Rejected at the airport, what is next?

[alex8912]

21 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I didn't say that arriving tourists don't need cash. Most tourists carry cash and immigration accept cash in any exchangeable currency so there is no need to change to Thai baht before passport control.

 

Immigration do not, as a general rule, ask tourists to show 10/20K. They, as a general rule, only ask people they are considering to deny entry to who tend to be long term tourists.

 

I am saying that if the IO asks to see 20K -- and you have it -- they can in many cases, lawfully, find another reason to deny entry. In this case the OP was denied on two counts. Even if he had 20K the other reason would stand.

 

A METV does not let you stay up to 9 months. It was never designed as a way to stay in the country for months/years. It is a multiple entry visa designed for people that want to visit frequently, and was targeted primarily at the Asian market.

 

His explusion notice and entry denial stamp clearly give two reasons. But the underlying reason was his cumulative time spent in the country.

 

Using back to back METV's to stay months years is not a legitimate way to stay long term so we can't really complain when immigration say enough. Unfortunately there is a disconnect between consulates that dish out visas for financial gain, and immigration who have to police the border. I wouldn't be surprised if the issue of back to back METV's doesn't soon get clamped down on if the practice grows.

 

I don't think showing bank statements at the border is the solution in cases like this. Typical tourists have hotel bookings, onward flights pocket money, stay for short periods and generally have large gaps between visits. That is the profile IO's are looking for.

 

Ok thanks for your info as usual. But I disagree about some of the things you are saying about an METV. It can easily be used for 9 months because if you use it right after you get it and extend twice and leave the country after each 30 day extension it can go for 9 months. I think you do know this  but your statement that it’s not to be used for months seems off I mean it’s full name is a six month multiple entry tourist visa isn’t it?? It replaced the triple entry ( and some places only got double entry) tourist visas a few years ago. Those were also for staying 6 or more months with extensions. 

What I think a lot of posters don’t realize is that many snowbirds for example , like myself come here every year for about six months in Winter and I go home for example right after Songkran about April 15 and come back in October. I have 4 METV ‘s in my current passport and three double and triple entry visas before that ( that’s 2 doubles and one triple )  

I feel like what other visa is possible ?for retirement extension I’m never here mid April to about mid Oct for reports and maybe I can’t time my yearly extension because of this AND I go home for 6 months to work full time in the Spring and summer. If/ when they question me someday I’ll be polite but if I fit into their “ not a tourist “ profile then what the hell am I ?? I’ll havd 20k cash, I’ll have a ticket out within 60 days and I’ll have a flight home booked 4/15/19 for example this year.  There is something strange going on and I think there could be some quota thing even though you think differently. No one asked the Israeli guy if he was with a female IO yet ( I don’t think) 

but last year when I came back into Don Meuang 7 out of 8 windows were female. I went to the male . When 2 people were left in front of me they switched the male to a female lol !! 

Anyways thanks again for your help. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by alex8912

[Gilsh]

how about opening a company? then I will have a work permit and could enter freely, right?

[Caldera]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Section 12.2 effectively allows the IO to deny entry because the person has stayed in the country a long time without proving -- through normal channels -- their financial standing to continue that long stay.

That is, of course, just your personal opinion and you've consistently failed to back it up with anything official from either immigration headquarters or those overseeing them, whenever challenged.

 

Others are of the opinion that Thai officials generally have a tendency to make rules up as they see fit in what they consider their personal fiefdom, which explains why each immigration office and checkpoint is essentially a law unto itself.

 

To the OP and others in a similar situation: A tourist, unlike a resident, has the liberty to shop around. Use it to your benefit.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Gilsh said:

I can not fly to KL with an Israeli passport. I can fly to Laos only through Bangkok (in a connection flight) and it is very expansive. 

@JackJohnson I can also fly to Thailand through Phuket, Is that a good option? 

 

I would not recommend that.  Chang Mai would be the least problematic airport - but as you will be returning with a fresh denial-of-entry, I would not try this on your next entry.

 

2 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

Just get a new passport with no stamps in it That should help a lot

That would have no effect on entering the country.  Immigration computers will link his new and old passport data in seconds, and show all previous history.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

As far as I'm aware , if you stay in Thailand for over six months , you become liable to pay tax , although most people dont have to pay tax in Thailand because their income is taxed at home .

   If you were talking about the education visa and the "six month rule" , if you get a school ed visa , you get stamped in for 3 months and you can extend for a further 3 months , then after six months , you have to go abroad and come back for a further 3 months

You can start with the ED Visa, and stay the whole year with 3 additional extensions.  According to reports, it costs 3K to 5K baht "extra," paid through the school for each extension, to get the full 90-days per extension (attending student or not - though I recommend attending with proof that one did).  After a year, you must get a new Visa abroad.  Most language-courses will not exceed 18 months, unless you can find those offering more advanced courses.

Edited December 2, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, onera1961 said:

What those normal channels will be for someone with a tourist visa (like an elite visa)?

The elite is a completely legalized pay-off, which bypasses all verification of future finances for the life of the visa.  You can be broke after buying it - spend nothing but what you make collecting empty bottles for recycling, and live in squalor. 

 

But, one can have many times the cost of one in the bank - ready to spend at legit-businesses (instead of spent paying-off cronies) and could get the OP's experience.  This example is an easy way to determine that a nation's immigration-service is not serving the public-interest.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

You continue to completely; misunderstand the law, not accept the lawful power IO's have, and along with others misinform long term tourists.

I am very clear about not misinforming, which could lead people into traps such as the OP experienced.  There are IOs at the Bangkok Airports and the Poipet/Aranya border-crossing who will deny entry, lie about the laws, then use a stamp which has nothing to do with their lies, and without doing any due-diligence to determine if the stamp they use has any relevance to the visitor in question. 

 

They are essentially All Powerful, precisely because they are not held to account to the nation's very limited laws (vs some others) regarding denial of entry.  Some of us have experienced the same exercise of unlawful power in immigration-offices, and were equally helpless to do anything about it.  This is a fact of life here, unless and until it is ever cleaned up (not holding my breath).

 

Some immigration offices and personnel are decent and professional - even friendly.  I get smiles in Issan often.  But, in cases like the OP's, it is like finding oneself unexpectedly in a backwater banana-republic (but less friendly than most of those), when one encounters throwbacks acting like this.  They are a terrible blight on Thailand, a wonderful country in most respects.

 

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

In Thai law, "genuine tourist" is defined as not working a job, and having the money to afford one's next stay of 60-days (with a Tourist Visa).

Not sure I've ever seen that law.

That's the law regarding tourists - must have money, cannot work illegally.  Of course, not being a wanted criminal and etc also - but the 3 types of denial stamps which have been used in cases like the OP concerned money or illegal-working.

 

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

I think you will find that immigration consider a 'typical' tourist to be someone that visits for a short term holiday/stay, and goes home.

I don't think I've ever seen a law defining a "typical tourist."

 

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

A METV does not let you stay up to 9 months. It was never designed as a way to stay in the country for months/years. It is a multiple entry visa designed for people that want to visit frequently, and was targeted primarily at the Asian market.

In that case, they made serious errors when they designed it.  To meet the description of what you are saying they intended to do, the rules for its use would be completely different than they are.  I can believe they thought it could be used for the purpose you described also and in addition to 60-day (optionally-extended) stays, though

 

In any case, this would not be the fault of those using it - so we should hear no more about denials until the change the rules/conditions for that visa's use, to match what they supposedly really wanted in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Using back to back METV's to stay months years is not a legitimate way to stay long term so we can't really complain when immigration say enough.

It is 100% legitimate to make several stays over as many years as desired.  There is no way to extend a stay past 90 days, though (97 if getting the "extension denied" at the end).  What immigration is doing to those with Tourist Visas, at only a few checkpoints, is unlawful and illegitimate.  But, since they are clearly not remotely accountable to the laws of the nation, all we can do is complain.

 

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

It doesn't matter how much the person has in their foreign bank. The underlying reason for the denial was the cumulative time spent in the country as a 'tourist' without jumping through the hoops required to prove their financial standing to get a long term visa/permit to stay.

There is nothing in immigration law about "cumulative time as a tourist," or any definition of "tourist" beyond what is not permitted (working and not having money).  The OP was not applying for a long-term permit to stay - just 60 days.  His bank-money was only an issue if they thought he would run out of money in the next 60-days.

 

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

It's not just about the funds for a future 60 day stay. That is simply wrong.

Why would anything else be of issue?  He is only going to get that much time with a Tourist Visa on entry.  Any more would require separate permission from immigration, determined at that later-date.

 

Quote

And the 20K is meant as pocket money, not the funds expected to fund a two month holiday. You're not going to get far on 333 baht per day!

I never said the 20K was enough for a full stay.  The 20K is an archaic rule kept on the books to be used as a "gotcha" for people who think it's not 1975 any more at the Thai Immigration checkpoint. 

 

The OP's bank-statement would have been relevant to a cursory investigation of his funds-status for a 60-day entry.  Such an inquiry would only would have been initiated (at a sane checkpoint) if they had reason to believe he was here to take a job, and/or was too poor to afford his stay.

 

Quote

Again... Section 12.2 effectively allows the IO to deny entry because the person has stayed in the country a long time without proving -- through normal channels -- their financial standing to continue that long stay.

The OP had just arrived to the country.  The fact he had been here before, living on money already spent, is not relevant.  There is No Law stating a person is limited in the way the IOs are suggesting in many, many reports.

Edited December 2, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, Gilsh said:

how about opening a company? then I will have a work permit and could enter freely, right?

Yes - assuming you need a work-permit, the business would need to hire 4 Thais, plus setup costs and 2M Baht registered capital.  I would strongly advise not to fake the capital, employees, etc - or jail, banning, etc are possible.  Don't believe any agent/lawyer who tells you "it's no problem" to do underhanded things, because it is the foreigner who will end up being thrown under the bus, if the plan goes sideways.

 

And unless that business is making money, it costs more than even the elite-visa.  Similar with the "get a work-permit" companies mentioned up-thread - very expensive per-month, especially iglu.  I am no fan of the elite, but even that is a "less bad" deal than those options.

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, balo said:

In Norway and Sweden we have a cashless society and even going to the kiosk to buy a hot dog you pay with the card or the smart phone.

Telling a tourist they need to bring 20k in cash will be looked upon as very weird and the tourist will never come back.  

Which is probably why they don’t, generally, tell ‘tourists’ that they need to bring 20K cash.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Only a fool relies on an ATM machine'

- ATM machines do go down and there have been system wide failures.

- Cards can be lost, or rendered inoperable

- Home banks can freeze cards.

Immigration has no way of knowing if the visitor actually has some money. Considering the number of threads in TVF, including this one, that discuss how to play the system, the immigration department's position is reasonable.

20,000 baht is an insignificant amount today, whether you wish to accept that or not and isn't even enough to cover a basic return fare change if someone is refused at the port of entry.

 

In respect to the OP's inquiry, encouraging him to play the ED visa game is wrong. This is not waht the ED visas were intended for, and the more people try to use them to circumvent the intent of the  visa rules, the more likely we will lose access to the ED visa altogether.  The OP should just get a proper long stay visa. He should also start paying his income taxes in Thailand as he is supposed to if he lives in Thailand for more than 6 months a year.

I agree with a lot of what you write, however, you only need to pay tax if you have a tax liability. Being in the country more than 180 days makes you resident for tax, but doesn’t automatically mean you have income tax to pay.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, jackdd said:

9 hours ago, Proboscis said:

I think that the message the Thai authorities are trying to send to all folks coming to Thailand is that tourism visas (and visa waivers) are for genuine tourists only.

If the Thai authorities wanted this they would simply change the official rules.

They don't change the official rules, so we can assume the Thai authorities don't want this, but it's just what some immigration officers at certain entry points want.

Would you like a list of all the rules/regulations that have been introduced or changed since 2006 to deliberately make it harder for long term tourism?

 

What you are probably implying is the lack of implementing fixed limits. They are clearly avoiding that because other methods are working, and so they don’t want to stop frequent short term tourism.

 

Every IO at every border is working to orders and, unless they are trying to scam money out of someone, they are denying entry based on those orders.

Edited December 2, 2018 by elviajero

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

You can start with the ED Visa, and stay the whole year with 3 additional extensions.  According to reports, it costs 3K to 5K baht "extra," paid through the school for each extension, to get the full 90-days per extension (attending student or not - though I recommend attending with proof that one did).  After a year, you must get a new Visa abroad.  Most language-courses will not exceed 18 months, unless you can find those offering more advanced courses.

Those are Ed-visas from Universities , language school ed Visas can only be extended once for 1900 Baht at an I.O.

  Then you have to leave Thailand after six months and come back and do the same again

[Ctkong]

On 12/1/2018 at 8:05 PM, DrJack54 said:

BTW. OP, why do you keep mentioning you have never stayed more than 9months in any given year. I am not familiar with that "law". I don't expect a response. Hasn't been any so far to any advice.

 Years ago, they checked and counted the number of days I entered Thailand.. I always stayed not more than 16 days a visit but visited almost every month. After counting, the IO told me next month I cannot enter because I had stayed more than 180 days in a 12 month period.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Those are Ed-visas from Universities , language school ed Visas can only be extended once for 1900 Baht at an I.O.

  Then you have to leave Thailand after six months and come back and do the same again

The university-ED extensions can be for a full-year per-extension. 

 

In the wake of the last so-called "crackdown" (i.e. "tea-money raise"), there was a change in hours per-week, which created a situation shorter stay-time per class - corresponding to the situation you have described. 

 

Extensions were also limited to 3 of 90-days duration each from the initial Visa (for language schools) - a change which is is still in-effect. 

 

But since that time, the class-hours have been (re)lowered in some areas, so that over a full-year can be obtained from one set of classes in a single-language at one school.  This still requires a new Visa for starting classes that continue into a 2nd year, though.

[DrJack54]

23 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

 Years ago, they checked and counted the number of days I entered Thailand.. I always stayed not more than 16 days a visit but visited almost every month. After counting, the IO told me next month I cannot enter because I had stayed more than 180 days in a 12 month period.

Think you can stop with first 2 words.

"Years ago....

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

 Years ago, they checked and counted the number of days I entered Thailand.. I always stayed not more than 16 days a visit but visited almost every month. After counting, the IO told me next month I cannot enter because I had stayed more than 180 days in a 12 month period.

There was a limiting-rule for Visa-Exempt entries at one time, which was "90 days in-country per 180 days."  That police-order was quashed by a subsequent one, which was quashed by the next one, etc.  The current rule en-force does not specify a "total days" for Visa-Exempts, but does put restrictions on their use.  These restrictions do not apply to Tourist Visas.

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, sanemax said:

 

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

The OP should just get a proper long stay visa. He should also start paying his income taxes in Thailand as he is supposed to if he lives in Thailand for more than 6 months a year

Going abroad every few months for a visa means that he hasnt stayed in Thailand for over six months continuously and even a yearly ed-visa , you have to usually leave Thailand before six months  and come back

It is the cumulative total that counts. You become tax resident once you’ve stayed in the country over 180 days in the tax year. It doesn’t have to be a continuous stay.

[poohy]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

The exchange bureaus are not there for the benefit of tourists that need 10/20K baht. They are there to make money off of stupid visitors that didn't make time to get hold of some Thai baht before getting on the plane.

Have you ever tried to buy or bought  THB in UK........ poorest rate imaginable 

 

Thats why people use ATMS!!

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, Elkski said:

Last week I flew into Don muang from a nearby country with maybe 15 k baht.  I'm 58 and have not stayed in Thailand excessively the past few years.  Longest is 60 days of 8 trips.  I have only used visa on entry, I am USA citizen.  Was I at this risk?   This is first time I traveled with less than 20 k because it is a risk.  Many hotels have no lock boxes, they have been shown to be worthless security devices anyway.  A money belt can give me a heat rash in the last place I want one and seems like a big red flag telling would be robbers to Target me.   

As long as you not trying to live in the country you shouldn’t have a problem. And if you’re entering under the visa exempt scheme you only need to carry 10K. It doesn’t have to be in baht. All or some could be USD or travellers cheques.

 

Profilling definitely comes into play and I doubt a 58 year old American coming and going will raise many concerns.

 

There is too much paranoia being created by a minority of people being pulled up for playing the system.

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

Just get a new passport with no stamps in it That should help a lot

That wouldn’t be any help at all getting past immigration as they see the full history of entries as soon as they swipe the passport and link it to the old one.

[edwardandtubs]

I may have missed this part but was the OP trying to get in with an METV issued in Israel or an SETV issued in Vietnam? If the latter then it's not unexpected that he was refused entry. If the former then it looks like a bit of an escalation.

Edited December 2, 2018 by edwardandtubs

[lkv]

6 hours ago, onera1961 said:

What those normal channels will be for someone with a tourist visa (like an elite visa)?

 

Exactly. They should take into account that some tourists that want to visit Thai temples for 20 years, may have been rich before they purchased Elite and poor after. ????

Edited December 2, 2018 by lkv

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, onera1961 said:

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

Again... Section 12.2 effectively allows the IO to deny entry because the person has stayed in the country a long time without proving -- through normal channels -- their financial standing to continue that long stay.

What those normal channels will be for someone with a tourist visa (like an elite visa)?

There are none. That's the point. You can't prove you have the means to stay long term as a tourist because staying long term as a tourist is not an option.

 

Long stay options have defined ways of proving your financial status. And you buy your way in with a PE visa.

[lkv]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

In that case, they made serious errors when they designed it.  To meet the description of what you are saying they intended to do, the rules for its use would be completely different than they are.  I can believe they thought it could be used for the purpose you described also and in addition to 60-day (optionally-extended) stays....

I agree with @elviajero. I am under the impression they designed the METV for the Asian market, primarily China, for them to have a better option than VOA and to come a few weekends in 6 months, even though the pricing ratio is ×5 to an SETV. You pay extra for convenience.

 

I don't think they designed it for the Western/other markets to jump into a plane to Vietnam in the morning and come back in the afternoon every 90 days, after extending each and every 60 day stay for a further 30 days, if that makes sense.

Edited December 2, 2018 by lkv

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, Caldera said:

That is, of course, just your personal opinion and you've consistently failed to back it up with anything official from either immigration headquarters or those overseeing them, whenever challenged.

 

Others are of the opinion that Thai officials generally have a tendency to make rules up as they see fit in what they consider their personal fiefdom, which explains why each immigration office and checkpoint is essentially a law unto itself.

The expulsion letter and stamp in the OP's passport prove what I am saying -- which is not my opinion -- but fact.

"No appropriate means of life living in Thailand". Not the best translation they could come up with, but by appropriate, in this case, they mean a job, cash in a Thai bank or a certified income. The ways that long term permission to stay is typically granted by immigration.

 

If you know better show me how someone can, as a tourist, demonstrate to immigration that they have the means to support their long term stay in the country that doesn't include waving a bank statement at the IO at the border. You won't be able to because it doesn't exist; because long term stay for tourism is not an option under the current visa/permit system.

 

You are conflating a genuine reason for denying entry with rules quoted by IO's that may or may not be based on orders from their bosses. Anyone trying to live long term as a tourist needs to understand that they stand the chance of coming up against an IO that will deny entry using whatever reason they can based on the underlying reason that the visitor has stayed to long for the purpose of tourism.

 

[alex8912]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The expulsion letter and stamp in the OP's passport prove what I am saying -- which is not my opinion -- but fact.

"No appropriate means of life living in Thailand". Not the best translation they could come up with, but by appropriate, in this case, they mean a job, cash in a Thai bank or a certified income. The ways that long term permission to stay is typically granted by immigration.

 

If you know better show me how someone can, as a tourist, demonstrate to immigration that they have the means to support their long term stay in the country that doesn't include waving a bank statement at the IO at the border. You won't be able to because it doesn't exist; because long term stay for tourism is not an option under the current visa/permit system.

 

You are conflating a genuine reason for denying entry with rules quoted by IO's that may or may not be based on orders from their bosses. Anyone trying to live long term as a tourist needs to understand that they stand the chance of coming up against an IO that will deny entry using whatever reason they can based on the underlying reason that the visitor has stayed to long for the purpose of tourism.

 

Okay. For one example $10,000USD CASH on you when you  arrive with your METV.OR a Thai bankbook with a lot of baht ( yes many yearly tourists have this)  An METV was not intended for Asian tourists convenience. That is almost a joke. Most nearby countries have no visa requirements to enter for 30 days or less anyways. The Chinese visa ON arrival is easy for them. The six month multiple entry tourist visa came about simply to replace the double and triple entry visas before it. They are for long or longer term tourists to have an option better than a 30 day exempt or 60 day single entry TV.   You have not once in this thread acknowledged this and have not responded to most of my questions either. Now you have said at least twice that there is no way to prove income at borders but before you said “ through proper channels “ but now you say there are NO proper channels. Don’t you find those statements COMPLETELY confusing ??? To the average poster ? 

 

[edwardandtubs]

1 hour ago, edwardandtubs said:

I may have missed this part but was the OP trying to get in with an METV issued in Israel or an SETV issued in Vietnam? If the latter then it's not unexpected that he was refused entry. If the former then it looks like a bit of an escalation.

Ok I see now it was an METV from Tel Aviv. Actually seems to back up other reports that after 3 or so METVs things get more difficult.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, Ctkong said:

 Years ago, they checked and counted the number of days I entered Thailand.. I always stayed not more than 16 days a visit but visited almost every month. After counting, the IO told me next month I cannot enter because I had stayed more than 180 days in a 12 month period.

That was a rule for visa exempt entry that limited us to a cumulative 90 days in any 180 day period. It was dropped because it was too much of a pain for the IO's to go through each passport to manually count days.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, poohy said:

8 hours ago, elviajero said:

The exchange bureaus are not there for the benefit of tourists that need 10/20K baht. They are there to make money off of stupid visitors that didn't make time to get hold of some Thai baht before getting on the plane.

Have you ever tried to buy or bought  THB in UK........ poorest rate imaginable 

 

Thats why people use ATMS!!

I know why people use ATM's, and that depending on the amounts being sent it can be a cheaper option. But most sensible 'TOURISTS' will travel with some local currency or exchangeable currency.

[lkv]

59 minutes ago, alex8912 said:

They are for long or longer term tourists to have an option better than a 30 day exempt or 60 day single entry TV.  

 

A METV allows the same permission of stay, of up to 60 days per entry, just like an SETV, the only difference being, it's multiple entry.

 

It has been designed for tourists to travel multiple times over its validity of 6 months.

 

Yes, those tourists that travel for leisure and return back to work in their home countries to make more money there.

 

That's why proof of employment is required in most places.

 

Who told you that METV was invented for the purpose of staying 60 days, extending 30 days, flying in out same day to get another 60 days, further extend that, and stretch it to 9 months?

 

Ah, the visa run agencies?

 

That's a different matter. They have been using funny terminology when they advised people how to use an METV "correctly".

 

Don't get me wrong, I am on SETVs myself that I am stretching sometimes, and I have spent more than 9 months this year on them, but let's not make it sound that they invented METV to give people an opportunity to spend 9 months in Thailand.

 

It's like saying a 10 year US tourist visa was designed for tourists to spend 10 years in the US.

Edited December 2, 2018 by lkv