Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[rixalex]

The will of the people in 2019 is to remain. You are now in the minority, as you might well find out should this fiasco result in a second vote. And ironically the younger generations, who will have to live with Brexit, are against it. Every time I see a vox pop of leavers they are invariably old age pensioners ... who will gain little from Brexit, but are happy for the younger generation to lose a great deal. Time for those with a vested interest in the long term future of the country to take back control from those who do not.

The will of the people in 2019 is to remain. You are now in the minority, as you might well find out should this fiasco result in a second vote.

Just like to know how you are able to state as a fact that the will of the people is to remain?

As for "this fiasco". Firstly, "this fiasco" has been largely created by people of a similar mindset to you, in Parliament, who promised to enact the will of the people, but who have being doing everything they can to prevent it.

Secondly, the idea that another referendum will in any way resolve "this fiasco", is fantasy. If remain wins, leave will just follow the example set by remain, and refuse to accept the result. If leave wins, we're back where we started. Parliament will still favour remain and as remain MPs are often quoted as saying, just because you lose a vote doesn't mean you stop fighting for what you believe in. More feet dragging, stalling and delaying would ensue.


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[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Just like to know how you are able to state as a fact that the will of the people is to remain?

How are you able to state the opposite?

Quote

As for "this fiasco". Firstly, "this fiasco" has been largely created by people of a similar mindset to you, in Parliament, who promised to enact the will of the people, but who have being doing everything they can to prevent it.

You cannot enact a will when 

(1) there is not one will but many different ones;

(2) those different wills are not even on the table. 

 

Quote

Secondly, the idea that another referendum will in any way resolve "this fiasco", is fantasy.

A Brexiteers teaching us about fantasy, now that’s a new one. 

 

Quote

If remain wins, leave will just follow the example set by remain, and refuse to accept the result.

No one is refusing “to accept the result”. There is no clear result and none that could be implemented. That a second referendum would provide, so it would be difficult for anyone to demand another vote. Only Brexiteers are arguing with a win/lost-narrative; everyone else is looking for solutions. 

 

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

 

Just like to know how you are able to state as a fact that the will of the people is to remain?

As for "this fiasco". Firstly, "this fiasco" has been largely created by people of a similar mindset to you, in Parliament, who promised to enact the will of the people, but who have being doing everything they can to prevent it.

Secondly, the idea that another referendum will in any way resolve "this fiasco", is fantasy. If remain wins, leave will just follow the example set by remain, and refuse to accept the result. If leave wins, we're back where we started. Parliament will still favour remain and as remain MPs are often quoted as saying, just because you lose a vote doesn't mean you stop fighting for what you believe in. More feet dragging, stalling and delaying would ensue.


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The difference is that the majority of parliamentarians are rational, educated people. Unlike most of their constituents. They will never, ever, ask "the people" again. Watch for a huge rise in the education budget.

[evadgib]

42 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I have already proved to you, with evidence, that Brexiteers are far more insulting and vitriolic to remainers than remainers are to Brexiteers.

 

Sorry if that doesn't fit your slanted agenda.

As stated earlier I'd never have stepped up if it weren't for the constant drivel I found I could no longer ignore. Others everywhere are doing same. You make better recruiting Sgts than Ferage & Co ever will and I for one am extremely grateful ????

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The difference is that the majority of parliamentarians are rational, educated people. Unlike most of their constituents. They will never, ever, ask "the people" again. Watch for a huge rise in the education budget.

Yes, with the money that the U.K will save , not giving all our money to other Countries , we will be able to invest in education 

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, brucec64 said:

Seems like a general lack of understanding fuels the Brexiteers.

Under WTO, if the UK offers no tariffs to a country, it must offer no tariffs across the board, to all countries.

This would completely decimate parts of the protected farming industry, and countless other industries. That is why there are trade deals.

The trade deal between Canada and the EU took 7 years to complete. By then, a lot of industries will have disappeared.

Do you also still believe the NHS will be getting 350m a week?


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Not the largest of industries admittedly, though the importance of the  flower industry to Holland, should not be underestimated. Yet E.U officials are now threatening, that in the event of a no deal, supplies will be difficult to obtain, and those that do come through will be significantly more expensive.

 Yet they forget to mention that most flowers that come into the U.K are in fact grown in east Africa, shipped to Holland, which in turn acts as a distribution centre.

Go forward to when the people’s Democratic vote is implemented, I’m sure we must have enough savvy business folk in the U.K who will see the opportunity to import direct from Africa, probably at a lower cost to the consumer. In the meantime, the Dutch will lose their largest customer.

 

This is just one industry,how many others will also be similarly effected?

[damascase]

40 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Not the largest of industries admittedly, though the importance of the  flower industry to Holland, should not be underestimated. Yet E.U officials are now threatening, that in the event of a no deal, supplies will be difficult to obtain, and those that do come through will be significantly more expensive.

 Yet they forget to mention that most flowers that come into the U.K are in fact grown in east Africa, shipped to Holland, which in turn acts as a distribution centre.

Go forward to when the people’s Democratic vote is implemented, I’m sure we must have enough savvy business folk in the U.K who will see the opportunity to import direct from Africa, probably at a lower cost to the consumer. In the meantime, the Dutch will lose their largest customer.

 

This is just one industry,how many others will also be similarly effected?

Are EU officials ‘threatening’? Isn’t it common understanding that in the case of a no deal there inevitably will be delays because of Customs and phytosanitary procedures? And that if these products become more expensive, it will be because of these procedures and of any duties that the UK is going to impose? And you blame the EU for that?

And why haven’t seen these ‘savvy business folks’ the opportunity to import direct from Africa before? Or are you going to tell me that the EU didn’t allow them to do just that?

[evadgib]

This knocks any of the prefixes remainers hope will bolster their cause into a cocked hat:

 

[whatsupdoc]

15 minutes ago, evadgib said:

This knocks any of the prefixes remainers hope will bolster their cause into a cocked hat:

 

Norway is not in the EU...... So a soft Brexit could exist. But I am quite sure JRM is well aware of that. Just feeding the Brexiteers the simple slogans they crave for.

[aright]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

The difference is that the majority of parliamentarians are rational, educated people. Unlike most of their constituents. They will never, ever, ask "the people" again. Watch for a huge rise in the education budget.

Is that why the Government (your so called rational educated people) spent almost£20 billion in a failed scheme to update Londons Underground

Prescotts ludicrous attempt to privatise the tube.

Tony Blair committed the NHS to the biggest civilian IT project the world has ever seen, estimated to cost £6billion  ….. it was abandoned when costs got to £10billion.

The Assets recovery Agency costs more to run than any money clawed back from the proceeds of organized crime.

The Poll Tax.

The Millenium Dome.

etc.

and for the future expect HS2 to be added to the list

 

So much for rational, educated people.

 

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Not the largest of industries admittedly, though the importance of the  flower industry to Holland, should not be underestimated. Yet E.U officials are now threatening, that in the event of a no deal, supplies will be difficult to obtain, and those that do come through will be significantly more expensive.

 Yet they forget to mention that most flowers that come into the U.K are in fact grown in east Africa, shipped to Holland, which in turn acts as a distribution centre.

Go forward to when the people’s Democratic vote is implemented, I’m sure we must have enough savvy business folk in the U.K who will see the opportunity to import direct from Africa, probably at a lower cost to the consumer. In the meantime, the Dutch will lose their largest customer.

 

This is just one industry,how many others will also be similarly effected?

No one has banned the UK from importing their plants directly from Africa. The Netherlands as well as the UK operate in the EU under the same conditions. What you are describing is fantasy.

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Norway is not in the EU...... So a soft Brexit could exist. But I am quite sure JRM is well aware of that. Just feeding the Brexiteers the simple slogans they crave for.

lol, It won't be Hard, Soft or par boiled; It will (only) be Leaving ????

[bannork]

8 minutes ago, evadgib said:

It won't be Hard, Soft or par boiled; It will (only) be Leaving.

Leaving with no agreement? 

That is a hard Brexit and all the negative consequences that entails.

[evadgib]

Methinks the sun will still rise on 30 March (but several people might have a hangover!)

 

Further to my point about being driven into this....

 

[JAG]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Methinks the sun will still rise on 30 March.

Whilst I admire your relentless optimism, I really don't think that you are qualified to offer an opinion. Age, perceived educational achievement  (note the perception rather than any actuality is sufficient to clinch the argument) and your general air of one who is easily convinced by slogans on a bus all combine to make your views invalid and any vote which you may have cast is clearly illegitimate.

 

No less respected and august a statesman as John Major has opined that from the 30th of March, things will never be the same again. He hasn't mentioned the sun not rising, but that may be because, by the look of him, he hasn't been out in the sun since that unpleasant business over the Maastricht Treaty all those years ago. Why can't people like you just let the achievements of past great leaders, speakers of the truth such as men like Edward Heath (onanist sorry, organist and sailor) and Anthony Lindon, sorry, Tony Blair, (he has such a sincere smile you know) stand?

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

This knocks any of the prefixes remainers hope will bolster their cause into a cocked hat:

 

Another Eton toff talking out of his backside. How can intelligent people believe these numpties?

 

I have always been convinced that intelligence is inversely proportional to social class. The top of the social tree is the Royal Family, uniformly nice but incredibly dim.

 

People often make the mistake of correlating educated with intelligence, a big mistake. The highly educated Bullingdon crew are struggling to find a brain cell between them. Why would anyone want the country to be run by an encephalitic idiot like Boris Johnson?

[7by7]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

Hospitals don't pay porters and cleaners. That work was contracted out to private companies, many years ago.

I stand corrected.

 

Bet they don't pay them enough to get a Tier 2 visa, at least £30,000 p.a., though!

[Spidey]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I stand corrected.

 

Bet they don't pay them enough to get a Tier 2 visa, at least £30,000 p.a., though!

I don't understand the 2 tier visa issue but there are certainly a lot of Africans in those jobs.

[Loiner]

31 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Another Eton toff talking out of his backside. How can intelligent people believe these numpties?

 

Would these numpties be the ones from the same background as the other parliamentarians who are rational, educated people? Or is this name calling because they don't hold the same Remainer views as you?

Plenty of toffs in the Remainer ranks too, and a few others who are just rich champagne socialists. Add to that mix the globalists, ivory tower dwelling social engineers, edjumacated elitists, telly talking heads and the chattering classes, then you've got yourself a Remain campaign. 

[7by7]

31 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I don't understand the 2 tier visa issue but there are certainly a lot of Africans in those jobs.

 

I recently visited on several occasions a friend who was in the Royal Surrey County Hospital in Guildford. Obviously I didn't see very ancillary worker there, but most of those I did see, judging by their accents, were east European. 

 

Obviously, though, it will depend upon the demographics of where you live.

 

A tier 2 visa is for a general work visa; it has replaced most other forms of work visa. I did post a link to the guidance earlier; here it is again.

 

The main issue is that, apart from nurses, medical radiographers, paramedics and secondary school teachers in certain subjects, the minimum salary required to obtain this visa is £30,000 per year.

[Spidey]

32 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Would these numpties be the ones from the same background as the other parliamentarians who are rational, educated people? Or is this name calling because they don't hold the same Remainer views as you?

Plenty of toffs in the Remainer ranks too, and a few others who are just rich champagne socialists. Add to that mix the globalists, ivory tower dwelling social engineers, edjumacated elitists, telly talking heads and the chattering classes, then you've got yourself a Remain campaign. 

Name an Old Etonian in the remainer ranks. Better still, name a member of the Bullingdon club in the ranks of the remainers.

[evadgib]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Name an Old Etonian in the remainer ranks. Better still, name a member of the Bullingdon club in the ranks of the remainers.

Bullingdon is also the name of an Oxfordshire prison but I'm not sufficiently interested to see what side the likes of Archer or Aitkin etc might have taken in this debacle.

 

(I'm joking for those that would believe otherwise!)

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Another Eton toff talking out of his backside. How can intelligent people believe these numpties?

How about commenting on what he said rather than who/what he is?

[7by7]

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

<snip>

As stated earlier I'd never have stepped up if it weren't for the constant drivel I found I could no longer ignore.

 Who is that masked man with his underpants outside his trousers come to rescue the Brexiteer cause?

 

Brexitman!

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

Whilst I admire your relentless optimism, I really don't think that you are qualified to offer an opinion. Age, perceived educational achievement  (note the perception rather than any actuality is sufficient to clinch the argument) and your general air of one who is easily convinced by slogans on a bus all combine to make your views invalid and any vote which you may have cast is clearly illegitimate.

 

No less respected and august a statesman as John Major has opined that from the 30th of March, things will never be the same again. He hasn't mentioned the sun not rising, but that may be because, by the look of him, he hasn't been out in the sun since that unpleasant business over the Maastricht Treaty all those years ago. Why can't people like you just let the achievements of past great leaders, speakers of the truth such as men like Edward Heath (onanist sorry, organist and sailor) and Anthony Lindon, sorry, Tony Blair, (he has such a sincere smile you know) stand?

Appreciated, but;

- My 'relentless optimism' started somewhat reluctantly just 2 months ago as explained.

- My opinion was formed long before slogans ever came into it.

- Major was IMO a failure as PM, not least because of Mastricht. He's a nice enough bloke but has insufficient pulling power to do any real damage. Napoleon marching on Paris he aint ????

[Spidey]

29 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How about commenting on what he said rather than who/what he is?

Because he didn't say anything worth commenting on. Utter tosh.

[evadgib]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Who is that masked man with his underpants outside his trousers come to rescue the Brexiteer cause?

 

Brexitman!

...but thanks to you(r side) there's more than just one ????

 

(Take a look at the last ever scene in 'Dads Army' for an idea of what you are currently doing)

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Name an Old Etonian in the remainer ranks. Better still, name a member of the Bullingdon club in the ranks of the remainers.

Well, a casual flick through the Old Etonians Website (even a mere Grammar School Oik such as I can access it) reveals: David Tredinick MP (Bosworth), Rory Stewart MP (Penrith and The Borders) - both on the record as opposing Brexit; Justin Welby (Archbishop of Canterbury) who is I believe a prominent "Remainer",  George Osbourne, who now edits The Evening Standard, but  was once something in politics (and was a member of The Bullingdon Club) is a strong advocate of remain, and of course there is a chap called David Cameron whose connection with the whole business escapes me, but who is I am sure quite keen on remaining...

[evadgib]

9 minutes ago, JAG said:

Well, a casual flick through the Old Etonians Website (even a mere Grammar School Oik such as I can access it) reveals: David Tredinick MP (Bosworth), Rory Stewart MP (Penrith and The Borders - both on the record as opposing Brexit; Justin Welby (Archbishop of Canterbury) who is I believe a prominent "Remainer",  George Osbourne, who now edits The Evening Standard, but  was once something in politics (and was a member of The Bullingdon Club) is a strong advocate of remain, and of course there is a chap called David Cameron whose connection with the whole business escapes me, but who is I am sure quite keen on remaining...

I knew that was coming but it's your turn for the voodoo dolls ????

[melvinmelvin]

is May's Plan-B due tomorrow morning UK time,

or afternoon?

When will parliament start discussing?