Foreigner doing small farming

[TheWarrior]

Is it possible for Foreigner to rent small land like 5-12 rai. And a small scale farming on it in Thailand?

[MikeN]

From the ministry of labour website :

 

 

PRESCRIBING OCCUPATIONS AND PROFESSIONS PROHIBITED FOR FOREIGN WORKERS 

 

 

 

1.  Labour work;

 

2.  Agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry, or fishery, except work requiring expertise, specialized work, or farm supervision work;

 

 

So you cannot (legally) do the manual work, but you could supervise and provide the expertise ..... but I'm sure there are plenty of foreigners who driven the tractor or truck on the family farm, the key is to not undercut local prices, nor piss off anybody who might report you.

As for actually renting the land, it would be a lot easier and more practical to do it through a Thai wife/partner.

Edited January 20, 2019 by MikeN

[Cashboy]

Renting farm land makes sense as opposed to buying.

You will need a Thai to front for you like a Thai girlfriend.

 

You would have no problem in driving a tractor and working on the land yourself unles you start selling on the open market and cutting Thai seller's  prices.

5-12 rai (2 to 5 acres) is enough to feed a 3 generation family if managed well I would have thought.

[drtreelove]

Besides the legal restrictions pointed out, and the need to have a Thai wife or partner, consider how much time and money you would have to put into property that isn't yours and can be taken away after your lease period.  There is always the chance that when you improve the property and make it productive, that it will become more valuable to the owner to sell or take back for his own use. 

 

It  happened to us. We took over a 10 rai farm from the wife of an expat friend who had died.  We had a three year lease with assurance that she didn't intend to sell and that we could stay there indefinitely.  We knew it was a calculated risk but we loved the farm and went for it. We put a lot of labor and money into fencing,  revitalizing the lamyai and mango orchards, restoring a bore well and water tank tower, irrigation system, soil building and other improvements.  Then she sold the property out from under us. 

[norfolkc]

Signed contract ??

[kickstart]

11 hours ago, norfolkc said:

Signed contract ??

We rented some land and had a signed contract, with a stamp from the locale Aumpure, which made it legal, on a year by year lease ,then the owner put the rent up, not making it viable for us ,the new leaseholder was  growing sugar cane , so the land owner still has the uper hand.

A Thai frind of mine is leasing some land, he has a small dairy farm so he was looking for the long term, he got a 10 year lease by puting his name on the Chanot,the tital deeds, that is legally binding ,he had to go though the locale land office to get it all sorted out ,this must be 6 years ago ,land prices have gone up a lot over the past few years  and he told me the landowner has made noises about selling the land ,but he can not due to his name on the title deeds, so it can be done .

[TheWarrior]

On 1/29/2019 at 9:26 PM, drtreelove said:

Besides the legal restrictions pointed out, and the need to have a Thai wife or partner, consider how much time and money you would have to put into property that isn't yours and can be taken away after your lease period.  There is always the chance that when you improve the property and make it productive, that it will become more valuable to the owner to sell or take back for his own use. 

 

It  happened to us. We took over a 10 rai farm from the wife of an expat friend who had died.  We had a three year lease with assurance that she didn't intend to sell and that we could stay there indefinitely.  We knew it was a calculated risk but we loved the farm and went for it. We put a lot of labor and money into fencing,  revitalizing the lamyai and mango orchards, restoring a bore well and water tank tower, irrigation system, soil building and other improvements.  Then she sold the property out from under us. 

How come you dont put credit on the land. Example you make a contract that the owner borrow 50K usd and they put the land as a backup. Then they can not move you from the land can they?

[billd766]

On 1/27/2019 at 4:55 PM, Cashboy said:

Renting farm land makes sense as opposed to buying.

You will need a Thai to front for you like a Thai girlfriend.

 

You would have no problem in driving a tractor and working on the land yourself unles you start selling on the open market and cutting Thai seller's  prices.

5-12 rai (2 to 5 acres) is enough to feed a 3 generation family if managed well I would have thought.

So much depends on the crops that you grow.

 

For rice you need flat land with good access to water, Man Saparan or tapioca the land can be sloping and it is easy to grow and needs little attention. For other crops I am not sure.

 

The upfront costs are high if you have to buy a tractor. You also need to buy weed killer and fertiliser and perhaps you first batch of the crop. Especially if you don't have enough family to help with clearing the land, ploughing it, weedkilling it, planting the crops, fertilising the crop, eventually harvesting the crop with your team of workers, then getting it to the middle man to weigh and pay it.

 

With man saparang you need to buy the initial crop (after the first harvest you use the stalks from the first crop) but you get one harvest per year and the market price ranges from around 1,200 baht per ton up to about 2,000 baht a ton.

 

That would give you 6 to 10,000 baht per rai or 30 to 50,000 baht for 5 rai.

 

If you get the best quality stalks you could be lucky and get 5 tons per rai IF the man saparang is clean and dry. The middleman drops the price if it is dirty and/or wet.

 

So for 5 rai you should get perhaps 50,000 baht a year.

 

My wife tried it when we came to rural Kamphaeng Phet and dumped it after the first year as she was losing money on it. Now she still owns the land but rents it out to local farmers. She doesn't make a lot on the land rental but has the advantage of getting money for no work for her.

 

This is one reason that small farmers are always deep in debt.

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, TheWarrior said:

How come you don't put credit on the land. Example you make a contract that the owner borrow 50K usd and they put the land as a backup. Then they can not move you from the land can they?

It depends on the land title.

 

If it is chanote which is yours to sell and is the highest land title it is a good thing and you can borrow against that land title, but any other title means that you cannot borrow against the land.

[grollies]

On 1/30/2019 at 10:38 PM, billd766 said:

It depends on the land title.

 

If it is chanote which is yours to sell and is the highest land title it is a good thing and you can borrow against that land title, but any other title means that you cannot borrow against the land.

This isn't true (although probably correct legally). Our neighbour has Sor Por Kor (the lowest form of land title) land deeds in the bank against a loan. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, grollies said:

This isn't true (although probably correct legally). Our neighbour has Sor Por Kor (the lowest form of land title) land deeds in the bank against a loan. 

I believe that I am correct.

 

Here is a link that I found useful

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land-title-deeds.html

 

And another from TVF going back 10 years.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/291083-problem-with-sor-por-kor-title-land/

 

[cornishcarlos]

18 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I believe that I am correct.

 

Here is a link that I found useful

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land-title-deeds.html

 

And another from TVF going back 10 years.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/291083-problem-with-sor-por-kor-title-land/

 

 

What the law says and what Thais do, are 2 very different things ????

[Date Masamune]

A strict reading of the law then you can’t do your own gardening surprised they allow drivers licenses and don’t require you to hire a maid.

[grollies]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

I believe that I am correct.

 

Here is a link that I found useful

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land-title-deeds.html

 

And another from TVF going back 10 years.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/291083-problem-with-sor-por-kor-title-land/

 

You are correct and so am I and so is @cornishcarlos

[billd766]

26 minutes ago, grollies said:

You are correct and so am I and so is @cornishcarlos

 

If things are kept quiet and on a low level then there is no problem in buying Sor Por Kor land providing of course the buyer is Thai, (wife, g/f etc). What does get a little tricky is when 2 or 3 hundred rai is involved and the owner tries to borrow against it. If they go to the amphur to register it, the land department may ask where the money came from and that can cause a problem. You as the farang will have no say in the disposal of that land.

If the Thai goes to the bank for a loan (farangs must not be seen or heard from) then depending on which bank and which manager a loan may be granted. However as Sor Por Kor land is basically no title then the value of the land is quite low so they bank may not offer a loan.

The alternative to a bank are the money lenders and if they think it is worth a loan you will probably get one but the loan rate will be high and the terms and  conditions will be much worse.

 

[grollies]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

If things are kept quiet and on a low level then there is no problem in buying Sor Por Kor land providing of course the buyer is Thai, (wife, g/f etc). What does get a little tricky is when 2 or 3 hundred rai is involved and the owner tries to borrow against it. If they go to the amphur to register it, the land department may ask where the money came from and that can cause a problem. You as the farang will have no say in the disposal of that land.

If the Thai goes to the bank for a loan (farangs must not be seen or heard from) then depending on which bank and which manager a loan may be granted. However as Sor Por Kor land is basically no title then the value of the land is quite low so they bank may not offer a loan.

The alternative to a bank are the money lenders and if they think it is worth a loan you will probably get one but the loan rate will be high and the terms and  conditions will be much worse.

 

Spot on, our (sorry, wifey's)  land is Sor Por Kor.

[billd766]

1 minute ago, grollies said:

Spot on, our (sorry, wifey's)  land is Sor Por Kor.

 

I am in the same position as you.

 

Her land literally backs onto the Mae Wong national park and I don't think she will ever get chanote on it.

 

 

[grollies]

45 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I am in the same position as you.

 

Her land literally backs onto the Mae Wong national park and I don't think she will ever get chanote on it.

 

 

I don't worry about it to be honest. I understood the rules before we moved here full time. We've built a broiler farm which gives us a far better return than a bank ever could. It will pass to our Thai son (my step son) when we're gone and that's ok. My kids in the UK are provided for with land and property there.

 

No chance of chanote title here too.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, grollies said:

I don't worry about it to be honest. I understood the rules before we moved here full time. We've built a broiler farm which gives us a far better return than a bank ever could. It will pass to our Thai son (my step son) when we're gone and that's ok. My kids in the UK are provided for with land and property there.

 

No chance of chanote title here too.

Our land will come to me and our 14 year old son if my wife dies before me (unlikely as she is 21 years younger than me) and it will all go to him in the end anyway.

[AlQaholic]

you can rent the land me thinks, but you can not farm on it personally as a foreigner. Your Thai family members should be able to till the land.

[gamini]

On 1/29/2019 at 9:26 PM, drtreelove said:

Besides the legal restrictions pointed out, and the need to have a Thai wife or partner, consider how much time and money you would have to put into property that isn't yours and can be taken away after your lease period.  There is always the chance that when you improve the property and make it productive, that it will become more valuable to the owner to sell or take back for his own use. 

 

It  happened to us. We took over a 10 rai farm from the wife of an expat friend who had died.  We had a three year lease with assurance that she didn't intend to sell and that we could stay there indefinitely.  We knew it was a calculated risk but we loved the farm and went for it. We put a lot of labor and money into fencing,  revitalizing the lamyai and mango orchards, restoring a bore well and water tank tower, irrigation system, soil building and other improvements.  Then she sold the property out from under us. 

You can take a 30 year lease and the owner can't take it back. The lease must be registered with the Amphur. You don't need a wife or a Thai girlfriend to do this.

I leased a 25 rai farm and managed , and worked on  it myself. I sold the produce too.

As long as you don't rub anybody up the wrong way, you shouldn't have any problems.

It's technically illegal, like prostitution.  

[myshem]

You can do what you want as nobody will know. If they were catching foreigners working on their land most of Esaan based foreigners would be jailed.

 

[TheWarrior]

On 2/4/2019 at 5:05 PM, billd766 said:

 

If things are kept quiet and on a low level then there is no problem in buying Sor Por Kor land providing of course the buyer is Thai, (wife, g/f etc). What does get a little tricky is when 2 or 3 hundred rai is involved and the owner tries to borrow against it. If they go to the amphur to register it, the land department may ask where the money came from and that can cause a problem. You as the farang will have no say in the disposal of that land.

If the Thai goes to the bank for a loan (farangs must not be seen or heard from) then depending on which bank and which manager a loan may be granted. However as Sor Por Kor land is basically no title then the value of the land is quite low so they bank may not offer a loan.

The alternative to a bank are the money lenders and if they think it is worth a loan you will probably get one but the loan rate will be high and the terms and  conditions will be much worse.

 

Ok I dont completely understand all this. But let me just put imaginary scenario. I find a person who has 20 rai of Land. Then I give him fair money for his land as a LOAN against the title. And Also I can rent the property as long as the loan is not payed off. If I understand correct, the land belongs to him. But he can not have the land back or sale the land unless he give me back the money of the loan? I'm I correct? That way I can live on the land as long as he can not pay the loan. Off course this has to be supported by legal registration of the loan, and sign agreement with lawyer. Again this is just scenario but is it doable?

[TheWarrior]

On 2/5/2019 at 8:51 AM, AlQaholic said:

you can rent the land me thinks, but you can not farm on it personally as a foreigner. Your Thai family members should be able to till the land.

Ok Lets say I rent the farm land. I employ 1 or multiple person to work on it. Lets say I give the person / owner of the land money as a loan for his title /land. Can I have peace of mind that he can not move me out unless he returns the loan on the land? Also if he has loan on the land he can not sell the land right? I just want to have peace of mind and leave on land for long time. But I want to give fair price for the land also.

[grollies]

19 minutes ago, TheWarrior said:

Ok I dont completely understand all this. But let me just put imaginary scenario. I find a person who has 20 rai of Land. Then I give him fair money for his land as a LOAN against the title

And what do you as a farang do after he has pocketed the cash 'loan', refuses to pay it back and when you go to the court to take title possession they tell you to get lost? You are farang, you cannot own chanote land deeds.

 

Your post is a fantasy mate.

[TheWarrior]

3 minutes ago, grollies said:

And what do you as a farang do after he has pocketed the cash 'loan', refuses to pay it back and when you go to the court to take title possession they tell you to get lost? You are farang, you cannot own chanote land deeds.

 

Your post is a fantasy mate.

I didnt say I want to own the land. I said I want to live on it long term. Like 30 years or so. Can the owner move me out of the land if he has loan taken from me? He can keep the money as long as I stay on it 30 years. No problem.

Edited February 23, 2019 by TheWarrior

[MrTrip]

I see what you’re saying, we have loaned money to an uncle so that FIL can continue growing rice on the land. That loan is only for 3 years but works in a similar way to how you suggest. The main difference being the contract only names Thais, not sure if foreigners are allowed to do this? You would think that it’s possible as foreigners can rent houses.

 

Similarly, I will also probably never see the loan repaid but that’s acceptable

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheWarrior]

1 minute ago, MrTrip said:

I see what you’re saying, we have loaned money to an uncle so that FIL can continue growing rice on the land. That loan is only for 3 years but works in a similar way to how you suggest. The main difference being the contract only names Thais, not sure if foreigners are allowed to do this? You would think that it’s possible as foreigners can rent houses.

I’m assuming that you realise you’ll never see the money again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes I'm aware of that rick. As Long as I stay long term on the land is ok. I guess the best way is to ask a lawyer. I was just wondering if people have some knowledge about it.

[grollies]

14 minutes ago, TheWarrior said:

Yes I'm aware of that rick. As Long as I stay long term on the land is ok. I guess the best way is to ask a lawyer. I was just wondering if people have some knowledge about it.

Do you have a Thai wife and dependants?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, TheWarrior said:

Ok I dont completely understand all this. But let me just put imaginary scenario. I find a person who has 20 rai of Land. Then I give him fair money for his land as a LOAN against the title. And Also I can rent the property as long as the loan is not payed off. If I understand correct, the land belongs to him. But he can not have the land back or sale the land unless he give me back the money of the loan? I'm I correct? That way I can live on the land as long as he can not pay the loan. Off course this has to be supported by legal registration of the loan, and sign agreement with lawyer. Again this is just scenario but is it doable?

I have never heard of that before and I suspect that it is possible, but you may have to talk to the land owner, the pu yai ban (village leader), and if they agree you will have to go to the amphur (area local administration), the people in there who deal with the land boundaries and land registration and lawyers.

 

It may be and possibly is that you personally as a farang will not be able to do it, though your Thai wife/gf may be able to do it without your name appearing anywhere.

 

Thailand for some reason, good or bad does not like foreigners owning land in Thailand. You can have a condo provided that there are more than 51% Thais in the building but you cannot own the land it is built on.

 

Your wife/gf can own land and a house theron and you can take out out a 30 year ownership of the house (I have forgotten the correct name for it). If you split up nobody can take away your right to live there but sadly you would have to negotiate the right to cross their land to get to the house.

 

In my case my wife had a plot of land and I gave her the money to but the plot next door. I also gave here the money to build the house and it is her name. I am 21 years older than her and most probably will die first. If she dies before me, legally I will own half the land and house and our son will own the other half. 

 

As a farang I have to dispose of my share which is easy as I will give my share to my son. If I stay and refuse to part with my share than Thai law forces me to sell it within one year or the government will sell it over my head.

 

TBH at 74 I really don't want to own it but to live here until I die.

 

Sorry about the long ramble but even if you provide the loan money it cannot be see to have come from you and you will most likely have no rights to either the land or your money back IMHO.