Education not to blame for BNK48's Nazi moment: Official

[sanemax]

30 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

But to be even fairer, more weight could have gone to your argument hadn't he revealed himself racist in another post. But even then it would still possibly indicate as I noted though you'd be more correct in leaving room for doubt that perhaps it was just disconnected phraseology. However, his already vocalized racist commentary gives that weight to my argument that his word usage was less random and more telling.

The poster ,may or may not be a racist , I dont know , I havent read all of his posts , but in this instance he was describing the differences between the Nazi swastika and the Buddhist swastika and he meant the *other way* rather than mentally backwards .

   As Buddism is a Religion and not a Race , he could not be labelled as a racist , even if he were to suggest that Buddhism is backward , not that he did suggest that , mind you .

He didnt say that the Buddhist swastika is a backward symbol, he just stated that the hands go backwards , as in the other direction

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Hate for the little girl that made a bit of a mistake in judgement

 

Are you reading some other forum, or just suffering a lack of reading comprehension?

 

Few if any here have expressed any "hate" for the girl... And, it's hard to make a "mistake in judgement" when her wearing of that shirt involved no judgement on her part whatsoever. From all indications, she never thought about it, had no idea what it meant or why it would be offensive. There's no judgement there.

 

What people here have commented on at length is this episode illustrating the ignorance of the girl, and of Thai students in general, of something (a world war that even involved their country) that they SHOULD have at least some passing knowledge of... Not to mention, knowledge of a key figure in that war who goes down as one of the world's greatest and most evil mass murderers.

 

This topis is about ignorance, not hate or mistakes in judgement.

 

 

[bannork]

30 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That isnt a case of ignorance though, because he knew what the symbol and uniform meant , he wore that uniform as humor at a fancy dress party .

Good point, but he was ignorant of the furore his action would provoke. I wonder what British WW2 veterans who fought for King and Country thought when they saw the monarch's grandson wearing the swastika

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, bannork said:

Good point, but he was ignorant of the furore his action would provoke. I wonder what British WW2 veterans who fought for King and Country thought when they saw the monarch's grandson wearing the swastika

It was a private party with no outsiders invited , no media or anything and the understanding that whatever happened in the party , stays in the party .

  One of his friends later fell out with him and sold the photos to a newspaper

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

SPIN SPIN SPIN, I'm amazed that the Jew Mass Media has reached everyday Thailand. The Thai's didn't dondon it because Japan didn't allow it, that swastika was always around Asia. Blame the internet, not the Thais.

 

No, actually, let's blame ignorant Thais who don't know even the most basic elements of World War II, a war that involved their own country.

 

And, let's blame this thread for bringing all the Nazi sympathizers/apologists and anti-Semites to the fore.

 

[tifino]

41 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That isnt a case of ignorance though, because he knew what the symbol and uniform meant , he wore that uniform as humor at a fancy dress party .

His was a calculated choice; in that he has made sure it wasn't the actual Nazi pattern,

and that the one worn is a mirror of the Hindu one - and never at 45 degrees off!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 hours ago, LomSak27 said:

I'm somewhat suspicious of this ... not getting thai teachers off the hook but they do not teach WWII for a reason and that reason is probably a directive, or it was at one time so .... 

 

Are you trying to imply, the locals' involvement in that little encounter didn't end in glorious, patriotic victory for their superior armed forces???  

[sanemax]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Are you reading some other forum, or just suffering a lack of reading comprehension?

 

Few if any here have expressed any "hate" for the girl... And, it's hard to make a "mistake in judgement" when her wearing of that shirt involved no judgement on her part whatsoever. From all indications, she never thought about it, had no idea what it meant or why it would be offensive. There's no judgement there.

 

What people here have commented on at length is this episode illustrating the ignorance of the girl, and of Thai students in general, of something (a world war that even involved their country) that they SHOULD have at least some passing knowledge of... Not to mention, knowledge of a key figure in that war who goes down as one of the world's greatest and most evil mass murderers.

 

This topis is about ignorance, not hate or mistakes in judgement.

 

 

The ironic thing about this whole episode is the general opinion that she is ignorant and uneducated for not knowing what a Nazi Swastika was and that the Thai education system is lacking because she was unaware of what a Nazi swastika meant .

   And there are many Western posters in these threads who do not know the difference between a Nazi and Buddhist swastikas .

   Even after the differences have been pointed out , photos posted to show the difference , still some posters cannot tell the difference and they are saying "They are both the same shape though and that means they are the same thing"

[dpspike]

Let me see if I got this right. The education official said there is no need to change the curriculum just because students aren't learning anything. Guess that let's all the idiot Thai teachers off the hook.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, sanemax said:

   And there are many Western posters in these threads who do not know the difference between a Nazi and Buddhist swastikas .

 

 

Well, maybe they do not know and cannot see/discern, or, perhaps, they're just trying to be apologists for people who display and want to display the Nazi swastika...

[thaicurious]

19 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The poster ,may or may not be a racist , I dont know , I havent read all of his posts , but in this instance he was describing the differences between the Nazi swastika and the Buddhist swastika and he meant the *other way* rather than mentally backwards .

   As Buddhism is a Religion and not a Race , he could not be labelled as a racist , even if he were to suggest that Buddhism is backward , not that he did suggest that , mind you .

He didn't say that the Buddhist swastika is a backward symbol, he just stated that the hands go backwards , as in the other direction

Your taking "this instance" out of context luxuriates in countering reality, for numerous other posters prior to my post already had correctly identified the poster in question as racist by the evidence of in his own postings.

 

Being persnickety about terminology fails to bolster your argument because common usage doesn't split a racist hair from a bigoted one. Some people (granted, mostly the racist ones) call Jewish, for instance, a race, while others call it a religion. Either way doesn't make a Nazi less of a racist when he's gassing a religious Jewish person.

 

While there are differing cultural adherents of Buddhism and while within Buddhism there are various schools of thought, that this particular brand of Buddhism and its symbols happens to exhibit in Thailand doesn't add a tinge of racism to a bigoted remark towards it? Really?

 

Whether consciously intended or merely thoughtless, he disrespected people of Thailand and further revealed his character precisely in line with what he had already shown of himself as racists (or whatever other term you care to apply).

 

Even as you wrongly insist that the racist "didn't say that the Buddhist swastika is a backward symbol", he did in fact say that the Buddhist symbol is backwards of the Nazi symbol typifying hierarchical thinking justifying supremacism.

 

You don't believe that? Fine. Look at yourself in the mirror while you hold some writing. Ask yourself which is the backwards, you or your image in the mirror? You will not say that you are backwards, yes? You will say your image is backwards because your actual self is the superior to your inferior image. So that is the language your mind will choose to express itself. Still not convinced?

 

Now look at your hands, do you say that one hand is backwards of the other? Of course not. Because your one hand is not superior to your other hand. Your thumbs are in opposition, they are opposable thumbs (we hope), one is not backwards of the other.

 

Now tell us again which did the poster declare: the Nazi symbol backwards of the Thai Buddhist symbol or the Buddhist symbol backwards of the Nazi? He named the Nazi symbol superior; he named the Buddhist symbol inferior to or backwards of the Nazi.

 

Other than that he seems completely charming.

[HalfLight]

17 hours ago, White Christmas13 said:

Racist

I don't know so much. Im inclined to think he's not a racist - he's certainly not very good at it.

 

I'm reminded of Napoleons wise words "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity".

[HalfLight]

2 hours ago, DM07 said:

I agree, but please make clear, that you are NOT quoting me here!

Sorry, No I was NOT quoting you here. Any thing which suggests I was is an error, probably in my editing.

 

I hate this rotten computer, I wish that I could sell it.

It never does what I want it to, it only does what I tell it.

 

Oh Mother...

 

 

 

[DM07]

We have people with 2 problems here (except for the neo- fascists and Nazi- apologists , of course)

a) the ones, who claim over and over again, how the Nazi- swastika and the Hindu- religious symbol are the same.

It has been explained (by myself among others) again and again and if you still don't get it, you either don't have the mental capacity or an agenda!

b ) the BS about "ask people on the streets in the US (the UK...Europe...Australia...) and you will see, that even they don't know X, Y or Z" and then coming to the conclusion, that the education system in "the west" failed as much, as the one in Thailand!

Now: why is that BS?
The education- system in said countries TEACHES world- history, incl. WW2, Nazis, Hitler and other historical events and facts, outside of their respective "national"- history.

In Germany (fe) no one leaves school, without a minimum knowledge of the goings on between 1930 and 1945.

Some people chose not to pay attention, forget or are just plain stupid!

In Thailand on the other hand, hardly anything, except a whitewashed Thai- history is been taught!

So there is a BIG DIFFERENCE, between people being dumb and people, not even being taught basic historical facts.

 

The education- systems are not basically "same same"!

They are in fact, very different!

[metisdead]

Some offensive posts and the replies have been removed. 

[metisdead]

Troll posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Sydebolle]

Bottomline is, that she has (...ahem... had) no clue what the swastika stands for today. That, in my humble belief, is a matter of education or the absence thereof.

For the latter she cannot be blamed; this is the duty of a government in a country. Here the Ministry of Education has its trousers down to its ankles - a condition which is regretfully unchanged for decades. 

Turn the leaf, the girl apologized for something she quite obviously did not know, got the message, some diplomats have something to write home about and get on with life. 

Needless to say that I, for one, do not expect ANY change whatsoever in this country's education system as non- or poorly educated electorate make great (influenceable) voters - go figure! Those who could change anything are those who directly benefit of the Status Quo! 

[Jingthing]

I agree the shirt wearing woman wore it innocently.
Many of the comments here though -- not so much.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies about Prince Harry have been removed. 

[yosuik]

Thais avoid teaching world war 2 because lets not forget which side they effectively were on......sweep that under the rising sun carpet 

Probably because it causes "Inconvenience" to whatever era of Government.

Whether it's the English Education that doesn't talk or teach about the atrocities that were commited in the countries they conquered, or American Education that doesn't teach the things done to the Natives and still continuing to this day I would imagine not a single country has ever come clean or so forthcoming to be able to achieve innocence, so I would keep such topics in focus, unless you're a war veteran that has first hand experience of such.

But you're not, so you're just a troll or hater.

All Governments around the world are or have been doing atrocities and continue to do so, so there is no such thing where you can point a finger because they would have to be pointed everywhere at everyone, including your own.

Enjoy your position on a high horse which is basically morally lower than everyone else.

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[GinBoy2]

22 minutes ago, yosuik said:

Probably because it causes "Inconvenience" to whatever era of Government.

Whether it's the English Education that doesn't talk or teach about the atrocities that were commited in the countries they conquered, or American Education that doesn't teach the things done to the Natives and still continuing to this day I would imagine not a single country has ever come clean or so forthcoming to be able to achieve innocence, so I would keep such topics in focus, unless you're a war veteran that has first hand experience of such.

But you're not, so you're just a troll or hater.

All Governments around the world are or have been doing atrocities and continue to do so, so there is no such thing where you can point a finger because they would have to be pointed everywhere at everyone, including your own.

Enjoy your position on a high horse which is basically morally lower than everyone else.

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Actually on the Native American issue, you're wrong.

This is now very well taught. The Indian wars, systematic culling of the prairie bison herds to starve the Indians and the broken treaties, now is taught pretty well.

Both my daughters went through HS in the 90's, seen their books, it's all there

Edited January 30, 2019 by GinBoy2

[GeoMill]

20 hours ago, HalfLight said:

Oh puhlease stop with the hatred. We live in a westernised world, and of course easterners must have at least a passing familiarity with it. Thailand was a part of WW2, and it allied itself with the first power to reach it's borders, the Japanese.  Its students should therefore have a working knowledge of it's sympathies with the Japanese (and presumably with its allies the Germans). In fact, Thailand came very close to having to pay war reparations as a result of it's complicity with the Japanese and it was only the Americans who prevented that. Thsi students should know about this and why.

 

History is all about decisions, and the decisions Thailand made should be taught and regretted by all school students in the name of learning something. This is no place for First-world-haters.

I'm not sure why you are telling me this. Because I never said the Thai shouldnt have some basic knowledge about it's sympaties with the Japanese. In fact I 100% agree with this. But Nazi Germany is not the same as Japan. The average knowledge of a westerner about what happend in Asia is no doubt similar to what the average Thai knows about Europe. So why blame them? 

 

And really, the time that westerners can tell easterners what they must is long gone. Colonialism ended last century, time to accept we are no longer the center of the universe.

[yosuik]

This is such BS, In the estimation of people like you, the best way to feel good discarding what is obviously the case but which you don't think *should* be the case, is to accuse people who know better than you of 'Thai-bashing'. It's simplistic, naive, yuppie politically correct and plain wrong.
 
In my opinion you badly need to get a life, preferably an educated life. Get out and smell the roses. The Thai roses.
 
 

So err.... "HalfLight" you want to judge the whole countries education system on the shoulders of a 19 year old Thai girls shirt?

I never said I support the Thai education system, I'm saying it's wrong to judge the Thai Education System on such a thing and should be seen case by case.
It's not the end of the world. Well, hopefully not.

And please keep your BS to yourself instead of flinging it to me or other people. You're educated right?

Then enlighten me please with the points of which I discarded that is so obviously the case to you.

Maybe if you put it in writing we could all understand and make some good out of it.

I do hope you or someone is home to understand my point, "HalfLight" because you shouldn't just call BS on someone for nothing. Hope I haven't gone beyond any of your estimation points. Thanks!

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[HalfLight]

this will be my only communication in respect of this garbage. Mt BO-meter is flickering too high.

 

So err.... "HalfLight" you want to judge the whole countries education system on the shoulders of a 19 year old Thai girls shirt?
 

No. Show me where I said that or gave you reasonable grounds for thinking it.

I never said I support the Thai education system, I'm saying it's wrong to judge the Thai Education System on such a thing and should be seen case by case.

 

Everything is one case at a time. If this were the only aberration of the Thai education system, I doubt anyone would have commented. What you are doing is the salami technique, and it won't wash.

It's not the end of the world. Well, hopefully not.

 

I don't know if it is or not. And I don't much care.

And please keep your BS to yourself instead of flinging it to me or other people. You're educated right?
 

I have an education, yes. If you think what I say is BS then you have an easy fix - don't read it. Go ahead, ruin my whole day by not reading any of my posts. I imagine I'll cope with the humiliation.

Then enlighten me please with the points of which I discarded that is so obviously the case to you.

 

Eh? What are you talking about Willis?

Maybe if you put it in writing we could all understand and make some good out of it.

 

I notice you use the words 'we' and 'all' to imply your opinion is widely shared, and I don't believe that for a moment. Genius is recognisable. The flip side is that so is stupidity. Tell me what *you* think or don't bother. Either way, I'm not really interested, my life won't change because you disagree with me.

I do hope you or someone is home to understand my point, "HalfLight" because you shouldn't just call BS on someone for nothing. Hope I haven't gone beyond any of your estimation points. Thanks!

 

No you don't. If you have a point to make, then make it. If you don't then go and find something else to do with your time. Your boredom and incompetence will not be my motivation, not today, not ever. Harsh? Sorry, but if you come in here and talk BS then you have to learn how to cope with people saying 'you're talking BS'.

 

Lesson 1 . If people keep telling you you're a being a dick then sooner or later you need to face up to the possibility that you're being a dick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by HalfLight

[HalfLight]

33 minutes ago, GeoMill said:

I'm not sure why you are telling me this. Because I never said the Thai shouldnt have some basic knowledge about it's sympaties with the Japanese. In fact I 100% agree with this. But Nazi Germany is not the same as Japan. The average knowledge of a westerner about what happend in Asia is no doubt similar to what the average Thai knows about Europe. So why blame them? 

 

And really, the time that westerners can tell easterners what they must is long gone. Colonialism ended last century, time to accept we are no longer the center of the universe.

I can't really respond to a non-point. What I said holds good. If you don't think so then you don't think so.

 

Don't be silly. Easterners are told ever day what they must do and must not do. Same as westerners, but in the end, if an easterner chooses to have a crap education then it's their fault and nobody can or should even try to help them. There's good reason to think this applies particularly to Thais.

[LomSak27]

 

6 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

13 hours ago, LomSak27 said:

I'm somewhat suspicious of this ... not getting thai teachers off the hook but they do not teach WWII for a reason and that reason is probably a directive, or it was at one time so .... 

 

Are you trying to imply, the locals' involvement in that little encounter didn't end in glorious, patriotic victory for their superior armed forces???  

Not at all

 

But perhaps it was deemed better to uh mmmm not talk about it  or, why not cut WWI and WWII to a 10 minute lecture and then  have a special history week assembly    ... film presentation !!

 

Thats the ticket for History Class!

Edited January 30, 2019 by LomSak27

[yosuik]

Actually on the Native American issue, you're wrong.
This is now very well taught. The Indian wars, symptomatic culling of the prairie bison herds to starve the Indians and the broken treaties, now is taught pretty well.
Both my daughters went through HS in the 90's, seen their books, it's all there

Sorry about that. I do apologise.

Which then triggers another can of worms which kinda really sucks.

So, I didn't know that they teach to such levels of detail.... but then why do they (i.e. American Government) hardly do anything to compensate or admit to realise even if they do know?

I feel like a total arse just for saying that.
You don't have to reply to that, I'm not even American.

I think eventually in the world there will be basically two types of people, "Dwellers" who will continue to keep bringing the past up and claim for things that occured, even stuff that occured even before they were born, and the "New Types" who may have a understanding of what happened in the past, but take it with a grain of salt as they have no direct connection other than Nationality etc (Religion.... erm yeah but that's another drum-can of worms I don't even want to touch) and think it's wrong to be judged by something they haven't done themselves, educated or not and expect other people to be the same, because that's how they feel.

I think this is where the BNK48 girl is.

Not sure how the Dwellers will survive as eventually the world will be full of New Types, so it's kind of a novelty.

Either way, the real root towards such problems, the "Government" will still exist and feed us more problems and other sh*t we really don't want or need.

Maybe eventually the Government will open up a bit and have the JFK assassination fully sussed out and put into a text book, or maybe the Japanese Government will write about Unit 731 and teach it in schools too, but let's not hold our breaths because all Governments are sh*t and corrupt to the teeth.

So let's not fool ourselves.

It's not going to be "Where there's a Will, there's a Way" it will eventually be a Post Apocalyptic World "Where there's a Will, there's a Weapon" which will be used thoroughly and extensively.

Just knowing about certain things may not even matter by then, as long as it "Looks Cool" or "Has an Impact".

Anyway, once again sorry about not knowing they do teach certain things in detail, just now I wonder why they don't follow up or do anything about it then.

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[yosuik]

this will be my only communication in respect of this garbage. Mt BO-meter is flickering too high.
 
So err.... "HalfLight" you want to judge the whole countries education system on the shoulders of a 19 year old Thai girls shirt?
 
No. Show me where I said that or gave you reasonable grounds for thinking it.

I never said I support the Thai education system, I'm saying it's wrong to judge the Thai Education System on such a thing and should be seen case by case.
 
Everything is one case at a time. If this were the only aberration of the Thai education system, I doubt anyone would have commented. What you are doing is the salami technique, and it won't wash.

It's not the end of the world. Well, hopefully not.
 
I don't know if it is or not. And I don't much care.

And please keep your BS to yourself instead of flinging it to me or other people. You're educated right?
 
I have an education, yes. If you think what I say is BS then you have an easy fix - don't read it. Go ahead, ruin my whole day by not reading any of my posts. I imagine I'll cope with the humiliation.

Then enlighten me please with the points of which I discarded that is so obviously the case to you.
 
Eh? What are you talking about Willis?

Maybe if you put it in writing we could all understand and make some good out of it.
 
I notice you use the words 'we' and 'all' to imply your opinion is widely shared, and I don't believe that for a moment. Genius is recognisable. The flip side is that so is stupidity. Tell me what *you* think or don't bother. Either way, I'm not really interested, my life won't change because you disagree with me.

I do hope you or someone is home to understand my point, "HalfLight" because you shouldn't just call BS on someone for nothing. Hope I haven't gone beyond any of your estimation points. Thanks!
 
No you don't. If you have a point to make, then make it. If you don't then go and find something else to do with your time. Your boredom and incompetence will not be my motivation, not today, not ever. Harsh? Sorry, but if you come in here and talk BS then you have to learn how to cope with people saying 'you're talking BS'.
 
Lesson 1 . If people keep telling you you're a being a dick then sooner or later you need to face up to the possibility that you're being a dick.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Agreed.

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[utalkin2me]

So now an innocent girl who had no idea what a swastica was is traumatized for life. You tell me who the bad guys are here. I have seen that symbol scribbled on about 500 notebooks in high school by kids who did know what it was. This is such an overblown story, and I really truly do feel sorry for the girl. 

[tifino]

The educating of others, about those subject; well there may be this pattern?;

 

I recall there was an observation, in one of the many related Threads, that some sort of approx 10 year cycle goes on regarding reactions to the Nazi Swastika question...

 

 

Could it be? that the very locals who really picked up on it, this time around, 

were the very youngsters 10 years back that were picked up on it last time?

 

10 years from now it very well may be this girl who, 10 years older, still remembers what happened just now.

 

the only locals that are capable of appreciating the concept, are those who were (youngsters) thrown into the arena, last time...

 

 The cycle then self replicates ad-infinitim!

 

 

there really is no learning!

it is simply a DejaVu, from those few

Edited January 30, 2019 by tifino