If suspected to work illegally in Thailand, tell them "work online"?

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I would never suggest one take a Thai job without a work-permit. 

https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-business-visa-to-work-online

 

 

Quote

 

Any foreigners working or starting a business in Thailand, online or off, need to first get a proper visa.

They can apply for a Non-Immigrant B visa at a Royal Thai Embassy in their home country.

Once they get it they can come to Thailand and apply for a work permit with the Department of Employment.

If we find out that a foreigner is doing business online without a work permit, we will arrest them and take legal action through the court.

Pol Col Panuwat Ruamrak, Superintendent of Phuket Immigration

 

 

Quote

 

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens.

For more information on the visas and documents required to apply for a work permit, we advise foreigners to contact us or the Department of Employment in the area they live.

We need detailed information from the foreigner before advising on further action.

Please call Phuket Department of Employment at 076-219660-1 ext 13 for further information.

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

The level of denial it requires, to read those clear factual statements, with named sources, established and published by media... And then to confuse enforcement with legality.. is really quite amazing. 

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

However they were formally and legally charged with working (online) without a work permit. 

How can they be charged with something your claiming isnt a crime ?? 

Filming onsite with a production crew in Thailand isn't working online, ya silly billy. It's filming in Thailand with a production crew. ????

[Happy Grumpy]

"If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type B) visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

 

Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration

 

https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

 

 

[JackThompson]

48 minutes ago, farangx said:

Foreigners like it here because of the corruptions and getting things done with money, and also to live their life on a budget. 

Budget is key to any living choice - including choices within countries.  The reasons I choose live here are the people, culture, fantastic food, and the like. 

 

The corruption is not a feature - it is a huge downside to the country - a blight upon it which is its primary negative.  I suspect most who deal with bad immigration offices/checkpoints feel the same way.  

 

A PI budget-element is similar to Thailand, but with the benefit of a friendly immigration system which has outlawed agent "fixers".  If we could have their immigration-service (and stay-options) here, it would be fantastic - for both xpats and Thais.

[jackdd]

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Of course I can differentiate.. However they were formally and legally charged with working (online) without a work permit. 

How can they be charged with something your claiming isnt a crime ?? 

We didn't see a single case of somebody being charged for working without work permit who was solely working online (business / employer abroad, clients abroad, money abroad), did we?

[LivinLOS]

57 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Filming onsite with a production crew in Thailand isn't working online, ya silly billy. It's filming in Thailand with a production crew. ????

Do you just post without any knowledge or fact checking ?? Where do you make all this up, or just assume it ?? 

The news report clearly states.. They were charged for working online. 

 

https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

Quote

They will be charged under the Computer Crime Act BE 2550 for disseminating pornography from within the Kingdom, and for working without the correct visa and work permits.

They were not filming, creating, or making porn.. They were running websites. 

Quote

The admin of the website had a matching IP address to the computers found in the house, and was in Chinese language.

 

[LivinLOS]

46 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

"If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type B) visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa."

 

Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration

 

https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

If you were at that meeting you will know that this was a miss translation.. What he said was more to the effect of "we are not concerned about this".. Which as immigration is not involved with policing labour law, makes perfect sense, why would immigration be concerned about people breaking labour law. 

[LivinLOS]

43 minutes ago, jackdd said:

We didn't see a single case of somebody being charged for working without work permit who was solely working online (business / employer abroad, clients abroad, money abroad), did we?

https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

You mean like that ?? 

Quote

Police raided a house being used by a group of Chinese nationals holding tourist visas as an illegal pornography website operation centre based in Thailand – a criminal offence under pornography laws and immigration laws.

 

[Happy Grumpy]

47 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

They were running websites. 

As a business office! 

 

Quote

a house being used by a group ...as an illegal pornography website operation centre

 

You cannot differentiate?? ???? 

 

 

My Lord, it's just as well the immigration and labour departments can!! ????

 

Though maybe the courts can't. They were all found not guilty of any crimes and released, weren't they? 

 

 

You can link to their convictions? Can't you? Oh no, they were all found not guilty of any crimes and released. 

 

????

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

https://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/chinese-porn-website-gang-arrested-at-faham-home/

You mean like that ?? 

 

Now let's take a Thai article which gives a little more details, and also lets us understand the whole working online situation a bit better: http://www.thethainews.net/2016/09/blog-post_84.html

ยังพบหลักฐานการทำงานในลักษณะของพนักงานบริษัทมีเวลาเข้าออกการทำงาน หากพบว่าเป็นการเปิดทำงานจริงก็จะสามารถเอาผิดในข้อหาเป็นต่างด้าวทำงานโดยผิดกฏหมาย

My personal translation of this, if you understand it differently you are free to correct me:

They (Police) are still investigating the evidence if the work performed by these guys has the character of working as an employee, for example if they have a fixed time when they have to show up for work or leave from work, if this should be the case then what they did is considered work and they would have worked illegally

 

I assume they didn't find this evidence (at least they would not find it with most online workers), and these guys were never prosecuted for working without work permit, because they were not considered to be working in Thailand

[ubonjoe]

A post flaming a member has been removed.

[balo]

5 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

You mean like that ?? 

Don't try to discuss with LivinLOS , he can't help himself and haven't got a clue , or maybe he just want to argue.  

 

He would still claim I need a WP just for sending an e-mail from my laptop . Silly xxxx. 

 

[direction BANGKOK]

12 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

1) yes working illegally.. Of course a 14 day work permit exemption is easily available should it be requested and theres clearly issues about 'performing work' versus 'managing investments or staff' and other listed exceptions (export, MICE, trade shows) but broad strokes its a violation. 

2) no (with again caveats) How the Dept of Labour have defined it the act of monetising the account is how they have defined when its for hobby / enjoyment and when its for work. The clear outcome of this is that it comes down to 'intent' which is a common legal aspect worldwide and as always is hard to prove. 

RIght. 

 

So my point, not that it matters and not that I personally have a solution, is a guy can get on the phone for two minutes and be in violation. Meanwhile a youtuber with 40 million subscibers could come here on a holiday/vacation, changes his intent and decides to monetize when he gets home, make millions of dollars, and not be in violation (potentially anyway).

[LivinLOS]

On 12/22/2018 at 12:11 AM, direction BANGKOK said:

RIght. 

 

So my point, not that it matters and not that I personally have a solution, is a guy can get on the phone for two minutes and be in violation. Meanwhile a youtuber with 40 million subscibers could come here on a holiday/vacation, changes his intent and decides to monetize when he gets home, make millions of dollars, and not be in violation (potentially anyway).

yes except you dont really change intent.. You intend or you dont intend.. Proving intent is notoriously difficult. 

[direction BANGKOK]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

yes except you dont really change intent.. You intend or you dont intend.. Proving intent is notoriously difficult. 

Right. I see this as very problematic. Why on earth wouldn't I leave my hotel room with the intent of making a video as a hobbyist?! That way, every avenue is open to me. If i leave my hotel room with the intent to use it commercially, I am screwed. And it is as simple as a choice. I suppose maybe there is just something in there I am not understanding. 

 

Drone laws are like this too, which is why it is such a quandry to me. Intent at the time of flight is the criteria. So, why would I not fly my drone up as a hobbyist? That way, I am covered on intent, and I can do whatever i would like with the image later. 

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, direction BANGKOK said:

Right. I see this as very problematic. Why on earth wouldn't I leave my hotel room with the intent of making a video as a hobbyist?! That way, every avenue is open to me. If i leave my hotel room with the intent to use it commercially, I am screwed. And it is as simple as a choice. I suppose maybe there is just something in there I am not understanding. 

 

Drone laws are like this too, which is why it is such a quandry to me. Intent at the time of flight is the criteria. So, why would I not fly my drone up as a hobbyist? That way, I am covered on intent, and I can do whatever i would like with the image later. 

Legally 'intent' is a minefield even in the west with a much more rule based legal system. 

Intent could be proven by looking at things like prior history, eventual output, etc etc.. 

Examples would be.. If you are a youtube videographer / vlogger, and routinely create content that is marketable.. And you go out and create marketable content, claiming you 'intended' to be a hobbyist would be tough... Those '10 best things to do in Phuket' list vids, or other guides and other well shot, on prosumer grade equipment, slickly edited, etc etc forms of content which are monetized are not hobby output. Now if you do a shaky facebook live from a cellphone unless your Gary V thats clearly more hobby / fun.. 

Intent as a legal measure is always where on a range of facts a judge decides it is (which in Thailand can be a very wide range).