Two Russian Women Killed At Jomthien Beach

[DrDweeb]

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

[Falux2]

I think blaming it on a falang is a very effective system to make the problem go away.

[DrDweeb]

Two killed young women deserves far more respect than generally shown in this forum. The FACTS states that they were merely tourists on a two-week group-holiday, and they resided in a tourist-hotel only 100m away from the shooting-incident.

My sincere condolence to their family!

Russia - especially in this time of year - is not very warm or cozy, and if you were Russian on a two-week holiday in a tropical country, you also just might want to spend your time on the beach with a friend and some beverage - even at 5 a.m. in the morning. Maybe especially at 5 a.m. in the morning, as you'll almost have the beach for yourself, and it is even quite possible to have a swim at that time.

Many Thais - regardless of status and income - do own a gun! I've surely seen my share of them, and you don't even have to be in Jomtien or Pattaya. Men (locals) who are staying up (in the streets) to 5 a.m. are almost for sure drunk or up to no good, even in my country (Denmark). And if two Russian ladies have been given a drunken beach chair concessionaire a hard time, perhaps laughing at his (to them!) utter ridiculous demands for rent in the middle of the night, he could very easily have been worked up to a level where he'd grab his motorcycle, drive home and get his gun to show those farang b****s... It's my impression, that Russians aren't very popular in the Pattaya area - and if he thought, that those bad-mouthed women, who "helped themselves" with HIS chairs and refused to pay for the privilege, were nothing but unwelcome shameless prostitutes - then he might even had thought that he was both righteous AND could get away with it... The police initially also thought the girls were prostitutes, and it was a mafia-hit. The FACT also is that a beach chair concessionaire didn't show up for work after the incident, and is now wanted for questioning by the local police.

But all above is also just speculations - showing off my own particular prejudice and urge to compare the case-facts presented, to my personal experiences and gut-feel.... Please regard my speculations as such, and I'd be the last to be offended if you just ignore them.

So, here's my opinion: before going around slandering ppl one don't know, it would be prudent to evaluate the facts presented for one in advance. And one might not have look so stupid and shameful, as one must do now.... Keep your prejudicial racist mouth shut if you haven't got anything good to say. Why not "grow up and get a life" before blatantly trying to destroy others?!? This is IMHO the problem of the world; everyone has an opinion about everything, and a strong urge to show it off - no matter what. Where's the humility and decency of for example just saying: what a tragic incident, I hope that the police find out who has done it and why, so that they might better prevent anything similar happening in the future. No, it's far better to stir up even more fear and hatred, with absolutely NO facts or even a thread of evidence to back it up... <sigh>

//Loke

**post removed --english only per forum rules***

Dr. Dweeb

Edited February 25, 2007 by sbk

[robint]

now here s a real story for the BBC

could be worthy of alistair mc clean

[DrDweeb]

As Russian women expert , I can say that some of them make-up when they go to the beach.

Lol!!

You should see them turn up to the fitness centre in full battle gear, Chanel headbands, Versace T-Shirts, you name it !

You more or less have to see it to believe it - and I have seen it.

Dweeb

[britmaveric]

Plot thickens....foreign suspect? Hmmmm looking more and more like a gang style hit.

So who bought their tickets???? (Media made a point to mention this again)

[llso]

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

WOW!

Just because one poster makes a reference "Thank God" A very common phrase in the English language . Don't see how that equates to fundamental Christian Values.

Understandable given the near hundred year history of state sponsored Atheism in Russia.

LL

[leftcross]

thai rath said today that the girls were probably brought over here by russian/thai mafia (working together maybe) to be prostitutes. however, the girls thought better of it once they arrive and decided to have a two week holiday instead, hence the lead poisoning on the beach.

the wife saw the picture of them sprawled out and said 'they are prostitutes because they are drinking mekong whiskey'. what a lovely thought.

[DrDweeb]

I am a bit curious how one of these girls, who were both facing forward sitting in beach chairs, was shot in the back.

Yes, I noticed the entry wound. Is the a hole in the beach chair to correspond to the injury?

Dweeb

[aqua4]

the crime scene looks fishy to me

a tabel with 5 chairs

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/image.php?...002484/0002.jpg

but only 1 foodprint

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/image.php?...002484/0005.jpg

the drinks for only one person are placed at the very smal corner of the table,

but no sign, what the other 4 chairowner prefer to drink, so also no DNA mark possible to find.

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/image.php?...002484/0001.jpg

(I could bet on it, that there are no high speed blood drops on the glas or on the bottle,

cause that was not the real crime scene)

the blond girl looks, like her body is placed there

http://www.pattayadailynews.com/image.php?...002484/0000.jpg

no defence in the body language, the chairs are still in line to each other,

too fishy

I would think you are correct! Looking at the murder scene off the Thai Rath this morning and the pictures off the internet, I do think that it might not have been the crime scene as odd as it might sound.

There appears to be no blood, either on the table or on her lap considering the angle of the bullet wound. The blond was shot from the rear, yet she is not slumped over forward by the force of the bullet. If you enlarge the pictures, the blond has no beach sand on the side of her feet, they are clean, yet there is only one pair of shoes on the ground. Noting the angle of the white shoes, it would belong to the black haired one. Then again the shoes on the table are also on the side of the black haired one.

Everything is neat. Clean flip flops on the table and as neatly arranged as the drinks. The black haired one has massive bleeding but there appears to be NO blood on the chair or on the sand under the chair. The blond one was shot from the back yet there appears to be no blood on her top infront? From the angle of the bullet wound, she was shot from the top rear end. You can however still see the blood running down her chest as she was slumping in the chair at the correct angle. She was shot while topless? She died of a single bullet wound through her chest, or was she suffocated first and then shot soon afterwards on the beach?

They might have found 9mm bullet casings, but I would guess a .38 special from the bullet wound.

The crime scene does look suspect!

Ok Britmaveric, you appear to be correct. They had been a few girls brought over who had been ordered from Thailand and had their tickets paid on this side. 4 went North, these two went South and changed their minds as they did not like something. They got hit by Boris the Bouncer. The guy on the CCTV gave long strides not short Asian strides so yes it looks like it was a falang.

Edited February 25, 2007 by aqua4

[DrDweeb]

2 All:

Just try to judge this case without prejudice to Russians. Average Russian is much more honest and intelligent than avarage farang in Pattaya.

No one is making sweeping generalizations that all Russians are bad, on the contrary, most Russians I've met are happy, jovial people and are very easy to get along with. It's just a known fact that the Russian mafia is operating in the area and there are many Russian prostitutes operating in the area as well.

The women may not have been prostitutes at all, but this angle can not be ignored when trying to determine who the assailant or assailants were.

Not all Italians are members of the Mob!

Nobody has mentioned that as many as 50% of the Russian Mafia are Jewish to include at least 3 of the major crime bosses.

Dammit. I thought we were going to get to "Thread closed" without blaming the "Jews".

Oh well, hope springs eternal as they say, though sometimes I fail to see why.

Anyway, the religious affiliation of the heads of the russian OC families is interesting, but highly irrelevant I think. Can you explain why it should be even mildly relevant to the discussion at hand?

Dweeb.

[bingobongo]

Soft targets? Two female tourists shot dead in Pattaya are the latest victims of increasing violence against foreigners throughout Thailand.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/travel/t070225.html

Edited February 25, 2007 by bingobongo

[britmaveric]

Follow the dosh and I think this is where you will find the killer. Holiday paid/arranged by someone in thailand.

Something else is unusual - ok watching the sunrise, wouldnt you face the water rather than the side for a better view?

[DrDweeb]

It amazes me how some long-time farangs living in Thailand still don't understand that "face" is very important to many Thais. I think these girls caused the chair vendor to lose face EARLIER in the evening. He obtained a gun, perhaps his own or borrowed; and came back and shot them when very few other people were around.

Remember the traffic cop in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago? In the early morning hours (around 8am if memory is correct) a Thai driver yelled at him causing him to lose face. He promptly shot the driver, driver's wife, young teenager (girl) riding with them (she was on her knees begging not to be shot), and then he shot himself. Four dead in a few seconds over a loss of "face". Yet many posters on this forum poo-poo face as if it doesn't exist.

That is so sad. That story had far more emotional impact than my initial reading of the story behind this thread. I am contemplating as to why this might be so.

Anyway, it happens not just in Thailand. When people snap, it is best if they are not carrying percussion side arms, that is for certain. "Face" in Thailand, same thing different name somewhere else.

Dweeb.

[Marc S.]

The case should besolved quickly:

Who paid the tickets from Thailand knows the killer.

[DrDweeb]

Some people don't beleive me when I say crime is out of control in Pattaya and Jomtien. I have been in Thailand a long time moved to Jomtien to get away from the crime in Pattaya and now Jomtien is almost as bad. I hope the International press pick up on this so people will know of the dangers that face them by coming here for a holiday. Loosing face is no longer an excuse for Thais or anyone else. I only have 35 days left in Thailand thank God. I will have to stay covert in my condo.

P.S Anyone looking for a condo to rent in Jomtien please PM. me.

Cheers Tony

I have been in Jomtien area since 1999. Yes it is definitely getting violent and ugly. I have moved away now and had need to come into Pattaya in 2nd Road the other night and 2 bar girls and a mamasan dragged me out of my car as I parked it in front of their beer bar. I was actually going across the road. The threw me around a bit and it seemed like there was 6-7 of them within seconds. Not surprisingly the 1,500 baht in my shirt pocket went missing and THEY called the police accusing me as having damaged one of the girl's motorcycles as I parked my car!

No prizes for guessing what happened next eh?? Yep the next day I was compelled to pay for damage on the opposite side of the motorcycle that it should have been if indeed it was parked where they claimed. Oh yeah, that and no corresponding scratch on my car.

Yeah right... this is out of control and I will always always hate Pattaya, and anything to do with it. Sadly Jomtien is infected also now. I hope the Russians report this widely. I hope they stop coming to Pattaya or Jomtien until the police can start stopping these problems rather than being an integral part of it...

Pattaya is the bumho_le of Thailand. Jomtien is the armpits of Thailand. Pathetic places. Tragic about the girls.

The sad truth is this: until the tourists stop coming to these shiteholes.........nothing will change.

20+ golf courses is one reason to visit. Plenty of others I can think off from the top of my head. I never spent an uninteresting or bad day in or around Pattaya.

So, might I suggest that you take your disaffected attitude and self righteousness somewhere else. If you want to know about "shiteholes" I will gladly direct you to some. Pattaya, has it's faults, some of which have and are being addressed. There are IMHO plenty of alternatives in Thailand, some better, some worse, for vacations and for residence - this is a personal, relative judgement. Either way, I still visit Pattaya every time I am in LOS.

Your bombastic value judgements serve no useful purpose. Your fundamental Christian viewpoint also shows and is also irrelevant in this thread - if anywhere.

Now, as for the Russian presence - another issue. Having spent a year in Moscow, and plenty of time in Pattaya, I allow myself to make some observatios.

• Fact: There are plenty of Russians who have the financial capital, and opportunity to take vacations to tropical places.
  
• Fact: Just like the Chinese, English, Irish, German, Japanese ... the Russians would like a Russian restaurant or two in the vicinity, as well as some Russian speaking locals. Not all Russians speak English! Just one more ethnic food to the colourful mix in Pattaya
  
• Fact: Rssian tour operators and other businessmen move in to fill the need.
  
• Fact: The increase in Russian tourists increases the number of resident Russians to meet the language and cultural needs.
  
• Supposition: Organised crime sees a growing market and moves in, build lavish, expensively fitted restaurants etc. as laundries. Legitimate business is identifiable from this style of establishment for the trained eye.
  
• Prediction: The local"crime syndicates" see this as a threat and "turf wars" result.
  

Now, this scenario has played out countless times all over the world. It is playing out in Pattaya now. The only issue is who will win - which group will turn out to be the most brutal, and how many people will die in the crossfire.

In Europe, the eastern europeans are by far the most brutal, and appear to win everywhere, except perhaps Italy.

In Asia, I am not certain that the local forces are without the ability to defend themselves, and they have cultural position and "the law" on their side.

I have left out the issue of Russian prostitutes, since I do not understand their market in Thailand. There would historically appear to be a clear link to organised crime and prostitution, so it is probably in the mix. Protection rackets etc. The two deaths that started this thread may be related.

No matter what, this tragic event may have some repercussions for Pattaya and Thailand's tourist industry - though the list of dead tourists keeps growing, and the number of tourists keeps increasing - so I could be wrong there.

If these two girls were indeed tourists, shot by a chair operator (which I think reasonably unlikely, but clearly with a probability greater than zero) then I will be personally surprised.

Dr. Dweeb.

WOW!

Just because one poster makes a reference "Thank God" A very common phrase in the English language . Don't see how that equates to fundamental Christian Values.

Understandable given the near hundred year history of state sponsored Atheism in Russia.

LL

It was his platitude about "tragic girls" which is a standard phrase used by the christian moralists to describe all and every unchaste girl not in wedlock that invoked my ire. I have a problem with religious fundamentalism being applied in cultures built on different precepts.

Perhaps I was a little hasty, but I will wager that the "tragic" part in the posters mind is that there are "prostitutes", which offends his christian based sensibilities and teachings.

I hereby retract my interpretation of the poster's comment on this specific point. I have not, however altered my judgement.

cheers

Dweeb

[undercover]

This is going to take quite a while to sort out as the police have to come up with a half believable story, just like the plastic bag over the head hands tied behind the back suicides.

[DrDweeb]

Follow the dosh and I think this is where you will find the killer. Holiday paid/arranged by someone in thailand.

Something else is unusual - ok watching the sunrise, wouldnt you face the water rather than the side for a better view?

Or face East ?

Dweeb

[Thehedonist]

It amazes me how some long-time farangs living in Thailand still don't understand that "face" is very important to many Thais. I think these girls caused the chair vendor to lose face EARLIER in the evening. He obtained a gun, perhaps his own or borrowed; and came back and shot them when very few other people were around.

Remember the traffic cop in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago? In the early morning hours (around 8am if memory is correct) a Thai driver yelled at him causing him to lose face. He promptly shot the driver, driver's wife, young teenager (girl) riding with them (she was on her knees begging not to be shot), and then he shot himself. Four dead in a few seconds over a loss of "face". Yet many posters on this forum poo-poo face as if it doesn't exist.

A friend of mine was in Pattaya with his buddy. A young Thai male came up to my friend and tried to hand him one on those "soapy cards". My friend politely said, "mai ow kop". His STUPID friend told the Thai guy to "F***Off". A small squirmish broke out but was soon broken up. The two farangs got on their rented motorbike and left. About 3 hours later they were back at the same location. As they got off the motorbike the STUPID farang was hit between the eyes by a thick-walled piece of the blue PVC pipe. Split his forehead badly and he had to go to the hospital. It was the same Thai he had earlier told to "F***Off". Face is very real here for many Thai....the STUPID farang is lucky he wasn't knifed or even shot. Some Thai will wait months to extract revenge for someone causing them to lose face.

Russian mafia?

Read this with interest, This story is on the same subject.

A while ago in Patters myself, and a g/f went to the Elephant sanctuary for the day, we booked a Baht bus to take us there, and pick us up at 4.pm.

Well you can guess we paid him the total, and of course he did not return to get us.

The g/f who wrote his Rego down was real mad with him and told the tourist policeman there what happened.

Too cut a long story short we made our own way back, and the policeman gave the taxi man untill 11.am the next day to pay us back half the fare or he would do whatever to him.

Well we waited on the corner of an arranged street and sure enough he came allong with a passenger, and handed over the money to my G/f and made a jesture with his hand like a gun, and said in Thai to her "Your both dead". She said lets get out of here.

To be honest I would not have bothered with all this after all it was peanuts to me, but the g/f insisted.

I just laughed all this off, but thinking about it now I am sure glad he was not armed at the time, or we may have been history.

Description Small evil man with a monkey face, aged about 40, with his g/f that rides arround all time with him ! driving a Toyota pick up ! LOL

[lannarebirth]

It amazes me how some long-time farangs living in Thailand still don't understand that "face" is very important to many Thais. I think these girls caused the chair vendor to lose face EARLIER in the evening. He obtained a gun, perhaps his own or borrowed; and came back and shot them when very few other people were around.

Remember the traffic cop in Chiang Mai a couple of years ago? In the early morning hours (around 8am if memory is correct) a Thai driver yelled at him causing him to lose face. He promptly shot the driver, driver's wife, young teenager (girl) riding with them (she was on her knees begging not to be shot), and then he shot himself. Four dead in a few seconds over a loss of "face". Yet many posters on this forum poo-poo face as if it doesn't exist.

That is so sad. That story had far more emotional impact than my initial reading of the story behind this thread. I am contemplating as to why this might be so.

Anyway, it happens not just in Thailand. When people snap, it is best if they are not carrying percussion side arms, that is for certain. "Face" in Thailand, same thing different name somewhere else.

Dweeb.

I just don't buy what people term as "face". What it appears to be, is a lack of reason and very poorly developed coping mechanisms. The East never had an "Age Of Reason" and therefore much of their thinking is positively medieval in nature;

[blue eyes]

Three words.......Not Random Hit

[Pakboong]

2 All:

Just try to judge this case without prejudice to Russians. Average Russian is much more honest and intelligent than avarage farang in Pattaya.

No one is making sweeping generalizations that all Russians are bad, on the contrary, most Russians I've met are happy, jovial people and are very easy to get along with. It's just a known fact that the Russian mafia is operating in the area and there are many Russian prostitutes operating in the area as well.

The women may not have been prostitutes at all, but this angle can not be ignored when trying to determine who the assailant or assailants were.

Not all Italians are members of the Mob!

Nobody has mentioned that as many as 50% of the Russian Mafia are Jewish to include at least 3 of the major crime bosses.

Dammit. I thought we were going to get to "Thread closed" without blaming the "Jews".

Oh well, hope springs eternal as they say, though sometimes I fail to see why.

Anyway, the religious affiliation of the heads of the russian OC families is interesting, but highly irrelevant I think. Can you explain why it should be even mildly relevant to the discussion at hand?

Dweeb.

I don't know what percentage of Russian girls work as prostitutes but I am pretty sure there is no statistical significance in the number.

Occassionally happenings have statistacally significant aspects such as the St Valentines Day massacre in 1929 being a fued between Al Capone's Italian/Siclian family and Bugs Moran's Irish family. Of the 7 men killed that day, 6 were of one particular ethnic group. Irish is not an ethnic group. What's significant about that? I have met only one person in my life who is/was aware of this little piece of statistical significance. Even though the event has been written about and had movies made in endless numbers, few know anything about the 7 victims. Anything that occurs in numbers so far out of normal distribution becomes statistically significant. And therefor, relevant.

[Heng]

They might have found 9mm bullet casings, but I would guess a .38 special from the bullet wound.

Presuming that you do not know at what range they were shot from and you do not know what type of ammo (of either 9 mm or .38 spl) used, why would you assume .38 over 9 mm just from looking at the photos?

[blue eyes]

Now that I have had a few moments to look over the posted photos.My opinon is.............The woman where drugged / incohearant before they where shot,in place at the crime scene in the photos.If they could move they would have after the shots looking at the possible location of shots.It is not like the movies.But it apears that they have not,moved after being shot that is. The color of the skin in different locations the blood flow and amount does seem to be correct.But hay I am only looking at a few non offical photos.They would have been incohearant and placed in that location and then shot.The look of the scean is the indicating factor.

[Meg_2003]

They both look like they have been dragged onto the chairs. The blonde is sat on the wooden part of the deckchair which I imagine wouldnt be very comfortable, The positions of the legs both look like they have been dragged there.. There is no blood on the blondes towel??? It certainly looks like their bodies have been set, it doesnt look natural to me.. And the glass on the table looks clean, yet the whiskey is nearly gone, doesnt look like its been used at all...

[QualityTouristNumberOne]

My sympathies to the families of the two women and may they rest in peace.

I haven't the faintest idea what happened, but (come on! you knew there was going to be a "but" didn't you?) I often used to sit in a deckchair by the sea in the early hours of the morning on Huahin beach and on a couple of occasions was extremely startled when a Thai man appeared suddenly from the shadows at the back of the beach to demand that I pay for the privilege. The man (not always the same one!) always reeked of alcohol and was obviously, if not staggeringly, drunk. On closer inspection, he usually had one or two friends lurking in the shadows. My response, being a non-aggressive sort of person (or "coward"), was always to get out of the chair and continue my stroll along the beach, without paying. Although I never experienced anything worse than him shouting after me as I left, I always had the impression that violence was just under the surface, and I have long since stopped walking on the beach at night.

I suppose I should be grateful that I never got stabbed to death and subsequently featured on Thai Visa as undoubtedly being an ungrateful rent boy who had attempted to defraud his pimp.

Exactly!.

K.I.S.S.-keep it simple stupid!,if it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck,waddles like a duck.then its not a russian mafia hit...its a &lt;deleted&gt; duck!.

1. A thai man was seen fleeing the scene of the murder.

2. A thai man didnt turn up for work the next day.

3. the ladies in question had a public argument with...wait for it...A THAI MAN!(the one who didnt turn up for work)

As it happens,the reason I quoted Logpoacher is because almost the same thing happened to me in "Quiet" Hua Hin last valentines,

Myself and my girlfriend went for a romantic walk on the beach at 3am,and when we were a good mile or so from our hotel 3 young thai men appeared from nowhere and started following us,shouting at us in Thai.

My gf was very panicked(I wasn't too happy myself) but I'm not a stranger to conflict unfortunately as I've worked in various aspects of the security industry for 15 years now,So I told my gf to give me her stungun(I insist she carrries one) and held it by my side in my left hand,

I also casually lent down and picked a head sized rock off the beach as we passed,

I then started flicking the zapper on and off as we walked and also tossing the rock into the air,and after appraising the situation they buggered off to find an easier target.

Was I wrong to "act the hard man"? undoubtedly,if they'd had guns,or knives(I didnt see any),or just bigger balls then we would have been in serious trouble,but as it was,the deterrent worked and they jetted.

I'm not mentioning this so you can all admire how "hard" I am,I couldn't give a flanders for people's opinion,I'm bringing it up to point out that trouble can happen to anyone,at anytime,you don't have to be a "crack ho" to go for a walk on the ######ing beach and watch the sun come up people!.

I also lived in Pattaya(In Jomtien in fact) for 6 months,and during that time I saw much "shenanigans" on my late night beach walks,everything from sex to drugs to serious violence,

and as much bad shit in the daytime too,

Yes there are a lot of Russian "Ladies of the night" in Pattaya,but this case looks exactly like what it says on the tin.

I.E.-they were tourists who argued with a Thai man(maybe warped off his head on Yaa Baa?,I'm, surprised no-one's mentioned that,its the Thai "Curse of the working class" after all),

he came back and shot them.enda story.I hope he puts up a fight when the cops catch him and gets four 9mm bullets of his own.

Edit,

having seen the crime scene photo's and other evidence,I have to agree that this one is getting fishier by the minute...will have to read more and keep my opinions to myself til I do....

Edited February 25, 2007 by QualityTouristNumberOne

[seagull]

I hoped the Thai police investigators does checked out this thaivisa forum. As they sure would find many theories to this tragic murder of 2 ladies in the prime. I must admit that some of the postings here do have merits, some others do not. Our readers are very learned.

Still, my condolences to the families of the deceased, as I am sure they are grieving as we spoke. (or write).

Here's hoping that the murderer and conspirators will be apprehended and justice prevail.

[QualityTouristNumberOne]

"The victims, Miss Svirkova Liubov aged 25 and her friend Miss Tsimfer Tatiana aged 30, both Russian nationals, were in their beach clothes, and had been relaxing on the beach in the early morning. Both were shot with a 9mm pistol. Miss Liubov received 4 bullets, one in her left arm and three in her abdomen, Miss Tatiana received one in the back, both were shot at close range. Items on their table included a mobile phone, a pack of cigarettes, and two small bottles of Thai whisky; footprints showed the gunman had been wearing combat type shoes."

Supposition no. 1 million...

the bullet in miss Liubovs arm is the same one that killed Miss tatiana...a "through and through" as we CSI's call it(well,I WATCH csi,so surely that qualifies me to make half assed assumptions..

Apart from that,the scene looks really staged...by the killer(s)?.or the BiB? who knows,its a ropy situation though...started out looking fairly clean cut.

Now its like a can of worms with muddy water as sauce.

[wintermute]

"The victims, Miss Svirkova Liubov aged 25 and her friend Miss Tsimfer Tatiana aged 30, both Russian nationals, were in their beach clothes, and had been relaxing on the beach in the early morning. Both were shot with a 9mm pistol. Miss Liubov received 4 bullets, one in her left arm and three in her abdomen, Miss Tatiana received one in the back, both were shot at close range. Items on their table included a mobile phone, a pack of cigarettes, and two small bottles of Thai whisky; footprints showed the gunman had been wearing combat type shoes."

It's possible that Miss Tatiana got shot first from behind then the killer ran forward and shot Miss Liubov before she could get out of the chair.

It seems unlikely that they were both standing since at the first gunshot i'm sure one would have probably taken off running and died somewhere else. Maybe that's what happened though and the bodies were posed. Who knows..we probably won't ever know for sure because of the Keystone cops factor.

Edited February 25, 2007 by wintermute

[ollyrosee]

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did he have horns on his head too? that description must apply to all the baht bus drivers ,they were all cloned in the devils workshop !