Latest from USA Embassy as of 14 December

[Internatltraveler]

I went to the USA Embassy for my final letter of income verification on the December 14th. I confronted the agent who was notarizing my letter about the embassy stopping the issue of these letters for us and here is a summary of my conversation:

She stated that the US Embassy had made the decision to stop this pratice (we all knew that already)

I asked the reason.

She said it was a decision that the embassy had made.

I then stated that what was published was in fact incorrect about not being able to verify government issued pensions. She defended it of course and I stated that out of the 8 countries I have lived in and had to go through immigration for visas in each of those countries requiring verification of income, the Family Support Units of those embassies had always had the capability of going online and verifying government issued benefits for anyone who received them from the USA. She said that the embassy does not do that, and I of course have factual information to the contrary of this, so when I presented that to her, she asked if I would like to talk to the manager and I replied "of course I would." I was sent to the private little room where they summoned manager to speak with me.

 

The person who came to talk with me was the Acting ACS Chief, Ms. Aja Setfanon. She basically told me what they had already published. I once again challenged her and she stated they could not go online to verify private records due to the privacy of information act. I explained I was an attorney from the USA and knew differently. All we have to do is to sign a waiver to permit whomever we choose to access our records, and she nodded in compliance. I then stated that she knew as well as I did that any embassy could verify any government documents at any time they needed to. She once again nodded in agreement. So then I asked why the embassy in Thailand had made the decision that they had. She plainly told me that it was their decision not to support the citizens because "it was not their responsibility to do so." Of course this response infuriated me but I had to keep my cools.

 

She said this embassy had made the decision and that was that. She did not state it was a decision of our State Department nor any other reason, simply it was a decision they made.

 

To me this sounds really fishy and somehow I believe there is more to the story than they are disclosing to the public, but there was no point in protesting further. Obviously she was just carrying out the orders of someone else, because that is who pays her pay check. It sruck me as to the lack of empathy when I brought up the point of how many USA citizens were relying on monthly pension payments to live abroad and how they could negatively impacted by this decision. She responded by saying "Well, you are the one who decided to live in Thailand."

 

So the whole story here simply does not make sense.

 

Factually, the Family Support Unit has been moved out of BKK to the Philippines and does not support us as well as it should, and that is another story, so without the support of the FSU here in BKK, they would have to receive verification from Manilla or get permission to go online locally to access our records, but the statement that it is "impossible for them to verify income sources anywhere" is an absolutely false.

 

I wonder if enough of us Americans petitioned the embassy or the State Department if we could get a better conclusion to this story, or if there is something politically going on here that has forced them into this kind of conclusion.

 

Ms. Stafanon did tell me that if any immigration office was not in compliance with the Immigration Police Guidelines and we told her about it, that they would make contact with that immigration office and request that they follow their own guidelines correctly however, and follow up with the Thai government main immigration office of the problems with local IOs. She qualified that statement by saying that is all they can do though and that it was up to us to make the decision to live here or not.

 

This is a case that the only thing that may change this decision about these letters is for enough of us to file complaints about their decision so that they listen to us, but somehow I doubt enough of us are really serious about doing anything about it other than complaining...Apathy is strong among ex-pats when it comes to taking action, but we certainly can sit around and complain about it...if you take action then we may be able to have enough voices heard to do something constructive about it. 

 

Their email address in case you would like to be part of us who want to make a difference is: [email protected]; Twitter is: @ACSBKK; FAX is (+66) 02 205-4103

 

We CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE BUT ONLY IF WE MAKE OUR VOICES HEARD!

[swineninety9]

Let me put my conspiracy hat on for a second, but take a look at the two countries which have Embassies NOT verifying income letters: the US and UK. Which two countries globally are attempting to reduce immigration into their countries, US (Trump) and UK (Brexit).

 

In order to grow your economy you need a rising population. What is one way to increase your population and bring $$$ back into the country? Bring back retirees and Expats.

 

The fact of the matter is, anyone in the UN is a part of the Global migration pact, so their may be bureaucratic areas that have to roll back rules once your country withdraws from the global agreements.

[JLCrab]

So the above concern is whether the US Embassy Bangkok can certify US government pensions when the soon to be obsolete income affidavit mentioned any source of income from the US. Maybe they considered, even if they could certify only government pensions, it would unfair to all those who receive their income from US from other sources.

Edited December 18, 2018 by JLCrab

[ubonjoe]

31 minutes ago, Internatltraveler said:

Factually, the Family Support Unit has been moved out of BKK to the Philippines and does not support us as well as it should, and that is another story, so without the support of the FSU here in BKK, they would have to receive verification from Manilla or get permission to go online locally to access our records, but the statement that it is "impossible for them to verify income sources anywhere" is an absolutely false.

I think you are calling the SSA FBU a family support unit. I have never heard of a FSU.

From the embassy website. https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/social-security/

"If you are living in Thailand, you MUST contact the SSA Federal Benefits Unit (FBU) located in U.S. Embassy in Manila, Philippines directly."

The FBU has been in Manila for many years.

[fforest1]

To be honest I doubt there is even one person at the American Embassy who understands why the Income letter was withdrawn.....So its not fair to be hard on her....

 

There seems to be a visa tightening going on in many countries these days....Which would lead me to the conclusion that the orders for visa tightening are coming from a level above any government....

 

The why is open for debate.....The fact that its happening is not open for debate..

 

Certain worldwide immigration they are practically rolling out the red carpet for the immigrants... Like Mexicans into America or middle easterners into the Euro countries.....

But its plainly obvious they are not rolling out the red carpet for westerners to immigrate to Asia.... 

 

 

 

[koratkarlos]

As a US citizen I am required to pay US taxes.  It would be good for the government to acknowledge this and provide some level of service back to the citizens.  During my life I have witnessed the level of government service decrease as it feels that the purpose of our government has drifted away from public service.

[sqwakvfr]

“To be honest I doubt there is even one person at the American Embassy who understands why the Income letter was withdrawn.....So its not fair to be hard on her....”

 

That person might be Glyn T. Davies, He was US Ambassador to Thailand from 2015 to late September 2018.  The Email blast on the cessation of Income Affidavits was sent out on October 26, 2018.  I’m certain the decision to cease issuing the Affidavits was made much earlier.  

Edited December 18, 2018 by sqwakvfr
Grammar

[dddave]

I'm a US citizen.  In the ten years I've lived here on a retirement extension, the US Embassy has never been in the business of "verifying" the income of US citizens.  What is has done is to apply a notarial stamp to "affidavits of stated income", thus certifying that the individual submitting the affidavit has sworn before a designated witness that the statements of income within the affidavit are true.  There is no process now nor has there ever been a process that verified those statements.

It is, I think, safe to assume that the Thai Immigration Bureau was well aware that this system was abused by a substantial number of US citizens and that for many years, they looked the other way.  

That there is now a very broad crackdown on Immigration and visa abuses by the Thai Government is pretty obvious.  It would not surprise me at all if Thai Immigration and Interior ministry officials let various nations ambassadors know that they were unhappy with the situation and some accomodation was reached.

[marcus111]

Totally agree with dddave.

Abuse by getting income affidavits is I believe is wide spread. I do the 800k baht requirement every year as I like to be honest and in all honesty if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

Good to see the Thai authorities stopping the stupidity of these so called income letters.

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by marcus111

[bluebluewater]

555

So you "confronted" and then you "challenged" and then you whipped out your "I am an attorney from the USA" hat?  Dude, I don't feel a bit sorry for you.  I would have laughed you right out of the office.  I'll bet they are regaling themselves with the story of your visit over cocktails right now.

[fforest1]

6 hours ago, marcus111 said:

Totally agree with dddave.

Abuse by getting income affidavits is I believe is wide spread. I do the 800k baht requirement every year as I like to be honest and in all honesty if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

Good to see the Thai authorities stopping the stupidity of these so called income letters.

 

So you do the 800K to prove you are honest.....You want us to give you a gold star and a cookie to show how wonderful you are ?...... It gets really really boring to listen to people like yourself put down others because they used the 65,000 baht a month income method....It will be a sad day for you when you can not meet the ever changing goal posts for your 800k visa....

Edited December 18, 2018 by fforest1

[JLCrab]

21 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

So you want us to give you a gold star and a cookie to show how wonderful you are ?......

Depends what kinda cookie.

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, swineninety9 said:

Let me put my conspiracy hat on for a second, but take a look at the two countries which have Embassies NOT verifying income letters: the US and UK. Which two countries globally are attempting to reduce immigration into their countries, US (Trump) and UK (Brexit).

 

In order to grow your economy you need a rising population. What is one way to increase your population and bring $$$ back into the country? Bring back retirees and Expats.

 

The fact of the matter is, anyone in the UN is a part of the Global migration pact, so their may be bureaucratic areas that have to roll back rules once your country withdraws from the global agreements.

A rising population is needed to cover pyramid-schemes like social-security and "money created by loans at interest" banking (always more owed to pay back than exists, so need more loans ad-infinitum).  But, if those were replaced with sane alternatives (will have to happen, eventually), automation / tech / increased worker-efficiency plus an abundance of relatively-inexpensive energy can raise the standard of living of everyone - even faster with declining populations than with increasing ones.
 

As to motivations (or not) for our return,- from a USA perspective - I would not put it past governments to try to reel-in expats, in order to tax our spending, even though our old-age costs in-country (vs abroad) will far exceed those gains - just because that is how short-sighted their planning is.  But, on the other hand: 

• Most of those who returned would not be having children / expanding the population significantly. 
• If the govt wanted to save money, they would encourage the retired to live abroad, and pay for 1/10 health-insurance and lower drug costs (vs Medicaid costs in-country) and lower housing-costs. 
• The USA is still allowing well over 1-Million "legal" immigrants into the country each year, plus those pouring in illegally - now at record-levels thanks to empty-bluster and almost no workforce-enforcement; most of these having multiple "birthright citizenship" children. 
• Most expats, if they had to leave Thailand, would not go back to live within the territory we once knew as "The USA," so this policy-change in Thailand would not achieve the goal.

 

16 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Certain worldwide immigration they are practically rolling out the red carpet for the immigrants... Like Mexicans into America or middle easterners into the Euro countries.....

But its plainly obvious they are not rolling out the red carpet for westerners to immigrate to Asia....  

It is easy for Americans to live in most of Latin America, or Cambodia, The Philippines, or ... if we are going to throw out conspiracies, note the 1-year Tourist Visas for Vietnam that were negotiated by the USA.  Maybe they think our presence / spending would be more strategically useful there, than in Thailand, which may be cooling relations with the USA / West in general? 

[NanLaew]

19 hours ago, swineninety9 said:

Let me put my conspiracy hat on for a second, but take a look at the two countries which have Embassies NOT verifying income letters: the US and UK. Which two countries globally are attempting to reduce immigration into their countries, US (Trump) and UK (Brexit).

Where does Australia and Denmark, the other two nations withdrawing income letters, fit into your conspiracy theory?

[NanLaew]

7 hours ago, fforest1 said:

So you do the 800K to prove you are honest.....You want us to give you a gold star and a cookie to show how wonderful you are ?...... It gets really really boring to listen to people like yourself put down others because they used the 65,000 baht a month income method....It will be a sad day for you when you can not meet the ever changing goal posts for your 800k visa....

Why are your're panties showing?

 

The 800k (or 400k) in the bank has been the gold standard for income proof since they whole show kicked off. The proof of monthly income was never the 'easy alternative' and the income letters that were accepted... sorry, still being accepted by Thai Immigration (subject to full verification caveats) have been after-the-fact, bolt-ons to how the Immigration office assesses income. The lump-sum has thus always been the preferred method.

 

Nobody is putting you down or calling you on being dishonest so no need to get all riled up. Another member has simply and realistically suggested that the income letter, affidavit, statutory declaration, etc., has been one of the easiest ways to facilitate growing levels of dishonesty and fraud and ultimately break the otherwise quite acceptable immigration laws in Thailand. Yes, it's a huge inconvenience but it will ultimately make a certain demographic take stock of how precarious the funding of their lives in LOS can be and hopefully they come up with a viable work around. Better to find that out sooner than later.

[JLCrab]

41 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

the income letters that were accepted... sorry, still being accepted by Thai Immigration (subject to full verification caveats) have been after-the-fact, bolt-ons to how the Immigration office assesses income. The lump-sum has thus always been the preferred method.

If you look at the current Police Order at 2.22 it lists both the 800K baht in the bank method and the 'evidence' of 65K baht monthly income method with no preference shown for either method.

[Banana7]

Many existing visa/extension holders may not be aware of the change that numerous Embassies in Thailand will no longer issue "affidavits of stated income". What will happen to those uniformed of the change, who waited until their regular renewal time in 2019?. It will be a big shock realizing there will be no new "extension of stay", and they have missed the "seasoning period" for the 800K.

[garyk]

This is a Thai thing, other countries let you verify a letter of income form SS. It costs about 8 bucks.

Thai government wants the money in a Thai Bank. They are going to do everything they can to get it there at this point.

Who cares? it would be different if all the other countries that want expats did the same thing. But they don't!

Let them have their country, I say good ridden.

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

 

The 800k (or 400k) in the bank has been the gold standard for income proof since they whole show kicked off. The proof of monthly income was never the 'easy alternative' and the income letters that were accepted... sorry, still being accepted by Thai Immigration (subject to full verification caveats) have been after-the-fact, bolt-ons to how the Immigration office assesses income. The lump-sum has thus always been the preferred method.

 

Nobody is putting you down or calling you on being dishonest so no need to get all riled up. Another member has simply and realistically suggested that the income letter, affidavit, statutory declaration, etc., has been one of the easiest ways to facilitate growing levels of dishonesty and fraud and ultimately break the otherwise quite acceptable immigration laws in Thailand. Yes, it's a huge inconvenience but it will ultimately make a certain demographic take stock of how precarious the funding of their lives in LOS can be and hopefully they come up with a viable work around. Better to find that out sooner than later.

2

But it doesn't, and never has, shown proof of income. All it does is show a certain amount of money sitting in a bank account for a certain length of time that is available if needed.

 

In itself, it doesn't show you have an adequate income to actually live in Thailand.

 

The only way to prove that would be to prove you've used the 800k for living expenses throughout the year then replenish it every year, three months before your extension is due.

 

Either that or show you have a separate income you use for monthly expenses..........but then, in effect, you're using the 65/40k baht/ month income option.

 

Far from being 'The Gold Standard' on proof of income you're suggesting, it's used by many expats who haven't got an adequate income to qualify legally so they pay an agent to 'manipulate' the 800k baht option with backhanders to obtain their extension. 

[OJAS]

31 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

Many existing visa/extension holders may not be aware of the change that numerous Embassies in Thailand will no longer issue "affidavits of stated income". What will happen to those uniformed of the change, who waited until their regular renewal time in 2019?. It will be a big shock realizing there will be no new "extension of stay", and they have missed the "seasoning period" for the 800K.

In fairness to the American Embassy, I gather that they did inform those individuals who are enrolled with them under the State Department's STEP program (in all probability the majority of Americans living in LOS). On the other hand, the British Embassy have informed me that, in their view, the General Data Protection Regulation introduced last May prevented them from similarly notifying affected British nationals direct.

 

Don't know for certain what, if any, advance warning the Australian and Danish embassies provided to their nationals individually, however.

Edited December 19, 2018 by OJAS

[Jeffrey346]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think you are calling the SSA FBU a family support unit. I have never heard of a FSU.

From the embassy website. https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/social-security/

"If you are living in Thailand, you MUST contact the SSA Federal Benefits Unit (FBU) located in U.S. Embassy in Manila, Philippines directly."

The FBU has been in Manila for many years.

I have tried contacting the FBU via email numerous times.  Other than the automated response that states they will respond in  5 days... They never respond.

[DrJack54]

45 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

Many existing visa/extension holders may not be aware of the change that numerous Embassies in Thailand will no longer issue "affidavits of stated income". What will happen to those uniformed of the change, who waited until their regular renewal time in 2019?. It will be a big shock realizing there will be no new "extension of stay", and they have missed the "seasoning period" for the 800K.

I think this is very good point. Expats I sometimes run into, have never used Thaivisa. The Thai visa forum in particular keeps us up date with "changes". However as banana mentioned, there will be lot of people unaware of some embassies not issuing affidavits shortly. The s*** maybe hasn't hit fan just yet.

[Jeffrey346]

16 hours ago, marcus111 said:

if you are genuine and receive an income from your said affidavit as submitted to said embassy surely you have 800k thousand available to do it with truth.

 

 

That is not necessarily true. Many people have the income but not 800K required in cash.

[OJAS]

58 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

If you look at the current Police Order at 2.22 it lists both the 800K baht in the bank method and the 'evidence' of 65K baht monthly income method with no preference shown for either method.

True - but the $64,000 question is whether the monthly income method will, to all intents and purposes, be completely dead in the water from the middle of next year - at least as far as Americans, Aussies, Brits and Danes are concerned.

[JLCrab]

19 minutes ago, OJAS said:

True - but the $64,000 question is whether the monthly income method will, to all intents and purposes, be completely dead in the water from the middle of next year - at least as far as Americans, Aussies, Brits and Danes are concerned.

Nah it's only about $25,000 but who knows what's on the minds of the IMM top brass.

[amse]

As the old saying goes, "You can't fight city hall." During my 1st year living in Thailand a person who wanted to steal all of my belongings, tore the reentry slip from my passport, when I went to the US Embassy and behind the private curtain to the right, I was told to pack my bags and leave Thailand the next day. I then went to the Thai Embassy and was told by a high-ups officer to get a certain document from the US Embassy to fill out, and he even gave me a copy of such document. When I showed the copy of the document, I was accused of stealing it, and they said the document would do me no good, after pleading for several minutes, they gave me the document which I took back to the Thai office and he gave me a new re entry slip, which I presented to the US Officer causing him to loose face! Don't trust them, their not here to help you. 

[janclaes47]

10 minutes ago, amse said:

when I went to the US Embassy and behind the private curtain to the right, I was told to pack my bags and leave Thailand the next day. I then went to the Thai Embassy and was told by a high-ups officer to get a certain document from the US Embassy to fill out

 

So you  went to the Thai Embassy in Thailand?

 

Do you have the address?

 

Me thinks that you have no clue

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

The only way to prove that would be to prove you've used the 800k for living expenses throughout the year then replenish it every year, three months before your extension is due.

 

Well I submit 3 months of passbook copies showing numerous withdrawals during that time. But let's not wish the requirements to be too stringent. They just want to see you have enough and it hasn't been borrowed for a few days.

[Wake Up]

If you are an attorney from USA then put 800 k in a Thai bank and give it a rest. You don’t like the change. Many do not. But don’t argue policy and law with the embassy staff that simply notarizes documents or supervises the staff. No one truly knows what happened behind the scenes at the political level so let it go or file a lawsuit and get depositions from the people who were involved in making the decision. I vote to let it go. The law is not on your side and many of us Americans are happy to just put the money in the bank for 800k or for 65k a month for twelve months. ????

[Bangkok Basha]

There is no such thing as a "Family Support Unit", Counselor. Nor has there ever been such a thing here in Bangkok. There is and always has been the American Citizen Services unit of the U.S. Consulate, which serves the passport and affidavit notarization needs of U.S. citizens. The embassy has decided, for good reason, that they can no longer be put in the position of notarizing potentially fraudulent statements for whatever purpose, especially when it concerns income declarations. If there are other embassies where ACS notarizes income affidavits, I'm sure they are also reconsidering it and will also cease doing so. The extra time required to verify income exceeds the capacity of the staffing of the unit. As the website clearly states: Services we CANNOT provide: 

• Statements beyond the Consular Officer’s knowledge: e.g. that the document satisfies specific a legal requirement, that a person is the spouse of another, or an individual is an employee of a certain business or corporation.

In any case, anyone who is not happy with this outcome can very easily demonstrate the required monthly income transferred to Thailand (if they have it) or the required amount deposited in a Thai bank. Since this is what we have all been swearing before the consular official to obtain the affidavit, I don't see what the problem is (unless of course you don't have the assets or income required).