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Rejecting suggestions of delay, UK PM May's team says Brexit vote will go ahead

By Kylie MacLellan and Elizabeth Piper

 

Britain's Prime Minister Theresa May addresses the media during the G20 Leaders Summit in Buenos Aires, Argentina December 1, 2018. REUTERS/Carlos Garcia Rawlins

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Parliament's vote on Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit deal will go ahead on Dec. 11, her office said on Thursday, rejecting suggestions from lawmakers that she should seek ways to avoid a defeat so big it might bring down the government.

 

May has been trying to win over critics of an agreement that would keep close economic ties with the European Union when Britain leaves in March, but her warnings that it's her deal, no deal or no Brexit have fallen flat so far.

 

With parliament mid-way through a five-day debate on the Brexit deal before the vote on Tuesday which will define Britain's departure from the EU and could determine May's future as leader, she looks set to lose the vote.

 

A defeat could open up a series of different outcomes to Britain's departure from the EU, the country's biggest shift in trade and foreign policy for more than 40 years, ranging from leaving without the deal to holding a second referendum on membership.

 

The Times newspaper reported that senior ministers were urging May to delay the vote for fear of a rout and several lawmakers said they suspected the government may try something to postpone what would be a game-changing defeat.

 

"The vote will take place on Tuesday as planned," May's spokeswoman said. The House of Commons leader, Andrea Leadsom, also told parliament the vote would go ahead on Dec. 11.

 

Graham Brady, chair of the so-called 1922 committee which represents Conservative lawmakers, said he would welcome a delay to the vote to help May provide clarity over one of the most contentious parts of her plan - the Northern Irish backstop.

 

But any such delay would anger lawmakers. Both opponents and allies alike have spent days criticising the agreement, especially the backstop, intended to ensure there is no return to a hard border between British-ruled Northern Ireland and EU-member Ireland.

 

Brexit supporters and May's nominal allies in Northern Ireland's Democratic Unionist Party say it could leave Britain forced to accept EU regulations indefinitely, or Northern Ireland treated differently from the rest of the United Kingdom.

 

EU supporters say Britain would become little more than a rule-taker, offering the worst of all worlds.

 

Many want to see the government lose on Tuesday.

 

CHANGE THE DEAL

Some lawmakers have called on May to change the deal, and have suggested she could use an EU summit next week to try to win some concessions from officials to try to ease some of their concerns.

 

But EU negotiator Michel Barnier said on Thursday the deal was the best Britain will get, while British finance minister Philip Hammond said it was "simply a delusion" to think the agreement could be renegotiated if parliament rejects it.

 

May has toured the country and television studios to try to sell her deal, and on Thursday she used an interview on BBC radio to press on with her bid to persuade lawmakers to back her deal.

 

"There are three options: one is to leave the European Union with a deal ... the other two are that we leave without a deal or that we have no Brexit at all," she said.

 

In one potential concession, May said that she recognised there were concerns among lawmakers about the Northern Irish backstop and that she was looking at whether parliament could be given a greater role in deciding whether to trigger it.

 

"I am talking to colleagues about how we can look at parliament having a role in going into that and, if you like, coming out of that," she said.

 

But some of her allies say she needs more time, with Brady telling Sky News: "I don't think there's any point in ploughing ahead and losing the vote heavily."

 

"If the prime minister asked for a few days I'm sure the House of Commons would be happy to give the prime minister a few more days.

 

Most members of parliament are keen to make progress on this and to do so in a sensible way."

 

But experts say delaying the vote may not be so easy.

 

"It is difficult for the government to avoid a vote without the agreement of the House (of Commons) now that the debate is up and running," said Hannah White, deputy director of the Institute for Government.

 

"But the whips (party enforcers) may be hunting in the procedural toolbox for ways to do this."

 

(Additional reporting by William James in London and Alastair Macdonald in Brussels; Editing by Guy Faulconbridge and Janet Lawrence)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-12-07

[MRToMRT]

Sadly this whole sad sorry situation is now not about a deal (good or bad) as Labour see it as their chance to take power so will do nothing conciliatory. Theres a similar group in the Tories who see it just as a way of increasing their personal power. Meanwhile the EU will not make any concessions, in part because Labour is now promising a second referendum as part of the election grab ploy - a second referendum would see a "remain" vote surely after all this, thats best option for EU.

 

Those here dependent on pounds should brace for a more frugal new year whichever way this goes. 

 

 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

Sadly this whole sad sorry situation is now not about a deal (good or bad) as Labour see it as their chance to take power so will do nothing conciliatory. Theres a similar group in the Tories who see it just as a way of increasing their personal power. Meanwhile the EU will not make any concessions, in part because Labour is now promising a second referendum as part of the election grab ploy - a second referendum would see a "remain" vote surely after all this, thats best option for EU.

 

Those here dependent on pounds should brace for a more frugal new year whichever way this goes. 

 

 

Agree in the main, however IMO only leaving with a no-deal would adversely affect the pound, going into 2019. It is unlikely that parliament would ever sanction that option.

 

The financial markets have built in a Brexit outcome and if May's deal is passed then it's a stable situation and IMO the pound would probably strengthen a little. Other outcomes will in the short term (until parliament agrees on a course of action including a general election, or a peoples vote, or a renunciation of Article 50) be unstable situations and IMO the pound would likely weaken a little.

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

Sadly this whole sad sorry situation is now not about a deal (good or bad) as Labour see it as their chance to take power so will do nothing conciliatory. Theres a similar group in the Tories who see it just as a way of increasing their personal power. Meanwhile the EU will not make any concessions, in part because Labour is now promising a second referendum as part of the election grab ploy - a second referendum would see a "remain" vote surely after all this, thats best option for EU.

 

Those here dependent on pounds should brace for a more frugal new year whichever way this goes. 

 

 

Promising the impossible - all the benefits and none of the the negative effects, was a perfect starting place on this sad road. This was compounded by the utter inadequacy of the largely self serving Tory leaders whose pathetic mismanagement, has made a huge contribution to bringing about this "sorry situation" as you correctly describe it. Labour have been crippled by having a "Dead man's hand" at the tiller. The rational members of the party have eventually forced the  leadership to face up to the fact that 1) It is highly unlikely that the Tories will grant them another election, and 2) c.80% of the Messiah's young supporters in Momentum want a second vote. I suspect this has caused the change of track for Labour. I don't see it as an election grab ploy.

[evadgib]

Two points stood out during a media sweep this morning:

 

- May loses next week & returns to Europe to find that there is an alternative on offer from them after all, or

- UK hold a three pronged 2nd neverendum; The prongs being 'Mays deal', 'Crash out' or 'Stay in', any of which would place months or years on the current fiasco.

 

As usual HMG don't seem to know whether they've followed through or simply farted.

 

Edit: ITV news at 10 reported on the chief whip's office last night ...but he didn't seem in Norman Tebbit's league!

Edited December 7, 2018 by evadgib

[evadgib]

@Chomper Higgot What has confused you this time and why are you serially stalking my posts with that ridiculous emoji? If you don't agree why not enhance the threads with wit or humour to support you own view, or if B-B-Brexiters really get up your nose that badly reach for the ol' 'in Emergency break glass'...?

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by evadgib

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, evadgib said:

@Chomper Higgot What has confused you this time and why are you serially stalking my posts with that ridiculous emoji? If you don't agree why not ignore and move on?

He's not stalking you - he gives the same emoji response to nearly all posts that express an opinion different to his own.

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

He's not stalking you - he gives the same emoji response to nearly all posts that express an opinion different to his own.

...a poor man's Grouse ????

[bristolboy]

52 minutes ago, evadgib said:

@Chomper Higgot What has confused you this time and why are you serially stalking my posts with that ridiculous emoji? If you don't agree why not enhance the threads with wit or humour to support you own view, or if B-B-Brexiters really get up your nose that badly reach for the ol' 'in Emergency break glass'...?

 

 

This post brings a certain meteorological phenomenon to mind.

[dunroaming]

8 hours ago, MRToMRT said:

Sadly this whole sad sorry situation is now not about a deal (good or bad) as Labour see it as their chance to take power so will do nothing conciliatory. Theres a similar group in the Tories who see it just as a way of increasing their personal power. Meanwhile the EU will not make any concessions, in part because Labour is now promising a second referendum as part of the election grab ploy - a second referendum would see a "remain" vote surely after all this, thats best option for EU.

 

Those here dependent on pounds should brace for a more frugal new year whichever way this goes. 

 

 

Not sure I can agree with all of that.  May's deal is probably better for the EU than Britain remaining in.  We are still paying in plus a huge cash payment and with no say in what goes on. 

 

Also if May's deal does go through the pound should strengthen as businesses will like (most of) it.  Likewise if Brexit was scrapped then the pound will soar!

 

As always with Brexit, nothing is clear or straightforward. 

[Thingamabob]

Just leave. EU us a degenerating disaster.

[Nigel Garvie]

23 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Just leave. EU us a degenerating disaster.

Many people appear to believe, that a significant proportion of the leave voters are degenerating disasters.

[Odysseus123]

Gawd..another Brexit thread.

 

Something to do with their potty training,one would expect.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Odysseus123

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

This post brings a certain meteorological phenomenon to mind.

Can you explain what you mean there?

[stag4]

Many people appear to believe, that a significant proportion of the leave voters are degenerating disasters.

 

 

Oh!

What proportion of the 17.4 million who voted to take back control of their laws, borders and money would that be?

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, stag4 said:

Many people appear to believe, that a significant proportion of the leave voters are degenerating disasters.

 

 

Oh!

What proportion of the 17.4 million who voted to take back control of their laws, borders and money would that be?

That's what they voted for and that is right and proper.  Unfortunately that was never actually what they were going to get because it was all spin by the leave campaigners who were out to get rid of Cameron.  Job done for them but it has opened up an enormous can of worms for the rest of us.

 

Stupid of Cameron to expect people to be able to understand the difficulties and complexity of Brexit and sanction a referendum in the first place.  The whole thing has spectacularly backfired though on all the politicians involved.  

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, stag4 said:

Many people appear to believe, that a significant proportion of the leave voters are degenerating disasters.

 

 

Oh!

What proportion of the 17.4 million who voted to take back control of their laws, borders and money would that be?

A significant proportion

[stag4]

52 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

A significant proportion

So in other words you don't know and just made it up to suit your remainer agenda!

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, dunroaming said:

That's what they voted for and that is right and proper.  Unfortunately that was never actually what they were going to get because it was all spin by the leave campaigners who were out to get rid of Cameron.  Job done for them but it has opened up an enormous can of worms for the rest of us.

 

Stupid of Cameron to expect people to be able to understand the difficulties and complexity of Brexit and sanction a referendum in the first place.  The whole thing has spectacularly backfired though on all the politicians involved.  

The vote was not about Cameron or getting him out.

[tebee]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The vote was not about Cameron or getting him out.

The vote was a farce!

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

The vote was a farce!

I thought it was great.

[JAG]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

The vote was a farce!

Of course it was, it didn't go the way that the remain  camp wished.

 

And that is at the absolute centre of the argument. Nationally, where Mrs May and her government are determined to somehow effectively remain in the EU, at the price of becoming a vassal of the EU. Through so many levels, as reflected here, where many of the remain camp simply refuse to accept the result.

 

You forget, the vote resulted in a majority who wished to leave. Not a big majority, but a clear majority. To frustrate that wish shows contempt for democracy and for those that voted. Whether you argue that they didn't know what they were voting for (arrogance), that their demographics means that leavers are dieing off more quickly than the remainers ( risible and contemptible) or that the leave campaign operated on false premises and duped the voters (contempt and arrogance).

 

Spin it whichever way you like, "tebee" and friends, you simply cannot accept the decision, and are prepared to countenance an absolute betrayal of the countries democratic decision to get your way .

 

A referendum was held, on a very simple question, stay or leave. It was made absolutely clear, by the government which brought forward the legislation to enable it to be held, that whilst constitutionally it was not binding, it's result would be adhered to. Mrs May and her ministers were members of that government as I recall. A majority voted leave. We should leave.

Edited December 8, 2018 by JAG

[vogie]

3 hours ago, tebee said:

The vote was a farce!

The vote wasn't a farce, it was a democratic vote, whether it will be respected by Parliament is another story, but please don't say it was a farce because it didn't go tebees way. The attitude of remainers will destroy their cause, take a look at Alistair Campbell, a typical remainer and he does remind me of some posters on here.

 

 

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

The vote wasn't a farce, it was a democratic vote, whether it will be respected by Parliament is another story, but please don't say it was a farce because it didn't go tebees way. The attitude of remainers will destroy their cause, take a look at Alistair Campbell, a typical remainer and he does remind me of some posters on here.

 

 

Sorry, I just can't stand to listen to that annoying grot rant again!  

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

Of course it was, it didn't go the way that the remain  camp wished.

 

And that is at the absolute centre of the argument. Nationally, where Mrs May and her government are determined to somehow effectively remain in the EU, at the price of becoming a vassal of the EU. Through so many levels, as reflected here, where many of the remain camp simply refuse to accept the result.

 

You forget, the vote resulted in a majority who wished to leave. Not a big majority, but a clear majority. To frustrate that wish shows contempt for democracy and for those that voted. Whether you argue that they didn't know what they were voting for (arrogance), that their demographics means that leavers are dieing off more quickly than the remainers ( risible and contemptible) or that the leave campaign operated on false premises and duped the voters (contempt and arrogance).

 

Spin it whichever way you like, "tebee" and friends, you simply cannot accept the decision, and are prepared to countenance an absolute betrayal of the countries democratic decision to get your way .

 

A referendum was held, on a very simple question, stay or leave. It was made absolutely clear, by the government which brought forward the legislation to enable it to be held, that whilst constitutionally it was not binding, it's result would be adhered to. Mrs May and her ministers were members of that government as I recall. A majority voted leave. We should leave.

This is probably the best post I have read on the situation since day one. Sadly the usual culprits will toddle along shortly to continue muddying the waters...

Edited December 8, 2018 by evadgib

[Nigel Garvie]

11 hours ago, stag4 said:

So in other words you don't know and just made it up to suit your remainer agenda!

Look - what I wrote was in response to the post which described the EU as a degenerating disaster (A better description of the UK at the moment). I simply played the ball back with interest by relating it to Leavers rather than the EU, it was tongue in cheek. However I must congratulate your doctors on the complete success of your sense of humor bypass operation.

[Basil B]

Yesterday morning TM was on Radio 4 breakfast program, being interviewed by John Humphrys, 3 times he asked her if the option of postponing Tuesdays vote was being considered, 3 time she gave an evasive unclear answer...

 

It is the weekend and most MP's will have gone home to their respective constituencies, I doubt they will get chance to put up their Christmas decorations with Party Chairman's, members, constituents and just every "Tom, Dick & Harry" wanting to bend their ear, so Monday the whips will be doing a recount, and more probably by Monday evening TM will be conceding and putting it to the people in the form of a referendum.

 

Also topping the news Monday will be the ECJ ruling on revoking Article 50...

 

I hope if she does go for a Referendum she calls for a quick one, no months of "Bull S#!t", I am sure everyone is clear on how they intend to vote... 

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

 

You forget, the vote resulted in a majority who wished to leave. Not a big majority, but a clear majority. To frustrate that wish shows contempt for democracy and for those that voted. Whether you argue that they didn't know what they were voting for (arrogance), that their demographics means that leavers are dieing off more quickly than the remainers ( risible and contemptible) or that the leave campaign operated on false premises and duped the voters (contempt and arrogance).

The vote did not say HOW, WHEN, or ON WHAT TERMS we would leave. That had to be left to the government to negotiate, the referendum didn't ask what sort of trade deal/s we should make for example. Now we know what the terms are we have choices:- an Economy destroying Hard Brexit, May's deal, or Remain, and I suppose the possibility of Norway + or whatever. That decision is up to Parliament in the first instance. These are just facts as I see it.

 

I would take issue with your characterization of Remainers views on leavers as being arrogant.

1) It would be the first time ever if all the voters DID know what they were voting for.

2)  "Demographics means that leavers are dying off more quickly than the remainers". It has been established in many surveys that a higher proportion of older people voted leave, and for younger voters it was the opposite (Also true of Tory voters, and Labour voters as it happens). Older people tend to live for a shorter time than younger people. QED. Just facts, nothing contemptible about it.

3)  "The leave campaign operated on false premises and duped the voters (contempt and arrogance)". I haven't a clue what the "False premises" bit is about. The Leave campaign certainly told a number of lies, and made false assertions, as did the Remain campaign. I wouldn't want to suggest that you are being precious, but there has probably never been an election in history, in which at least a proportion of the electorate weren't duped. Hardly showing contempt or arrogance to say so. The ability to dupe voters is one of the most basic requirements for being a politician.

[evadgib]

On 12/7/2018 at 11:48 AM, bristolboy said:

This post brings a certain meteorological phenomenon to mind.

....still empty this morning? ????