Democrats push technology as alternative to Trump wall in shutdown impasse

[webfact]

Democrats push technology as alternative to Trump wall in shutdown impasse

By Richard Cowan and John Whitesides

 

U.S. President Donald Trump participates in a discussion on immigration proposals with conservative leaders and Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen in the Cabinet Room of the White House in Washington, U.S., January 23, 2019. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives floated the idea on Wednesday of ending a partial U.S. government shutdown by giving President Donald Trump most or all of the money he seeks for security along the Mexican border but for items other than the wall he wants.

 

As a shutdown that has left 800,000 federal workers without pay hit its 33rd day, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi essentially disinvited Trump from delivering the annual State of the Union address in the House chamber until the government is fully opened.

 

Other leaders in the Democratic-controlled House said they were drafting a funding offer that they will likely make to Trump in a letter. Representative James Clyburn, the No. 3 House Democrat, said Democrats could fulfil Trump's request for $5.7 billion for border security with technological tools such as drones, X-rays and sensors, as well as more border patrol agents.

 

Representative Steny Hoyer, the No. 2 House Democrat, said Democrats also would discuss "substantial sums of additional money" for border security as part of a possible deal. He did not say if it would amount to the $5.7 billion sought by Trump.

 

The Republican president triggered the shutdown last month by demanding money for the wall, opposed by Democrats, as part of any legislation to fund about a quarter of the government. Clyburn's offer would be a significant monetary increase over bills previously passed by Democrats, which included only about $1.3 billion for this year in additional border security, with none for a wall.

 

"Using the figure the president put on the table, if his $5.7 billion is about border security then we see ourselves fulfilling that request, only doing it with what I like to call using a smart wall," Clyburn told reporters.

 

Republican Representative Tom Cole, a member of the House Appropriations Committee, told reporters the Democratic proposal could help.

 

"Any movement, any discussion is helpful," Cole said. "We've got to get past this wall-or-no-wall debate."

 

The battle over border security and government funding spilled over into a parallel controversy over Trump's upcoming State of the Union address. Trump sent a letter to Pelosi on Wednesday saying he looked forward to delivering it as scheduled next Tuesday in the House chamber. Pelosi previously had asked Trump to consider postponing because security could not be guaranteed during the shutdown.

 

But Pelosi on Wednesday told Trump the House would not consider a measure authorizing his address until the shutdown ends. "Again, I look forward to welcoming you to the House on a mutually agreeable date for this address when government has been opened," Pelosi said to Trump in a letter.

 

SENATE PLANS VOTES

The U.S. Senate, controlled by Trump's fellow Republicans, planned votes for Thursday on competing proposals that face steep odds to end the shutdown.

 

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell plans a vote on a Democratic proposal that would fund the government for three weeks but does not include the $5.7 billion in partial funding for a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border.

 

Its prospects appeared grim. The House has passed several similar bills but Trump has rejected legislation that does not include the wall funding. McConnell previously said he would not consider a bill that Trump did not support.

 

McConnell also planned to hold a vote on legislation that would include wall funding and a temporary extension of protections for "Dreamers," people brought illegally to the United States as children, an offer Trump made on Saturday. Trump's 2017 plan to rescind protections against deportation for hundreds of thousands of "Dreamers" has been blocked by the courts.

 

Democrats have dismissed the offer, saying they would not negotiate on border security before reopening the government, and that they would not trade a temporary extension of the immigrants' protections in return for a permanent border wall they have called ineffective, costly and immoral.

 

White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders told reporters on Wednesday Trump has made calls to Democrats.

 

Barclays economists said on Wednesday they reduced their outlook on U.S. economic growth in the first quarter to an annualised rate of 2.5 percent from an earlier projection of 3.0 percent as a result of the shutdown.

 

Furloughed federal workers are struggling to make ends meet during the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. Many have turned to unemployment assistance, food banks and other support, or have sought new jobs.

 

A Reuters/Ipsos poll last week found more than half of Americans blame Trump for the shutdown even as he has sought to shift blame to Democrats after saying last month he would be "proud" to close the government for border security.

 

(Additional reporting by Yasmeen Abutaleb, Roberta Rampton, Eric Beech, Susan Heavey and Doina Chiacu; Writing by John Whitesides; Editing by Will Dunham and Bill Trott)

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-01-24

[dcutman]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

Barclays economists said on Wednesday they reduced their outlook on U.S. economic growth in the first quarter to an annualised rate of 2.5 percent from an earlier projection of 3.0 percent as a result of the shutdown.

So the cost of this shutdown has far exceeded the funding Trump requested. "Nanchuck" will continue to cut their noses off to despite their own faces just to deny Trump one of his main campaign promises, and a large part why he was ****Comments about people's votes have been removed to remove the off topic pedantic discussion****

Edited January 24, 2019 by metisdead

[Lacessit]

It's a battle of wills. Trump opened his mouth once too often ( what am I saying? ) and announced he would be proud to own the shutdown. The Democrats have every incentive to keep rubbing his nose in that statement.

[Lungstib]

The Wall and border security are two completely different issues. The wall, like many before it, will be bypassed and overcome. Modern technology, more camera's, sea patrols, checks at legal borders are the answer, especially to the oft touted drug problem. Its not difficult, but we have two sides who have set their hearts on 'winning' and that's all they care about.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Lungstib said:

The Wall and border security are two completely different issues. The wall, like many before it, will be bypassed and overcome. Modern technology, more camera's, sea patrols, checks at legal borders are the answer, especially to the oft touted drug problem. Its not difficult, but we have two sides who have set their hearts on 'winning' and that's all they care about.

 It’s not simply about winning.

 

As Pelosi rightly points out, if Trump is allowed to get his way by means of shutting down the government and blackmailing the nation he’ll do again, and again.

 

It stops here and now.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies about the Electoral College/popular vote have been removed.

 

Members like to be pedantic and focus on a snippet of a member's post to continue in an off topic manner.  The post containing that pedantic snippet has been edited so that the pedantic semantic posters will not continue the discussion in an off topic manner about the Electoral College/popular vote.

Edited January 24, 2019 by metisdead

[dcutman]

28 minutes ago, Lungstib said:

The Wall and border security are two completely different issues. The wall, like many before it, will be bypassed and overcome. Modern technology, more camera's, sea patrols, checks at legal borders are the answer, especially to the oft touted drug problem. Its not difficult, but we have two sides who have set their hearts on 'winning' and that's all they care about.

This liberal argument about technology is so flawed in so many ways, its a joke.

This wall seems to be fairly effective and has been for hundreds of years.

As like many liberal dem Trump haters, the man that lives behind this wall, enjoys his security, and would never give it up, even though he calls for building bridges not walls

Edited January 24, 2019 by dcutman

[neeray]

More tunnels just discovered under the existing wall !

 

Wow, these wall things are really great. Over, under, probably through. $5.7B come $25B in a few years and problem still not solved.

 

Better listen to the Dems and seek alternative methods for border control, other than the DJT election promise of a "paid-for-by-Mexico" wall.

[attrayant]

The good thing about channeling extra funds into measures like technology and staff is that the funding can (if desired) be rescinded in subsequent year's budgets.  It's not a permanent stain on the country like a wall would be.

[quandow]

Here's the REAL problem: If the Democrats cave in then Trump will know he can act the child and hold his breath every time he want's them to acquiesce on some nonsensical whim and he'll get it. He is getting HAMMERED in the polls and he DOES pay attention to those. He doesn't read security briefings but he watches the polls like a hawk!

[spidermike007]

The problem with the shutdown, is that it is being waged over a fake crisis on the border, and Trump has picked a fight with a women who has alot of political experience, and is ten times the negotiator he is. He has never really developed any negotiating skills. And the meetings with Kim, Putin, the EU, Canada, NATO, and others have proven this. So have his five massive bankruptcies. So, he has backed himself into a corner, and continues digging the very deep Trump hole. His incompetency is really showing itself, at this state of his self made crisis.

 

As of now, based on a broad survey of political scientists and historians, he is rated 44th. Only Cleveland fared worse. Among conservatives, he is rated 40th. And that is now. Imaging how the future will judge this man?

[Hanaguma]

Walls/barriers work. It's pretty simple, otherwise they wouldn't exist in places outside the US context. 

 

They aren't perfect, but that is not being claimed. Nor are they necessary for the entire border area, but that is not being claimed either. They ARE effective in certain situations and certain locations.  Remember the migrant caravans of last November? What would have happened had their not been a wall between Tijuana and the US when they stormed the border in an attempt to enter the US illegally?

 

It has become a political football rather than a national security issue for a number of reasons:

 

1/ Chuck and Nan can't stomach giving in to Trump, no matter the merits of the situation

2/ Chuck and Nan face growing resistance from the younger, farther left leaning members of their own party, and may be put out of power if they compromise

3/ It looks a tad hypocritical for Pelosi to call a wall "immoral" when she has a stone wall herself, surrounding her 20 million dollar winery/estate in the Napa Valley.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

 

3/ It looks a tad hypocritical for Pelosi to call a wall "immoral" when she has a stone wall herself, surrounding her 20 million dollar winery/estate in the Napa Valley.

If I was going to argue equally childish, I could counter that “It looks a tad hypocritical” for Trump to ask for a wall when he himself in the White House doesn’t need one around him. 

 

Could it be that different situations require different solutions? Well, I guess that’s “a tad” too complex for Trump voters. 

[farcanell]

3 hours ago, dcutman said:

So the cost of this shutdown has far exceeded the funding Trump requested. "Nanchuck" will continue to cut their noses off to despite their own faces just to deny Trump one of his main campaign promises, and a large part why he was ****Comments about people's votes have been removed to remove the off topic pedantic discussion****

Or... trump will continue to damage the US economy and waste money, in his attempt to subvert the checks and balances installed in the constitution, by the founding fathers, and further ammendmentd

 

the money lost, now and going forward, is the cost of protecting the institution that is the bipartisan government of the United States.

 

and.... denying trump the ability to fulfill a campaign promise is a dubious argument.... he promised a wall that Mexico would pay for.... ergo, with Mexico not paying, the campaign promise has failed already. In view of this, he needs to readdress financing the wall. This needs bipartisan agreement... this needs negotiation... this is missing, in lieu of holding the nation hostage by trumps shutdown.

 

easy solution... open the government, and negotiate on the sticking point, which is the border security spending budget..... negotiate vs blackmail.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Remember the migrant caravans of last November? What would have happened had their not been a wall between Tijuana and the US when they stormed the border in an attempt to enter the US illegally?

Maybe... just maybe... that’s why spending was approved for walls at that part of the border.... smart policy/ spending in years gone by... right?

 

similarly, spending on barriers for other parts of the border, have been approved, as they are demonstrably nessesary.

 

demonstrably nessesary... follow that line of thinking for a moment... border security experts need to detail where walls are demonstrably nessesary, and seek funding to build these barriers.... this is the test that trumps demand for money fails.... 

 

In making his campaign policy, he did not fully consult experts in the field, but rather found a rallying cry that excited his base and looked good on the Telly.... probably not the best way to make policy.

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

1/ Chuck and Nan can't stomach giving in to Trump, no matter the merits of the situation

2/ Chuck and Nan face growing resistance from the younger, farther left leaning members of their own party, and may be put out of power if they compromise

3/ It looks a tad hypocritical for Pelosi to call a wall "immoral" when she has a stone wall herself, surrounding her 20 million dollar winery/estate in the Napa Valley

1/.... the merit has not been proved.... in fact, far from it, given the dramatically falling illegal crossings over the last decade, without the wall.

A/ prove the need

 

2/... chuck and Nancy are seemingly acting in accordance with their party and , given recent polling, the will of the nation

B/ Trump needs to act according to the will of his party, and the will of the people, as a whole, vs the will of his fan base

 

3/Pelosi has a wall which she paid for... it’s not paid for by the people. In mentioning the wall around her property, you need to state the why of it.... eg, every horse stud has walls, they keep the horses in their pens (or cages, if you like)

C/trump can afford 5billion for a wall, if he wants to build one personally... if he wants to use public funding, he needs to fully explain the why of it, and garner bipartisan support, which is what a responsible government would do.

[farcanell]

3 hours ago, dcutman said:

This liberal argument about technology is so flawed in so many ways, its a joke.

This wall seems to be fairly effective and has been for hundreds of years.

As like many liberal dem Trump haters, the man that lives behind this wall, enjoys his security, and would never give it up, even though he calls for building bridges not walls

Good one.... a picture of a wall, built over many centuries, that completely surrounds a soverign land locked political entity, augmented by continual military guardianship and high tech surveillance, which guards a staggering wealth, and was funded by agreement. (Or autocratic rule, dependent on the pope of the day)

 

mmmm ... so not comparing apples for apples.... what a surprise.

 

but hey... the Vatican, right? So... what would Jesus do about the humanitarian crisis at the southern border?

 

 Feed them, cloth them, show them charity, house them, give them hope.... really? The Vatican.... ????????????... much like trump, you didn’t put much thought into that argument.

Edited January 24, 2019 by farcanell

[Becker]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Walls/barriers work. It's pretty simple, otherwise they wouldn't exist in places outside the US context. 

 

They aren't perfect, but that is not being claimed. Nor are they necessary for the entire border area, but that is not being claimed either. They ARE effective in certain situations and certain locations. 

Yes, and that's why they're already in place.

[Jingthing]

Walls/barriers work. It's pretty simple, otherwise they wouldn't exist in places outside the US context. 
 
They aren't perfect, but that is not being claimed. Nor are they necessary for the entire border area, but that is not being claimed either. They ARE effective in certain situations and certain locations.  Remember the migrant caravans of last November? What would have happened had their not been a wall between Tijuana and the US when they stormed the border in an attempt to enter the US illegally?
 
It has become a political football rather than a national security issue for a number of reasons:
 
1/ Chuck and Nan can't stomach giving in to Trump, no matter the merits of the situation
2/ Chuck and Nan face growing resistance from the younger, farther left leaning members of their own party, and may be put out of power if they compromise
3/ It looks a tad hypocritical for Pelosi to call a wall "immoral" when she has a stone wall herself, surrounding her 20 million dollar winery/estate in the Napa Valley.

We can discuss policies when the bully demagogue president releases the hostages and reopens the government. He had 2 years of total control before to get what he wanted. Now he goes nutso and takes hostages the moment he loses total control. Not acceptable. You're living in a fantasy world acting like this is a normal situation. It is the opposite. Again. Reopen the government and good real faith negotiations can begin on a whole spectrum of immigration and border security issues including some additional barriers. If the democrats cave to the bully wannabe dictator on this he will continue to take hostages for everything else.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Enoon]

3 hours ago, dcutman said:

This liberal argument about technology is so flawed in so many ways, its a joke.

This wall seems to be fairly effective and has been for hundreds of years.

As like many liberal dem Trump haters, the man that lives behind this wall, enjoys his security, and would never give it up, even though he calls for building bridges not walls

 

The Vatican State is independent of Italy.

 

But maintains an open border with it.

 

No passports required to cross its border.

 

How do you like that idea?

 

 

 

[Tug]

The trump non negoating bulldozing bulley boy bs stops here this is a democracy not Uganda you are Donald trump a failed president not some to bit dictator man up and get this government open

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, dcutman said:

This liberal argument about technology is so flawed in so many ways, its a joke.

This wall seems to be fairly effective and has been for hundreds of years.

As like many liberal dem Trump haters, the man that lives behind this wall, enjoys his security, and would never give it up, even though he calls for building bridges not walls

How many illegals want to sneak into the Vatican to start with? Stupid comparison.

[farcanell]

8 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

How many illegals want to sneak into the Vatican to start with? Stupid comparison.

555... probably not many since the nazis at the end of World War Two, as they fled to Brazil via the “Vatican ratlines”

 

the wall didn’t stop them then... lol... ergo the wall didn’t work ????????????

[Jingthing]

Nonnegotiating?  Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he just make a proposal a couple of days ago?  One that, as far as I can recall, was rejected without any attempt at negotiation by the Democrats.

You're wrong.

 

That wasn't negotiating. It contained poison pills and was not developed with any democratic input. It wasn't an invitation to further discussion. It was take it or leave it while he still holds hostages.

 

The last time Pelosi was at the white house to talk the clown in chief said bye bye and walked out of the room.

 

 

The democrats are now doing the only sensible thing to do when facing a destructive troll. Ignoring him.

 

The government must be reopened for there to be any legit negotiations. Free the hostages.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[farcanell]

10 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nonnegotiating?  Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he just make a proposal a couple of days ago?  One that, as far as I can recall, was rejected without any attempt at negotiation by the Democrats.

 

???????????? please explain how the proposal differed from the previous, vs rewording and resubmitting the same proposal as before, which is creative writing, not negotiating.

[Jingthing]

Jing;

 

It's obvious from the juvenile choice of words that you use to describe the President that you don't like him. We get it. You aren't alone in that either, so no need to constantly virtue signal about your displeasure. Hyperbole is generally not a great first step in a constructive dialogue.

 

There are no hostages, no concentration camps, no dictators. Just politicians doing what they do best- waste time and spout sound bites. Most Americans don't even notice that a few non-essential parts of the federal government are shut down. In the long run, that may be the biggest takeaway from this situation- the government has too many workers and not enough work.

Yes there are hostages. The current president deserves no respect and the majority of Americans get that now.

 

To heck with Fox News BS calling opponents of potus virtue signalers. To support that amoral troll hostage taker demagogue is vice signaling.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[farcanell]

18 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

There are no hostages,

???????????????? By definition... hostages include;

 

a person who is held by one of two belligerent parties as security against carrying out an agreement.

 

so arguably there are hostages.... hostages with special privedges, which include not being confined, which historically, is not unusual

 

Did you include dictators and concentration camps in your post, to further muddy the waters, confuse the issue, obsfugation and attempt to belittle the other posters point of view?

Edited January 24, 2019 by farcanell

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed. 

[johnnybangkok]

Here are the reasons why the wall is a bad idea:-

 

1. There is already 654 miles of barriers along the southern border covering the most vulnerable areas.

2. No one can actually come up with a true cost of the wall - Estimates range from $12bn to $70bn. 650 miles of fencing built under George W. cost $7bn - and that was just fencing. Nothing like what Trump is proposing. (just so that you can get an idea of numbers as everyone now bandy's around billions; 1 million seconds is nearly 12 days. 1 billion seconds is nearly 32 YEARS).

3. Since it's peak in 2000, illegal southern border crossings have steadily declined from 1.6 million to just under 400k.  

4. Most illegal immigration (approx. 700k per year) comes from people overstaying their visa's. These people flew into the country.

4. Every congress person along the southern border (including Republicans) oppose the wall, arguing it will NOT improve security. Republican Will Hurd (Texas 23rd district) went as far as to say '..it's the most expensive and least effective way to do border security'. 

5. A wall will not stop drugs - apart from the fact that most drugs come in via the sea, tunnels or private flights, what does come in over the border is smuggled in through legal ports of entry. 

 

No sensible person opposes border security or clamping down on illegal immigration. They just oppose the ineffectiveness of this wall and the complete waste of money it will be. Trump and his people must know this and since he has had 2 years when Republicans controlled both houses and still didn't get it passed, the only conclusion must be this is a political stunt to re-animate his illiberal base who love nothing more than to blame immigrants for all their problems. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by johnnybangkok

[Berkshire]

32 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Most Americans don't even notice that a few non-essential parts of the federal government are shut down. In the long run, that may be the biggest takeaway from this situation- the government has too many workers and not enough work.

Geez man, how can you make such uninformed comments?  There are IRS employees working on our tax returns--although we never see them.  Same with Coast Guard personnel protecting our sea lanes.  FBI personnel investigating criminals and gangs.  National parks personnel.  Air traffic controllers.  And so on....thousands more examples.  These are fellow Americans and human beings.  In your defense of all things Trump, you've lost your humanity.