Mass Exodus

[george]

Hey guys, if this country is supposed to be Paradise, where are you going then?

Are you sure you can leave [mentally]?

[soundman]

I moved here under sufferance. Once the decision was made I jumped in the deep end, not knowing much at all about the country. Basically sink or swim. I can certainly have a good rant about certain subjects that upset me here in thai, however, there are numerous subjects in my country of birth that I can complain about too.

I am content with the decision I made, will work hard to overcome all the obsticals in my path & make the best of what I have chosen.

Not leaving!!!

Good luck to all.

Soundman.

[bmanly]

Here in Hua Hin there doesn't seem to be a mass exodus underway. Unless, all tens of thousands of Swedes have come over just to help their last remaining countrymen pack up and load the crates for the airport.

I would have to agree with you here. I have been coming back for my 6 Months each year to Thailand for many years now and I see the the same old group of friends each time. Out of 50 or so long term farang residents that I know in Pattaya none of them have talked about leaving, in fact each year more new guys seem to turn up to settle pernamently.

[GuestHouse]

Hey guys, if this country is supposed to be Paradise, where are you going then?

Are you sure you can leave [mentally]?

Nowhere is paradise and I think while the question of whether individuals are prepared to leave [mentally], we perhaps might better say [emotionally] is valid, I think it should be recognized that the whole issue of even considering leaving Thailand arises only because of the recent changes to the welcome, treatment and regulations effecting foreigners in Thailand.

It is not the foreigners who are at fault for asking the question, they are after all considering their own welfare under circumstances in which they have few if any rights, perhaps few if any options.

It is precisely this which is defined within the term 'Confidence'.

I left Thailand for reasons relating to my career and family needs. We plan to return in the future, but I, like many others must consider the changes in Thailand and how they may impact our future. We can also consider other options.

Hey Ho! You might say, but what is true of me and my family, is also true of many others and is also true of businesses and business investors.

Edited February 19, 2007 by GuestHouse

[llso]

I was gone from LOS for quite a while last year. It is when I came back that the spell had been broken for me. When I was gone it wasn't the bars and drinking and fooling around that I missed . It wasn't puting up with all of the small annoyances that I used to be able to overlook. It wasn't Thai food , I cooked Thai all the time and hung around with Thais at a local Thai restaraunt. It was my wife and daughter that I missed.

I see so many Farang here that insulate themselves , living in their own little world that they have created. The magic has gone for me . So if I decide to return to my home country similar climate . Does that make me a Malcontent whining loser!? If i want a better life for my family, English education for my daughter, Opportunity for my wife working at a Thai restaraunt,earning a decent wage. I am relatively young 48 and have a job and home to go back to.

The winds of change are blowing and have been for some time now. A couple of years ago I would have done almost anything to continue staying here. If people want to stay here and stick there head in the sand and not see all of the changes and uncertainty for foreigners living here, up to them.

LL

[tijnebijn]

The comments are getting better and better.But I do not know but,maybe some guys seem to be psychic or something like that,but how you can say that things will change for worse in Thailand,maybe it will change to the better................After all some things are changed,but it is still not like impossible to stay here,just wait and see,I do not worrie that much,you can say i am one who sticks his head in the sand ,but I am not an Ostrich,sorry.

[Maestro]

I really do not see what the Visa situation has to do with it if one is married and has kids...nothing has changed or have I missed something?

The visa situation has changed a lot...also for married ones,now you have to make a 40k monthly income based on tax

The major change on October 1, 2006 was indeed for foreigners younger than 50 years and married to a Thai wife who are new applicants for extension of stay.

Now, the foreigner can obtain an annual extension with average monthly family income of 40,000 Baht. This means he can live here based on his wife’s income, if this is his family situation.

Before, if the foreigner was not employed in Thailand and did not have a certain minimum salary, he had to bring in 400k from abroad for a start, spend some of it to support his family, and then every year top it up again to that amount.

--

Maestro

[PeaceBlondie]

Hey guys, if this country is supposed to be Paradise, where are you going then?

Are you sure you can leave [mentally]?

It's in the song lyrics. Don Henley wrote, "If they call some place 'paradise,' you'd better kiss that place goodbye." Joni Mitchell crooned, "they've paved paradise and put up a parking lot." Don Henley also wrote, "you can check out, but you can never leave."

[chiang mai]

I can't help but noiticing just having read the classified section on TV that there are a lot of people who are leaving LOS. Myself included after 6 years. I see on this and other web boards the same thing that many of us for whatever reason have decided that it is time to move on.

For me the decision started about a year ago when I began the Visa process for my Thai wife. As I stated before for me it was a combination of failed business, A young child,so education concerns. Unfavorable exchange rates and the current Visa and business climate.

LL

but I thought the statistics for work permits issued had increased ? on top of that we now have

the Russians with visa free status so even if people are leaving as you say I'm sure there will be

replacements ?

Hence the drive for 'quality' tourists.

Okay so that was tongue in cheek and that's okay but look at the reality of the statement for a second. I'm much in favor of Thailand getting read of the foreigners who break the rules and live an extended holiday, And that leaves what, the fairly wealthy and the very wealthy. If the remaining "middle class" that has been here for some years aren't comfortable with the change in direction of the culture, the economy and the politics, how can the better quality tourists be so.

[LoveDaBlues]

Well, I think this question of staying/leaving largely comes down to age and family status. I'm 50 so I don't have any major visa hassles (retirement visa). If I weren't 50 the visa runs could get old pretty fast and I might be inclined to leave. Also, I don't have/want any children. If I had kids I would want them to get a better education than I have seen offered in Thailand.

For me I enjoy my life here in Thailand more than what I left in the states. My life in the states was good. But here I've learned to relax more and not worry so much about getting things done NOW.

Also, it doesn't hurt having a brown-skinned 26yo to curl up with every night......

[jasreeve17]

I'm certainly not leaving too. Those who are leaving probably came because they were malcontents in their homelands too (let's face it, Thailand attracts them), and now the world isnt working out for them here, they'll go somewhere else to whine and complain.

You can run away from a place, but not from yourself.

I do like to stereotype and generalize, one of my skills. But, Bendix, you are "the man" in this department. Thread after thread of sweeping statements - it's a joy to read, and to know that I'm learning from a master.

[TAWP]

but I thought the statistics for work permits issued had increased ? on top of that we now have

the Russians with visa free status so even if people are leaving as you say I'm sure there will be

replacements ?

Don't make an oversight on the fact that the altered VISA-rules and feeling of 'heavier enforcement' in some areas will lead to an increase in WPs (and VISAa) due to backtoback30day-ppl going legit.

Heck, perhaps even some of the many diver-instructors in every tourist-location found a way...

So there could be a net-loss in longtime foreigners in the close future and we would still struggle to exactly trace it in the statistics.

In anyway, since I didn't come here for the sun, warmth or nice sights, I'm not planning to go anywhere soon...unless new rules force me out.

Edited February 19, 2007 by TAWP

[borracho]

32 baht to the dollar today!. Definitely time to panic. Sell everything at half price and run home where everything still costs double! Yes this would be sound advice me thinks.

[lannarebirth]

The omly people I have heard about, who have left, were people who could not afford to live here. I imagine that when they can, that they will return.

Unless there's a violent uprising aimed at all farang in residence here, I can't see myself leaving, ever. And then only till it blows over.

[qwertz]

All this gloom is unsettling me. I'm not even there yet. IYHO, do you think LOS might hang together until September or would it be prudent to start looking at Nam already?

[bendix]

I do like to stereotype and generalize, one of my skills. But, Bendix, you are "the man" in this department. Thread after thread of sweeping statements - it's a joy to read, and to know that I'm learning from a master.

I know. I know.

They're a joy to read, aren't they? Frankly, I don't know where all this great material comes from :-)

[bkkandrew]

I do like to stereotype and generalize, one of my skills. But, Bendix, you are "the man" in this department. Thread after thread of sweeping statements - it's a joy to read, and to know that I'm learning from a master.

I know. I know.

They're a joy to read, aren't they? Frankly, I don't know where all this great material comes from :-)

Usually your a*se...

[Casanundra]

If one thing in life is certain, besides death and taxes, is that change happens. You may be sitting on your smug throne today, but you can be sure that things may change for you tommorrow. Let me give you a few examples.

One guy I know has lived in LOS for over 20 years. He too had for many years a self smug attitude because he also managed to get his BOI visa to set up a business here and continued to do so year after year. I don't know about you but 20 years is no short time to commit to LOS but he too will be baling out soon because someone in Thailand has decided under the premise of the Foreign Business Act to pull his BOI visa. He has a wife and two beautiful daughters and has contributed to Thailand for 2 decades and continues to do so. He earns enough for his family to overcome the marriage visa regulations but hasn't enough spare cash to do a retirement visa because the recent strength of the Thai baht is now also having a major impact on his business.

So here we have a guy, committed to Thailand for 20 years and Thailand thanks him by making it tougher for him to stay and without the BOI he will have to cash in and move on. What happened to his lifestyle dream? It's a long story to go into but he is effectively a man without a country now to call his own because Thailand "is his home" and at the age of 60 he should be looking to relax not worry about where he may have to live next.

Different country, similar theme. In Indonesia last year an elderly lady of 75 who had been married to an Indonesian man for 30 years and who had a home together in Jakarta was told after the death of her husband that due to the property laws in indonesia that she now had 1 year to sell her house and get out of the country and go back home to England. What happened to her paradise? She thought she was at home and at 75 the last thing she needed was to be going back to a country she didn't know anymore.

Yes paradise is wonderful right up to the point when the game plan changes. Under the current rules, a guy with say 8 million baht in the bank can come here and live the dream. That money if invested would give him say 18 to 20 years here if he was being frugal and doesn't sink half of it into a Condo. That takes a guy aged 40 up to the age of say 58. Great! But what if this healthy stress free living in Thailand has been so good that he continues to go on and lives to be 78? That's another 20 years of effectively having no money coming in, and that's assuming of course the game plan hasn't been changed by the Thai's in the meantime. OK so he could get a job as an English teacher or run a bar or scuba dive centre or whatever to keep him ticking along but how many 'really' want to give up the West to step on the tread mill again for a lot less money and lets face it, money making schemes are increasingly getting thinner on the ground to the average Joe and you can thank the new FBA for that.

Let's look at retirement. To retire here you currently need 800k in the bank and to be at least 50 years old. That basically puts all those aged under 50 who have retired early at a disadvantage. Also don't forget, that this is under the current rules. What happens when in say 1 year’s time this becomes 1.5 million or even more as a requirement to retire and let's not forget that this money has to be available in the bank year after year after year until you die!

I now tell people who want to retire here that they need at least 14 million baht as a minimum. I believe that if you cannot muster that much together then don't retire in LOS or even consider coming here long term as the game plan will come and catch you out at some point in the future. Look around you, the evidence of this is here and now, you can see it happening everywhere and I know far too many stories of guys being dropped in it to recite them all here since the new visa rules kicked in.

In my job (I am not a teacher) I am reasonably protected in terms of stability and visa and WP in Thailand because my bosses are in the position to be influential. Some of them are even members of the new constitution drafting committee and so I get to hear things I necessary don't want to hear and I have adopted a sort of Ostrich affect in my daily dealings here in Thailand lest I go mad thinking about some of the hair brained schemes they are cooking up. I could always leave my job of course but then its back to being generally bored again. Besides I am too young to retire and will need to wait another 10 years for that under the current rules in LOS.

Change however is very much in the air at the moment and if the ostriches think that things aren't going to get worse then that's fine by me because we are all allowed our opinions. In many ways I can actually say congratulations to you because you have managed to adopt a rather Thai style of behaving because what you cannot see cannot be happening right?

LOS for many is changing quickly and paradise is quickly losing itself here in Thailand and as one of those who likes to look up and look around occasionally, I can now see far better places to go to at the moment. My advice, especially to those under 50, is that if you have the education, the money and the talent to move on then move on while you can. You should be making hay while the sun still shines and LOS will still be here to come back to when you have that 20 million in your pocket to retire with later on. Who knows you may get to see some of the ostriches walking the other way as you re-enter with their forlorn looks of dismay after realising that their time in paradise has just come to a rather sticky end due to yet more changes that have just been imposed on them.

I'll see you all in 10 years.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Casanundra

[kmart]

Good post, Casanundra. ^^

As someone who is of an age when I have to start thinking about retirement plans myself; I need rigid goalposts to factor into my plans. And not flaky, half-arsed, nationalistic cant.

[solo siam]

I don't know anyone who has or is thinking about leaving, lots of people who would like to come here and live though.

[tijnebijn]

no matter what people say,or what changes there may come.How in hel_l can they make people who have familys to take care,and with a not so big budget can manage pretty well and are happy,to force them to leave the country??

Can they be so immoral?To let your family behind,in a rural area you do not need to make 50k a month,the half of it is very hard to make allready and is enough to do with.I can be an Ostrich,or whatsoever,I still cannot believe they will make things worse,maybe for people who want to do business on business purposes,the 800k for retires?I think they help the economy a lot,why they should want to avoid them??

If it will go like that,it will be the most stupidos thing I have ever heared of,and then it will be also not better to stay here anyway,cause it will be a junta kind of stay .You are pretty right how you point things,and for sure can tell this in a much better way then I do,but I think that how you think,how you make things believe how they are,are only the reality how you interpretate that yourself,so if I think positive my reality will be in a different vieuw,and will not see everything in a doom scenario.

I just cannot believe it will go like that for worse.

[jumnien]

What a beautiful morning flying south down the coast at 300 feet off the water! Things are getting better and better each day here in the Kingdom! Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy my brothers and sisters. We are truly lucky souls!

[appleman_thai]

Casanumndra,

Great post.

I am leaving after almost 6 yrs. I worked as an Expat for 5 years and tried early retirement - i am 36 now.

It didnt work out. I got bored. Its not all its cracked up to be. Add to that all the visa changes, FBA, exchange rate, Coup, Nominee Companies etc etc

I am going back to Ireland to see if I can settle back into things there and make some more money. I will also be open to opportunities to work in other parts of the world.

I have loved my time here but its going to go through a bad patch and I dont have to be around for that.

One thing is for sure, I dont have to worry about where to go when I retire....... SE Asia for sure - maybe not even Thailand.

[terry57]

The comments are getting better and better.But I do not know but,maybe some guys seem to be psychic or something like that,but how you can say that things will change for worse in Thailand,maybe it will change to the better................After all some things are changed,but it is still not like impossible to stay here,just wait and see,I do not worrie that much,you can say i am one who sticks his head in the sand ,but I am not an Ostrich,sorry.

oh god forbid,

how could you ever think things could get better.?

of course this is the case with thailand, where laws are changed and then repealed .

some people feel they are psychic and only deal with a negative mind set and out look.

as some posters have pointed out there are many people never considering leaving and more they know coming.

terence

[bkkmick]

I keep reading people saying that they are leaving to "get a better education for their kids". What's this all about? I send my two to an international school that operates the British curriculum. Surely they should be receiving as good (if not better, based on my memories from school) an education as they would back home.

I know teachers in UK/Ireland and here in Thailand and they're all equally piss heads (at least those who drink) so that's no excuse.

[bkkandrew]

Good post, Casanundra. ^^

As someone who is of an age when I have to start thinking about retirement plans myself; I need rigid goalposts to factor into my plans. And not flaky, half-arsed, nationalistic cant.

I could not think of any better way to put it!!

[Dupont]

Good post, Casanundra. ^^

As someone who is of an age when I have to start thinking about retirement plans myself; I need rigid goalposts to factor into my plans. And not flaky, half-arsed, nationalistic cant.

What about "far better to have loved and lost, than not have loved at all!"

I'd say 20 years of living in paradise is 20 more than the vast majority of the worlds population ever achieve.

I've had 15 years here and am certainly planning on staying. If (and I feel it unlikely) it goes tits up here, so what? Many of my school friends are dead through drink drugs etc, and i can't think of one that has a lifestyle that comes near to mine.

Being positive or negative doesn't alter the outcome, it just eases the ride. Enjoy it while it lasts, who knows, it may never end in our lifetime!

Count me as staying.

[tartempion]

I'm certainly not leaving too. Those who are leaving probably came because they were malcontents in their homelands too (let's face it, Thailand attracts them), and now the world isnt working out for them here, they'll go somewhere else to whine and complain.

You can run away from a place, but not from yourself.

Jeez, what a mentality you have

I am staying in this land full of idiots, but two of my acquaintances are leaving also, your stupid comments set apart....

[cnmltd]

It would be interesting to see the true stats if they were available as all we seem to hear are from the voices of those that are leaving.

From my perspective, I have lived in Thailand for 8 years, I'm married and am not going anywhere and still very happy ... this sentiment is echoed amongst all my many non Thai friends who live here, are happy and are not leaving either.

The wilderbeast are making a lot of noise as they migrate but the gazelles are quietly grazing in the background.

I guess I'm a gazelle, too. I have been living in the Isaan for 15 years, still grazing.

Me too. Been here 7 years, happily married ( to a Thai ) with a wonderful son

and intend to graze for many years to come. God willing.

[cnmltd]

I live in farang land.

All the sh*t you chaps ran away from is still here. But 100 times worse.

By all means come back, for a few weeks, and have a look for yourselves. Then go back 'home'.

Absolutely right. The grass is always greener ect.