean extremely so. Our local doctor's surgery is world class, in terms of facilities and medical care.

I have another home in an Oxfordshire Village, that too is a solidly middleclass area (sorry for using that term again) and is once again extremely affluent. Yes it also boasts a fantastic medical practice.

Now I also have brothers and sisters and of course parents who don't live in such affluent areas, or indeed middle class areas(oops sorry it slipped out). On various occasions of family visits we have had occasion to use each other's medical centers. The contrast is shocking.

Now that is a personal observation, but don't take my word for it.

Go to any estate agents in the UK and start a discussion about housing and good areas to live in. Having a good medical practice in the area where you are looking to buy/sell is a premium... And guess what, the good medical practices are found in those middle class (oops there's that term again)/affluent areas.

If you honestly believe that the medical practice and care available for people living in the deprived estates of the UK inner cities is anywhere near as good as that to be found in the middleclass (oops sorry I did it again) affluent areas, then you are need to perhaps get your doctor to test your faculties of analysis next time you manage to get an appointment... which will be delayed if they happen to have a 'Well Women's Clinic' running, they sure as hel_l will not have a well men's clinic.

Pray tell, as you appear to keep mentioning it, where Lower class and Middle class end or begin.

The reason why I ask, is that I live in Oxford, (as you have a house in a middle class/affluent area of the county you should be able to answer this), and the Medical centre I use is certainly not in an affluent/middle class area, ( remember I am guessing here on this fact, as I appear to need educating on this point), although I don't actually live in the catchment area of the practice, but I believe it to be excellent.

If you know Oxford it is in the Cowley area.

Anyway I hope your quest for a 'Well Being Clinic', is successful, because I feel you need to have your blood pressure checked-out.

Good Luck

Moss

He hasn't commented on the socialist school system in the US

He hasn't answered mine either.

From a strictly economical viewpoint on a national scale, subsidiced medicin via goverment hospitals are sections of private hospitals is a good thing. I do however also think that a person should always have a choice to decide if he wants to spend more on his healthcare, and that private hospitals isn't an evil thing.

He hasn't commented on the socialist school system in the US

The topic is Socialized Medicine.

Not some spurious discussion of school systems.

You want to talk about education - open another thread?

You love to throw the socialism tag around yet as usual you duck and cover when it gets thrown back at you. Still ducking I see.

Boonee is obviously a Selective Socialist

He's just gone to read Rush Limbaugh's blog so that he can find out what he's supposed to think in this situation.

He's just gone to read Rush Limbaugh's blog so that he can find out what he's supposed to think in this situation.

Boon Mee wanted a serious debate but he's disappeared when it has actually begun ... still many unanswered questions from your camp Boon or are you having trouble getting past page 3 ...?