What To Do About A Deceased Expat's Bills and Bank

[BadSpottedDog]

A friend of mine passed away in Thailand recently. He was from the USA and had lived in Thailand for over 13 years. He had no family, but had "adopted" a Thai family. He supported them in many ways over time, and the deal was for them to care for him in return when he was old, and they did stay in the hospital with him during his final days.
I also travelled to stay in the hospital with him for a while. I was able to help pay the bills from his accounts (insurance didn't cover over 8 weeks in hospital), and deal with his finances for him. He was unable to sign a power of attorney form, but I do have a video of him authorizing me to do this. He also gave me logins to all of his accounts. He had a legal will for Thailand as well as one from the USA. The entirety of his estate was left to the head of the Thai family. The Thai Will also names the head of the Thai family as executor. So he is both heir and executor.
The Thai family is very uneducated, and have absolutely no clue about banking or money or wills or math or legal anything. They cannot even understand that they will be getting more money! They cannot understand why the deceased's automatic payments stopped coming to them, and keep asking me about that, even though I managed to send them quite a large sum already! I have used 2 separate translators to explain what is happening, and they still do not understand. They have inherited quite a bit of money and a HOUSE that is paid for in the USA! I only have the video with the deceased's approval, but no legal document authorizing me to do anything with the money. 
The heir is ok with signing a power of attorney form for me, but is dragging his feet! He says he can do it in a month or 2. In the meantime, there are bills due for this house in America, as well as attorneys there who will need to set up an estate account, handle taxes and insurance, etc.

My question is will I get in trouble if I keep transferring money out of the Thai bank? I'm really not feeling comfortable doing it at this point, but bills need to be paid and I want to honor the deceased's wishes. If the USA portion of the estate goes into probate, it could be more than a year before the family sees any money, and the cost of legal fees, etc .. will be much greater. 
Do I just walk away from this? Or keep moving money? What happens if a transfer is made after the bank is notified? What a mess!!

[1FinickyOne]

I think any assets in USA will have to go into probate... I think you need a lawyer to get involved. A good law firm with both Thai and USA lawyers would be best... 

[BadSpottedDog]

Thanks @kenk24. I do have an attorney in the states working on this, but Thai attorneys generally take HALF, from what I hear. That would be tragic, not to mention that bills need to be paid now. ???? 

[CharlieH]

Whilst admirable, I think you are getting too involved in this, and you need to pass this to the right people,  and step back before you get burned.

Let the USA lawyers handle it, let them sort out local professionals etc to liase with.

[NancyL]

Lanna Lawyers in Chiang Mai has both Thai and a U.S. lawyer on staff and they charge by the hour, not by taking a percentage of the estate.  I think there are law firms in Bangkok that also have U.S. lawyers on staff.  You need to get lawyers involved and get away from this.  You can get into big trouble accessing someone's bank account after death.  A POA ceases when the person dies and the Final Will takes over.  

[ukrules]

54 minutes ago, BadSpottedDog said:

The heir is ok with signing a power of attorney form for me, but is dragging his feet! He says he can do it in a month or 2.

That doesn't sound very convenient considering you're trying to help them.

 

If it was me I'd cut all ties and just leave them to it.

 

[BadSpottedDog]

Thanks @NancyL .. My plan was to get a financial power of attorney from the heir, not from the deceased. He is so overwhelmed. He lives far north in the country, so it's difficult to meet with him to get the document certified. 

It's sad. The house in America has elderly tenants, and if not handled properly, they will be evicted. ????

[NancyL]

2 minutes ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thanks @NancyL .. My plan was to get a financial power of attorney from the heir, not from the deceased. He is so overwhelmed. He lives far north in the country, so it's difficult to meet with him to get the document certified. 

It's sad. The house in America has elderly tenants, and if not handled properly, they will be evicted. ????

Right about the POA from the heir, but you asked about continuing to transfer money out of the deceased's bank account presumably on the strength of the video POA.  No can do.

[BadSpottedDog]

Additionally, the USA money is all in stocks, which will need to be sold and some managed, then sold over a period of time. Not handled properly, it could be a disaster ... considering what the deceased's intentions were.

[farang62]

Run Away!

It is a Thai Thing let them deal with it.

[colinneil]

OP step away, you will only end up with serious problems, and probably get stitched up.

Under no circumstance touch any bank accounts of the deceased, could result in problems with the law.

[KittenKong]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thai attorneys generally take HALF, from what I hear

Only the bent ones.

[cnx355]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thanks @kenk24. I do have an attorney in the states working on this, but Thai attorneys generally take HALF, from what I hear. That would be tragic, not to mention that bills need to be paid now. ???? 

i have a friend that died here in Thailand and all I can say is get the family a Thai lawyer to go to the will process that has to be acknowledged by Thai judge. Even if the loose 20-25 % in lawyer fees it is better that nothing. The lawyer will give you a fee according as how much money they  expect to receive from the will. Hope you can find a good lawyer. Ask around for references and negotiate the fees. Executor has to agree and sign documents.

 

Probably stop giving money as you may never get it back from the family. But it is charitable to help them without expecting any money back. 

 

The process is long but with he Thai will and executor accepted by the court it should be easy.  The problem the family will need hep from. you and translator  to understand the process. Like Nancy suggested , get the power of attorney from th Thai executor. Lawyered and stamped officially.

 

Good luck

Edited November 26, 2018 by cnx355
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[KittenKong]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

In the meantime, there are bills due for this house in America, as well as attorneys there who will need to set up an estate account, handle taxes and insurance, etc.

 

14 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

The house in America has elderly tenants, and if not handled properly, they will be evicted.

 

14 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Additionally, the USA money is all in stocks, which will need to be sold and some managed, then sold over a period of time.

The US lawyer should be using the rental income to pay the bills on the house and, if necessary, he can sell some of the stocks.

 

As for the Thai inheritors: I would stop being involved altogether. Whatever they end up getting they will probably lose or squander or be tricked out of as fast as it comes in. And at some point some Thai will suggest to them that you are creaming something off or otherwise mismanaging the situation. They will believe that and may then start pursuing you for what they think they may have lost.

[Kerryd]

You obviously haven't even bothered talking to a Thai lawyer or you'd know that they don't "take half".
When my dad died (in Thailand) he too had a Will in Thailand and one in Canada. The law firm I used (in Thailand) charged me a flat fee of 100,000 baht to process his will (less than 10% of the value of his estate in Thailand which basically consisted of some cash in the bank, a scooter and some personal possessions).

That paid for them to do the Probate (and the translator when I went to court) and whatever paperwork was needed. It all went smoothly. (Note the probate can't be done until 45+ days after the person has died.)

I had to go back to Canada and get a law firm there to do the same thing. Again, they take a percentage of the value of the estate (7-10% or thereabouts). I didn't even have to be there when they went to court (the lawyer had a Power of Attorney from me) . Once the probate was done, they sent all the paperwork to me so I could close dad's bank accounts and such.

I wouldn't even think about touching the dead guy's bank accounts, even to pay his bills. You are setting yourself up to be accused of stealing his money. I highly doubt his Thai "family" don't have a clue what is going on. It's more likely they know exactly what is happening and are waiting for you to take care of (and pay for) everything for them.

Dump the whole affair on the lap of a Thai lawyer and step away. Do not touch his bank accounts or you risk being accused of stealing his money. Make sure his Embassy is aware of his death (if they aren't already). They will want his passport so it can be cancelled. I believe they also have to issue an official letter that grants the Executor of the Will permission to deal with the remains. I had to have that letter before I could make arrangements at a local temple for dad's cremation.

The lawyers in the US should be able to arrange for his Social Security and other pension payments to be stopped (any money paid out after the person's death would have to be repaid or they could take legal action). Easy enough to find Probate Lawyers in the deceased's home state that can do the job.

My dad used DMC Law in Pattaya (which is the same place I use as well) - located just behind TukCom. The lawyer (Khun Chantima) speaks English as do her staff (at least the one I deal with all the time). Probably wouldn't even cost you anything to go there (or somewhere similar close to where you are) and actually talk to a lawyer (or 2) about the situation and get some actual legal advice.
 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Kerryd

[shaurene]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thanks @kenk24. I do have an attorney in the states working on this, but Thai attorneys generally take HALF, from what I hear. That would be tragic, not to mention that bills need to be paid now. ???? 

You never mentioned what part in Thailand. I am in Khon Kaen and have a good Aussie PHD Dr friend who is married to a top lawyer who also does work for the Government, she is very good. I would say, you do need to pass this on, I don't like your comment when you say the head of the family will not help you, (refuses to sign something) Their whole village will know and they will all be telling him to do this, do that etc. They listen to others. He knows they have his money etc. Get your expenses out and go live in peace. The Thai family will come to you.

[Katia]

I agree with everyone else-- don't do any more.  I don't know about Thailand, but you could be setting yourself up for trouble in the U.S.  Losing money to lawyers will be unfortunate, but it will go worse for them if they just do nothing and badly for you if you're seen as mismanaging funds that you aren't even legally supposed to be touching.  If money needs to be taken from the bank accounts for bills, bring the heir/executor with you to do it.  If he won't... well... that's still not your problem.  Unfortunately, someone needs to get it through this family's head what needs to be done and how to act in their best interest.  They're not listening to you. 

 

You're not responsible for them; you've gone above and beyond (and put yourself in danger of legal and financial hot water yourself) to help them; now it's time to act according to the law and stop putting yourself out there.  If your friend was this concerned about what would happen regarding this family's care-- and surely he knew they were like this-- he surely could have made some sort of legal provisions (does Thailand have trusts?) for this to be taken care of even if they weren't legally-savvy and capable of doing much... as he apparently didn't, perhaps you're more concerned about it than he was.  Put them in the hands of a lawyer and keep *your* hands off-- for your safety and sanity.

 

As others have said, probate will need to be involved in the U.S. since there's real estate.  It sounds at this point like the best thing to do would be to sell the house, though that of course could take time as well (again, due to probate).  My guess is that this family isn't going to be going to the U.S. to live in it, and it would be beyond them to manage it as a rental from Thailand, even if they hired a U.S. local management company, and they probably don't have the cash for its upkeep.

[FritsSikkink]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thanks @NancyL .. My plan was to get a financial power of attorney from the heir, not from the deceased. He is so overwhelmed. He lives far north in the country, so it's difficult to meet with him to get the document certified. 

It's sad. The house in America has elderly tenants, and if not handled properly, they will be evicted. ????

You should not get financial power, let the lawyers sort it out with the Thais

[FritsSikkink]

15 hours ago, BadSpottedDog said:

Thanks @NancyL .. My plan was to get a financial power of attorney from the heir, not from the deceased. He is so overwhelmed. He lives far north in the country, so it's difficult to meet with him to get the document certified. 

It's sad. The house in America has elderly tenants, and if not handled properly, they will be evicted. ????

How can they be evicted if the house is paid for? Just respect the will. If you want to help guide them to a good lawyer and don't touch the money.

[dotpoom]

My only contribution to this post is that your friend who passed away ( and the Thai family) was pretty blessed to have such a good friend as yourself.

You are maybe that "One in a million"...God Bless you...

[Katia]

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

How can they be evicted if the house is paid for? Just respect the will. If you want to help guide them to a good lawyer and don't touch the money.

I assume the house has taxes, maintenance, a management company running the show that needs to be paid, etc.  A paid-off house is not free, despite what people would like you to think and whatever you might save over rent with the mortgage or lack thereof ought to go into a bank account for when the property taxes come due (they are becoming astronomical in some areas), the furnace or water heater breaks, the roof needs to be replaced, the pipes burst in winter, etc.).  Also, OP didn't say whether house is already paid off, or has the type of mortgage insurance that ensures the rest of the mortgage is paid if the owner dies or what must happen to make that kick in/what happens until it does.  And I don't know the legalities of a renter remaining in a house with a deceased owner; it's possible action must be taken by the executor/lawyer to enable them to remain.

 

(It's also worth it to note: I don't know about Thai estate law, but in the U.S., just because you're nominated as executor in a will doesn't mean you are the executor until you're appointed by the court.  So your Thai friend's inaction is also denying him the legal actions he can/must take as executor, if he chooses to take up that role.  You could perhaps ask to be appointed by the court instead if the Thai guy doesn't want to do it, but I'd leave it to the lawyers if I were you.)

[BritManToo]

32 minutes ago, Katia said:

I assume the house has taxes, maintenance, a management company running the show that needs to be paid, etc.  A paid-off house is not free,

Not free in the western world, but free in most of Asia.

Which will probably cause more understanding problems.

[Katia]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

Not free in the western world, but free in most of Asia.

Which will probably cause more understanding problems.

But the house is in the U.S., not Asia.

[BadSpottedDog]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

 

The US lawyer should be using the rental income to pay the bills on the house and, if necessary, he can sell some of the stocks.

 

As for the Thai inheritors: I would stop being involved altogether. Whatever they end up getting they will probably lose or squander or be tricked out of as fast as it comes in. And at some point some Thai will suggest to them that you are creaming something off or otherwise mismanaging the situation. They will believe that and may then start pursuing you for what they think they may have lost.

 

[BadSpottedDog]

Yes, But the tenants don't pay rent. My friend let them live there for free. They only pay a handful of the bills, and keep the house in good condition ????

[Tbone999]

From the advice of others, I would highly agree. Do Not touch the account under any circumstances, you have no legal access to his affairs at all and you will be in serious trouble if you are found to have been logging in to his account and transferring cash out. The only way to go forward is as others have said, engage a lawyer service preferably with a counterpart in the US and they should be able to handle everything from there. The lawyers will contact the thai family and making them do all the necessary, as it's their business in the end. You can then talk with the lawyer and see what is the best route for all.

[dapperdan]

Why no mention of USA Embassy? They have a guy who goes around taking care of things like this. A lawyer in New York State can legally take a third.

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, dapperdan said:

Why no mention of USA Embassy? They have a guy who goes around taking care of things like this. A lawyer in New York State can legally take a third.

A third? So US lawyers can be just as greedy as Thai lawyers? What a wonderful world we live in.

The OP is exceeding his original powers. A power of attorney ceases once the person dies, and in any case a video may not be sufficiently valid. Step away while you can, you may already be at risk of criminal prosecution.

[willi2006]

It might be technically possible to manage the bank account of a deceased person with an ATM card or online. But it is illegal in Thailand and I think in other countries too.
The executor has to take the will to the court and get approval, no lawyer required. After that he can execute the last will.

At the Thai courts are lawyers who give some advice for free.

Edited November 26, 2018 by willi2006

[DJ54]

At some point in time the hospital will contact the US Embassy and they will give to US. At that time all bank accounts will be 

frozen. 

 

Twice a person with same as mine passed away and unfortunately Bank thought it was me and accounts were frozen. I had to go to

Socail Security and the Bank to prove not dead and the Bank needed documents from SS which they only give a document that

no death benefits have been under my SSN.