New retirement extension rules forces expat, 90, to leave Thailand

[Jingthing]

Having read these various visa change threads over the past few weeks. The one thing that astounds me it the way those who have the resources to meet these recent changes have turned on those who cannot. 
 
The western expat community should be ashamed by lack of solidarity shown to others who are less fortunate then themselves in their community.  We have a lot to learn from the sizable Chinese and Indian communities which support each other in Thailand. 
 
No wonder immigration can make us jump willingly through so many hoops when we turn on each other at the earliest opportunity. 
 
 

Thai expat Stockholm Syndrome. It's nauseating.

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[Jingthing]

Can't see what all the fuss is about. The 800,000 baht rule hasn't changed.....merely a tightening of how it is applied. Go home if you can't afford it.

Incorrect.

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[Jingthing]

Doesn't the COMBINATION option still apply?  

Without embassy letters strong indications that offices don't want to touch such applications.

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[Pattaya46]

The "90yo expat who has to leave" is from USA

Until now he was using his embassy income letter (affidavit).

He doesn't want keep money in Thailand

and says that monthly transfer is too much hassle for a 90yo

(How I know? he contacted me)

[smedly]

33 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

I'm not worried about the money in the bank.  My Social Security and Veterans Administration pensions combined are more than double the monthly 65k income requirement.  And they go up ever year, so I feel fairly secure. 

That is quite a hefty pension you are receiving, were you a Sub Captain or did you lose all your limbs, give us a breakdown since you brought it up 

[Jingthing]

The only people leaving are the ones who should never have been here, if you are retired and do not have a measly 800k stay at home or go home. One thing I can respect the Thais for is their no nonsense immigration policies, no endless appeals to courts or human rights laws here. Sob stories will not change anything.

You don't understand what has actually happened and you grossly misrepresent both the older and newer rules. It's annoying to hear obnoxious moralizing from people that are not up on the actual details of what's happening.

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[Just1Voice]

I can't speak for other Embassies, but in 10 years of getting Income Verification letters from the American Embassy in Chiang Mai, not once was I asked to provide any proof of my income.  Even though I always took it with me. Nor was anyone else that I'm aware of.  Because of that, a lot of guys simply lied about their income, and now they are crying "foul", when they knew the rules to begin with. 

[Gecko123]

I just find it amusing how there's this coterie of posters on these threads who keep saying "if you can't afford the 800K, go home", as if they are members of a higher social strata. Before continuing, trust me, I can easily meet this requirement many fold over.

 

I just want to point out that having a bonafide 800K in a Thai bank in no way guarantees that you are going to spend any more in Thailand than someone who circumvented the rules to make it appear that they do.  For example, how about a 66 yo retiree who came to Thailand last year, bought a 2 mm baht condo (for more than he originally planned to spend), and figured that he could scrape by with his remaining savings until he started collecting a 65K SS payment at age 70. The new requirement that 400K remain permanently on deposit effectively removes $12.5K from his available cash for the next 4 years so he will be forced to spend less. Is that person a "less desirable" retiree than someone who has 800K on deposit, but rents a room for 4K baht/month and lives on 10,000 baht/month? I don't think so.

 

And how about guys who had no problem meeting the income requirements previously but got hit with sudden devaluations of their home currencies? Yes, they should have planned for this contingency, but not everyone has that level of financial sophistication.

 

Big Joke and Co's forte may be rounding up overstayers and closing loopholes, but I don't sense they have a clue about economic behavior.

 

For example, if there's a demographic who found ways to circumvent immigration rules, they're probably going to find a way to continue doing so - just paying more to unscrupulous agents and immigration officers in the process. These people will only have less money to spend as a result.

 

Those who can meet the requirement will also have less money for consumption, because 800K is tied up for 5 months and 400K is tied up year round. Because this is "dead money" it will have an impact on the "wealth effect", which says that the more money a person has the more likely they will spend money.

 

And everyone is now going to have to start considering the possibility that Thailand is planning to make retirement here progressively more difficult than in the past by imposing more and more restrictions or requirements. In the same way as uncertainty about whether social security will be available in the future causes people to hold back on consumption, fears about having to repatriate voluntarily or involuntarily because of Thai immigration changes is likely to cause people to cut back on consumption as well.

 

These changes may look to Thai immigration like they are going to improve the consumption patterns of retirees here, but it may end up having the exact opposite effect of inhibiting consumption based on uncertainty about the future.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Gecko123

[KneeDeep]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

Has an adage ever been more apt?

 

Trying to modify earlier comment only results in a bigger hole.

[Justin Side]

3 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

  Now he frantically trying to change his Retirement Visa to a Marriage Visa, which allows for a combined income of husband and wife.  

No it does not.

Husband's income only.

[smedly]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

The "90yo expat who has to leave" is from USA

Until now he was using his embassy income letter (affidavit).

He doesn't want keep money in Thailand

and says that monthly transfer is too much hassle for a 90yo

(How I know? he contacted me)

exactly, also I know a few older folk who will be totally unaware of these changes until they actually go to IO to do what they thought was the correct thing for years, not everyone is internet wise or have access to online media and services such as online banking, I have a spreadsheet to manage my finances and I am having to make considerable changes to it in order to comply with these changes - I will also have to make a few extra online transfers (were one was enough yearly) to facilitate the rules 

[FritsSikkink]

23 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Exactly. Massive changes on both bank and income methods for people that were shafted by their embassies when they cut off embassy letters. Also the combo method for such people may be over.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You mean those letters which weren't actually proof at all that the people had the money?

[smedly]

13 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

I just find it amusing how there's this coterie of posters on these threads who keep saying "if you can't afford the 800K, go home", as if they are members of a higher social strata. Before continuing, trust me I can easily meet this requirement many fold over.

 

I just want to point out that having a bonafide 800K in a Thai bank in no way guarantees that you are going to spend any more in Thailand than someone who circumvented the rules to make it appear that they do.  For example, how about a 66 yo retiree who came to Thailand last year, bought a 2 mm baht condo (for more than he originally planned to spend), and figured that he could scrape by with his remaining savings until he started collecting a 65K SS payment at age 70. The new requirement that 400K remain permanently on deposit effectively removes $12.5K from his available cash for the next 4 years. Is that person a "less desirable" retiree than someone who has 800K on deposit, but rents a room for 4K baht /month and lives on 10,000 baht/month? I don't think so.

 

And how about guys who had no problem meeting the income requirements previously but got hit with sudden devaluations of their home currencies? Yes, they should have planned for this contingency, but not everyone has that level of financial sophistication.

 

Big Joke and Co's forte may be rounding up overstayers and closing loopholes, but I don't sense they have a clue about economic behavior.

 

For example, if there's a demographic who found ways to circumvent immigration rules, they're probably going to find a way to continue doing so - just paying more to unscrupulous agents and immigration officers in the process. These people will only have less money to spend as a result.

 

Those who can meet the requirement will also have less money for consumption, because 800K is tied up for 5 months and 400K is tied up the remaining 7 months. Because this is "dead money" it will also have an impact on the "wealth effect", which says that the more money a person has the more likely they will spend money.

 

And everyone is now going to have to start considering the possibility that Thailand is planning to make retirement here more difficult than in the past by imposing more and more restrictions or requirements. In the same way as uncertainty about whether social security will be available in the future causes people to hold back on consumption, fears about having to repatriate voluntarily or involuntarily because of Thai immigration changes is likely to cause people to cut back on consumption as well.

 

These changes may look to Thai immigration like they are going to improve the consumption patterns of retirees here, but it may end up having the exact opposite effect of inhibiting consumption based on uncertainty about the future.

easily the best informative post on TVF for the last 2 weeks 

 

Right on my friend

[elephant45]

Someday day China will make a demand, and an expensive one. Like; New high speed train etc. When Thailand doesn't agree, the supreme order will be " Stop tourism to Thailand"

Then they will have egg on their face.

 

There are so many empty condos in Chiang Mai now that the economic repercussions already are staggering, and next will be overwhelming.

 

TAT and greed better be dam careful.

 

The quiet older retired expat community has supported many facets of this country for years. It might seem small but it isn't.

[Justin Side]

19 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

I can't speak for other Embassies, but in 10 years of getting Income Verification letters from the American Embassy in Chiang Mai, not once was I asked to provide any proof of my income.  

There is no American Embassy in Chiang Mai.

[brokenbone]

46 minutes ago, amexpat said:

Doesn't the COMBINATION option still apply?  

i could meet the combination criteria if given a year or two,

except: IO wont be approving willingly the honest income letter

unless i got the means to enforce extension approval on spot,

so why would i ever bother to try again ?

[marcusarelus]

Just now, Justin Side said:

There is no American Embassy in Chiang Mai.

Don't you just love it?  The pedantic dance.  Visa or retirement extension.  Embassy or consulate. 

 

Where do these guys come from?

[Just1Voice]

1 minute ago, Justin Side said:

There is no American Embassy in Chiang Mai.

Ok, ok, American CONSULATE.  Happy now? 

[Nong Khai Man]

3 minutes ago, Justin Side said:

There is no American Embassy in Chiang Mai.

He Probably meant Consul !!..........Oh Yeah, He DID...

Edited February 6, 2019 by Nong Khai Man

[BritManToo]

23 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

And how about guys who had no problem meeting the income requirements previously but got hit with sudden devaluations of their home currencies? Yes, they should have planned for this contingency, but not everyone has that level of financial sophistication.

One of my friend had this happen with Brexit, and his income dipped below 65k, he just accepted Thailand didn't want him and moved to the Philippines, Vietnam and Cambodia. At 70 years old, it's given him a new lease on life and he's more than happy to move between those 3 countries that all want his pension money.

He still does a month's waiver in Pattaya now and again.

Edited February 6, 2019 by BritManToo

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, elephant45 said:

Someday day China will make a demand, and an expensive one. Like; New high speed train etc. When Thailand doesn't agree, the supreme order will be " Stop tourism to Thailand"

Then they will have egg on their face.

 

There are so many empty condos in Chiang Mai now that the economic repercussions already are staggering, and next will be overwhelming.

 

TAT and greed better be dam careful.

 

The quiet older retired expat community has supported many facets of this country for years. It might seem small but it isn't.

Can you name another country where this has happened?  Or.  Will Thailand be the first?

[Rugon]

6 minutes ago, elephant45 said:

 

 

The quiet older retired expat community has supported many facets of this country for years. 

No way, Jose. They have supported the massage parlours and Boonrawd Brewery. 

[Rugon]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

Can you name another country where this has happened?  Or.  Will Thailand be the first?

Australia. Thre is a huge decrease in house prices, due to the Chinese government.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, jfk said:

Why must this be explained again and again.

The 'system' is corrupted by the very people who run it. There would be no corruption, trying to cheat the system, if the opportunities were not there. What part of that do you not get?

If IO's don't accept bribe money, then there are no options to garner the system. Don't you see that?

They are punishing people who have never tried to 'cheat' the system or they are punishing people who used agents to cheat the system that they, the IO's are taking bribes for. Why can't you see that?

This is a problem created by 'Them' NOT the foreigners who reside here. 

One day some people grow up and learn to live in the world that is rather than the one they want it to be. Others? They just endlessly howl at the moon.

[DavisH]

The retiree extension was never about good international relations or being nice/generous. The point is that retirees are supposed to be bringing in lots of money and spending it in the Thai economy (and as a fund for their health if they don't have insurance). This is the sad reality, even though many of us could live a basic lifestyle on 20-30K up country. But the authorities don't care about that. Good luck to Don, anyway. 

[Rugon]

28 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

And everyone is now going to have to start considering the possibility that Thailand is planning to make retirement here progressively more difficult than in the past by imposing more and more restrictions or requirements.

Do you want Thailand to develop or remain as a 3rd world country that you can come to and abuse?

[stanleycoin]

1 hour ago, SmartyMarty said:

Can't see what all the fuss is about. The 800,000 baht rule hasn't changed.....merely a tightening of how it is applied. Go home if you can't afford it.

Fantastic, The Trump card,  The Ace in the hole, comes into play.

The Go home Post.  how nice and thoughtful .

A few Aces in the hole trump card posters on Tv lately. 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by stanleycoin

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

The "90yo expat who has to leave" is from USA

Until now he was using his embassy income letter (affidavit).

He doesn't want keep money in Thailand

and says that monthly transfer is too much hassle for a 90yo

(How I know? he contacted me)

How many times have I gone round and round in circles considering viable option or options with individuals to eventually be confronted with a "I won't do that, I don't want that...", as if they are in a position to put their foot down against the change in question and demand that the authorities maintain the status quo ante. 

[garyk]

After reading threw many threads here. Personally I think the U.S., SS administration should start cutting benefits for people retiring to Thailand. Basically treating them as Foreigners having worked in the US, and returning home to collect US benefits. That should help shore up the SS monies, and deter retirement in Thailand.

Of course anyone with a current extension of stay would be grandfathered in, but it would essentially stop all people from considering Thailand as a retirement destination, even more that the new rules put in place by Thailand. 

 

[BritManToo]

22 minutes ago, Rugon said:

Do you want Thailand to develop or remain as a 3rd world country that you can come to and abuse?

I'd like it to remain a country where I can live with my Thai children.

But it sadly doesn't appear that is going to happen, and I've already told the new 9 year old unwanted Thai girl I was planning to take in that I can't look after her due to immigration uncertainty.

 

The 20 year old I took in years back is doing OK, and should be able to cope on her own.

My 7 year old son has a Brit passport, so he can come with me, or stay with his Thai mom who doesn't really want him.

Edited February 6, 2019 by BritManToo