Solar power is it worth it

[Enki]

7 hours ago, Naam said:

why don't you tell us how much you invested to produce 155kWh daily and in what country is the cost of 1kWh $0.38?

 

summary: your claim seems to be as fake as a three-dollar-bill

The cost of $0.38 seems right. But the idea that she is producing 155 kWh per day makes no sense. How funky big should the roof be? The rest makes no sense either. I know no one in Thailand who has a electricity bill in the 100ds of dollar range. My wife gets electricity for free ... and her sisters pay below $10 per month.

[Naam]

2 hours ago, Enki said:

The cost of $0.38 seems right. But the idea that she is producing 155 kWh per day makes no sense. How funky big should the roof be? The rest makes no sense either. I know no one in Thailand who has a electricity bill in the 100ds of dollar range. My wife gets electricity for free ... and her sisters pay below $10 per month.

the OP quoted a US company for solar products and mentioned "$".  the average cost per kWh in the US is $ 0.12/kWh, id est $0.38/kWh case closed.

 

perhaps i should divorce my wife and marry yours or one of her sisters to save a bundle?

 

my last electricity bill was THB 22,475 = USD 238.80 (consumption 4,922 kWh for the period may15>june15 = 159kWh/day).

 

[tjo o tjim]

Naam- average cost might be $0.12 (I think it has gone up though, closer to $0.14-15), but for residential it can vary significantly. Hawaii average is about $0.50, and high use residential tiers in California are $0.42.  

 

(Grid-tied) Solar makes sense if you do it within the constraints of what is easy here.  It has a return on investment of ~20% over 5 years and 24% over the life of the system.  Off grid has about a 4% return on investment assuming zero cost to install PEA service. You don’t see many industrial facilities doing it because of risk aversion and limited capital investment in a non-core function.  

 

But, if you are getting 1% interest in the bank and will live in your place for 5 years “full time”, it makes sense for offsetting some of your energy bill. 

[Naam]

11 hours ago, tjo o tjim said:

But, if you are getting 1% interest in the bank and will live in your place for 5 years “full time”, it makes sense for offsetting some of your energy bill. 

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

[rockyysdt]

20 hours ago, Naam said:

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

My understanding is that it's a lottery as to whether the savings from operating a Solar Energy System will eventuate.

 

An audit in Australia found that 25% of installations were found to be sub standard.

 

This ranged from unsafe installations prone to fire, through to poorly constructed panels either never producing their stated energy output, or deteriorating output due to water damage, as well as limited life span. Inverters were also subject to failure well before the break even life span.

 

If Panels and Inverters fail a year or two after warranty then ones outlay will never be recouped.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by rockyysdt

[tjo o tjim]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, Naam said:

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

You don’t have to offset your full load, but I agree on economic terms; my MARR would be ~15% if it wasn’t for the environmental benefits and potential for utility outage resilience. 

 

BTW, an off-grid solution for you would be closer to USD 200k including battery and generator; maybe an extra $20-40k if you never wanted to think about your energy use. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by tjo o tjim

[Misab]

Yes, it is worth it.  Say you use 500 – 600 kw a month (approximately 2.000 Bahts) it can be supplied by 12 panels and they can inclusive converter be installed for about 130.000 Bahts. Pay back time about 6 years and then you have free electricity.

But don't buy batteries stay on grid.

 

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, Misab said:

Yes, it is worth it.  Say you use 500 – 600 kw a month (approximately 2.000 Bahts) it can be supplied by 12 panels and they can inclusive converter be installed for about 130.000 Bahts. Pay back time about 6 years and then you have free electricity.

But don't buy batteries stay on grid.

 

600Kwh would need 20 panels, my 330W panel produces 28KWh/month worth 123bht for an initial investment of 7,000bht.

There's a big difference between what the sellers/manufacturers say a panel will produce and reality.

Edited September 17, 2019 by BritManToo

[Enki]

On 7/6/2019 at 5:04 PM, Naam said:

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

You must have made a typo, for USD 450,000 you can build a power plant.

[Naam]

16 hours ago, Enki said:

On 7/6/2019 at 10:04 PM, Naam said:

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

You must have made a typo, for USD 450,000 you can build a power plant.

no Sir, no typo. my average daily usage is 155 kWh/day and to provide for that demand the total cost of panels, battery banks and inverters is around $450k.

[dougalg]

Quote

no Sir, no typo. my average daily usage is 155 kWh/day and to provide for that demand the total cost of panels, battery banks and inverters is around $450k.

I'm curious what the biggest cost in there was? I'm assuming the batteries? My parents in Canada just had solar panels put on their place rated for about 150kWh/day and their cost was orders of magnitude lower. I assume this is because they can just push excess power into the grid for credit so they don't need batteries.

[h90]

On 9/21/2019 at 8:45 PM, Naam said:

no Sir, no typo. my average daily usage is 155 kWh/day and to provide for that demand the total cost of panels, battery banks and inverters is around $450k.

what are you doing? Bitcoin mining? I use 3000-5000 kWh per month and it is a small factory (very small but still).

[h90]

On 9/17/2019 at 9:08 AM, BritManToo said:

600Kwh would need 20 panels, my 330W panel produces 28KWh/month worth 123bht for an initial investment of 7,000bht.

There's a big difference between what the sellers/manufacturers say a panel will produce and reality.

330 Watt panels if you go for the cheapest you can get now for +/- 4000 Baht, but of course you still need an inverter.

 

[Enki]

On 9/21/2019 at 3:45 PM, Naam said:

no Sir, no typo. my average daily usage is 155 kWh/day and to provide for that demand the total cost of panels, battery banks and inverters is around $450k.

So you are running a factory .... and not a house?

[Enki]

10 hours ago, h90 said:

330 Watt panels if you go for the cheapest you can get now for +/- 4000 Baht, but of course you still need an inverter.

 

He made a typo or miscalculation somewhere and does not realize it. For $450,000 you can build/buy a power plant that powers a small town.

[tjo o tjim]

7 hours ago, Enki said:

He made a typo or miscalculation somewhere and does not realize it. For $450,000 you can build/buy a power plant that powers a small town.

For that much, you could get 100kW of high-end panels, 3-4 30kW inverters, and 40 Tesla PowerWalls at 13.5kWh each. Maybe not a town, but a village for sure!  In fairness though, costs have dropped in the past two years. 

[MayPutThai]

On 2/27/2019 at 8:24 AM, isaanjohnno said:

The regime here require that you get a BOI license, a power production permit and a controlled energy production license (which can be acquired from the Energy Regulatory Commission) even if you have only one panel on your house. Whether it would be enforced or not is another matter. Just not worth the hassle or the cost. 

Hi,

your post is one year old, but could you link here from where you got this information please. Does it is also valid if I use my solar only for isolated devices on battery back powered devices like fridge etc?

I don't plan to sell the power, but would like to be more independent due to the often power fail and problems with my electronics if the power switch on again then several times short on off after fail.

I even have build now an on-delay timer to switch back to grid power only if that is stable for longer than a minute.  One fridge, one air-con, printer and several bulbs had killed that before, before I installed my battery buffered power for important devices.

BTW, that helps to protect also against spikes over the grid during thunderstorms. If we talk about cost saving, then you need to include your lost from those devices too and the advantage to have power during general power fail.

[Crossy]

@MayPutThai The poster you quoted hasn't been seen since April 2019, I doubt he will answer.

 

If you are running a solar/battery backup system and not feeding to the grid there are no licences or approvals needed.

 

 

[JimShortz]

On 9/17/2019 at 9:08 AM, BritManToo said:

600Kwh would need 20 panels, my 330W panel produces 28KWh/month worth 123bht for an initial investment of 7,000bht.

There's a big difference between what the sellers/manufacturers say a panel will produce and reality.

But surely that one 330w panel is a good deal then, at B7,000. Paying you back each year 12 x B123 = B1476  So, payback time of B7,000 / B1476 = 4.74 years, and then all profit thereafter. Not bad at all imho...

[BritManToo]

22 minutes ago, JimShortz said:

But surely that one 330w panel is a good deal then, at B7,000. Paying you back each year 12 x B123 = B1476  So, payback time of B7,000 / B1476 = 4.74 years, and then all profit thereafter. Not bad at all imho...

 ..... assuming.

1. I live that long.

2. I'm allowed to stay in Thailand.

 

Neither of which are certain at the moment.

[Jenkins9039]

On 10/8/2019 at 4:23 AM, Enki said:

So you are running a factory .... and not a house?

Just done 

• 12 x 400w split pane panels (means even if half the panel is out of the sun, the other half will continue to produce). 65,000THB
• Solax Inverter X1-HYBRID-5.0T 83,000 THB
• Combiner Box (Custom made from China) 15,000 THB
• PV 10SQ MM cable(s) x 400m 13,000 THB
• DC On / Off box's x2 6,000 THB
• Batteries x50 already had saving 6,000 x 50 = 300,000 THB which came 'free' with a UPS system i had previously which cost 50,000 THB (though 12v will raise to 42v).
• Misc max 50k THB 

So all in, 50 + 50 + 6 + 13 + 15 + 83 + 65 = 282k THB (factor in minus the 50k thb for batteries) = 232k THB (factor in the 50k THB is inflated and massively = 202k THB.

 

Electricity cost monthly (currently) 6,000 THB a month = 6,000 x 34 months = 204,000 so, just under three years to recover, and added an increase on the home by at the very least 1 - 1.5m THB, over the lifetime (rounding down from 25yrs to 10 yrs) 720,000 THB min, factoring in of-course, only the panels will need to be replaced if broken (25yr guarantee anyway) but also in 10 yrs we may have 5000w panels by then.

 

Hybrid inverter so stay on the grid, charges batteries and pulls only from the grid when it needs to supplement, no need to <deleted> around with the government either.

 

So yes its a winner, but only if you intend to be here longterm (i shall likely increase in to additional sub-divisions as we're buying additional and building upon). 

 

 

[Jenkins9039]

On 7/5/2019 at 4:24 AM, Enki said:

The cost of $0.38 seems right. But the idea that she is producing 155 kWh per day makes no sense. How funky big should the roof be? The rest makes no sense either. I know no one in Thailand who has a electricity bill in the 100ds of dollar range. My wife gets electricity for free ... and her sisters pay below $10 per month.

One of my properties bills is roughly 15,000-20,000 THB a month..., when you have central aircon systems and electronics running continuously it quickly mounts up.

[BritManToo]

42 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Electricity cost monthly (currently) 6,000 THB a month = 6,000 x 34 months = 204,000 so, just under three years to recover, and added an increase on the home by at the very least 1 - 1.5m THB, over the lifetime (rounding down from 25yrs to 10 yrs) 720,000 THB min, factoring in of-course, only the panels will need to be replaced if broken (25yr guarantee anyway) but also in 10 yrs we may have 5000w panels by then.

But your 12 panels will only produce 400KwHr/month, so only 1,600bht off your electricity bill, not 6,000bht.

(you'd need 45 panels to cover a bill of 6,000bht/month)

Your 12 panels give a payback time of 136 months ............... just over 11 years.

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by BritManToo

[eisfeld]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

But your 12 panels will only produce 400KwHr/month, so only 1,600bht off your electricity bill, not 6,000bht.

(you'd need 45 panels to cover a bill of 6,000bht/month)

Your 12 panels give a payback time of 136 months ............... just over 11 years.

His 4.8kWp system will produce closer to 500kWh per month. At his consumption he can offset at a tariff of roughly 4.4 baht per unit so about 2200 baht per month or 26.4k p.a. in savings. His system includes battery backup which I would exclude because batteries make no economical sense at this point in time. That cuts 50k+ from the price. A more realistic price would probably be 200k THB more or less. That come down to a bit more than 7.5 years break even.

 

As a general rule a private residential solar system should break even between 5 and 8 years. If you sign up with PEA to sell to the grid and have not so good consumption patterns then maybe 10 years.

[eisfeld]

On 7/6/2019 at 3:04 PM, Naam said:

anybody who has the means paying for a solar system generating net 155 kWh/day is used to yields of 7-9% per annum. we are talking of an initial investment of USD 450,000 (perhaps a few bucks cheaper in Thailand because of low labour cost).  

A system that produces 155 kWh/day produces 56,575 kWh per year. 1 kWp produces about 1250 kWh per year (conservative estimate). 56,575 / 1250 = 45.25. So it would be a 45 kWp system. You can probably get a price of 35 baht per Watt for a installation of this size without haggling all too much. I haven't checked but it shouldn't be difficult. 45,000 * 35 = 1,575,000 or ~ 1.6M baht. That's less than 50k USD.

[Crossy]

I've probably put this info out before, but it's worth reiterating.

 

Our DIY installed 2.4kW (8 * 300W panels) with 600W grid-tie micro-inverters cost about 47,000 Baht not including labour (me and family).

 

It makes about 8 units a day on average, net metering but we rarely actually go into export.

 

So 47,000 / 4.5 (Baht per unit) / 8 = 1300 - 3.5 years days to break even.

 

In our case, yes it is worth it. I will be adding more panels and inverters (of a different type) later in the year.

 

Thread here

 

 

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, eisfeld said:

His 4.8kWp system will produce closer to 500kWh per month. At his consumption he can offset at a tariff of roughly 4.4 baht per unit so about 2200 baht per month or 26.4k p.a. in savings. His system includes battery backup which I would exclude because batteries make no economical sense at this point in time. That cuts 50k+ from the price. A more realistic price would probably be 200k THB more or less. That come down to a bit more than 7.5 years break even.

 

As a general rule a private residential solar system should break even between 5 and 8 years. If you sign up with PEA to sell to the grid and have not so good consumption patterns then maybe 10 years.

So you agree his calculation of 6,000bht/month output was totally wrong, but want to haggle about trivial amounts? (I said he was over-estimating output by 400%, you claim he only over-estimated by 270%)

One of the biggest problems with his install (which doesn't appear to have been built), he's paid 200k+ where he only needed to pay 70k ...... god know's why.

 

Would also point out the 25 year guarantee on the panels is worthless, I doubt many Thai firms last 5 years.

Edited May 2, 2020 by BritManToo

[eisfeld]

9 hours ago, BritManToo said:

So you agree his calculation of 6,000bht/month output was totally wrong, but want to haggle about trivial amounts? (I said he was over-estimating output by 400%, you claim he only over-estimated by 270%)

One of the biggest problems with his install (which doesn't appear to have been built), he's paid 200k+ where he only needed to pay 70k ...... god know's why.

 

Would also point out the 25 year guarantee on the panels is worthless, I doubt many Thai firms last 5 years.

Yes we agree that his 6k THB/month number is way off. I am not haggling about trivial amounts. I'm trying to give interested people are more accurate estimate about the savings and costs of a solar system in Thailand.

 

70k THB for a 4.8kWp system would be on the very very low end of what is possible. But there's a big difference in what price one can achieve and what the usual rate is for retail solar installations done by a solar installer. About half of retail price goes to the installer. But if you can do things yourself or with local labor then it can be quite a lot cheaper.

 

I've seen panels retail for about 10.5 THB per watt. 4.8 kWp would cost 51.5k with these panels. I wouldn't use noname micro inverters at this size. A 5kW INVT inverter for example will cost maybe 25k. So we're at 76.5k. But you also need cabling, mounting, breakers, a cabinet might be a good idea as well, labor and transportation costs. So, if you source all these things yourself, get your own labor and don't want anything fancy then I'd say planning up to 100k is a safe estimate. If going with a proper solar company that does it all for you anything between 150k and 250k is possible.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

I've seen panels retail for about 10.5 THB per watt. 4.8 kWp would cost 51.5k with these panels. I wouldn't use noname micro inverters at this size. A 5kW INVT inverter for example will cost maybe 25k. So we're at 76.5k. But you also need cabling, mounting, breakers, a cabinet might be a good idea as well, labor and transportation costs. So, if you source all these things yourself, get your own labor and don't want anything fancy then I'd say planning up to 100k is a safe estimate. If going with a proper solar company that does it all for you anything between 150k and 250k is possible.

330w panels are 3k4 delivered. 12 panels total cost around 40k,

https://shopee.co.th/แผง-Solra-cell-330W-poly-mono-i.158478241.6831629990

 

5kva Hybrid inverter to run them 20k.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/suoer-hybrid-inverter-48v-pure-sine-wave-ps-5kva-48v-i363434361-s709510421.html

 

MC4 connectors are 20bht a pair, trivial amounts, even if you need to buy a cheap welder, angle grinder and drill for the job. I pottered around all day making a mount for 3 panels (only put two up in the end), but I wasn't making much effort, quite enjoyed the cutting, welding and drilling.

 

 

So that's 60k (delivery included) + change for the steel to make mounts (about 700bht of 2"x 1" steel to mount 3 panels). No breakers required or connection blocks, that hybrid will take 2 strings of 6 directly connected.

Labour free, provided by me and my 20 yo daughter.

 

So say 65k in total, including the tools to build the mounts.

Edited May 3, 2020 by BritManToo

[eisfeld]

51 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

330w panels are 3k4 delivered. 12 panels total cost around 40k,

https://shopee.co.th/แผง-Solra-cell-330W-poly-mono-i.158478241.6831629990

 

5kva Hybrid inverter to run them 20k.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/suoer-hybrid-inverter-48v-pure-sine-wave-ps-5kva-48v-i363434361-s709510421.html

 

MC4 connectors are 20bht a pair, trivial amounts, even if you need to buy a cheap welder, angle grinder and drill for the job. I pottered around all day making a mount for 3 panels (only put two up in the end), but I wasn't making much effort, quite enjoyed the cutting, welding and drilling.

 

 

So that's 60k (delivery included) + change for the steel to make mounts (about 700bht of 2"x 1" steel to mount 3 panels). No breakers required or connection blocks, that hybrid will take 2 strings of 6 directly connected.

Labour free, provided by me and my 20 yo daughter.

 

So say 65k in total, including the tools to build the mounts.

Those panels seem no-name. There's no specs. I'd rather pay a little more and get a known brand. By now mono panels are also nearly the same price as poly, that could be interesting if space is tight.

 

First time I've seen "Suoer". They are not on the PEA tested list. You mentioned it will take 2 strings but I see only one PV input. Also make sure you connect the panels in the right way as I see the max input voltage of that inverter is quite low at 105V so two panels in series max. Again I'd go with something cheap but known like INVT. Price for the inverter will also depend on the amount of phases in the property. I still would suggest a breaker on the AC side.

 

But as you have shown one can always save quite a lot by going for the cheapest ingredients and doing as much as possible yourself. This is the DIY forum after all! That being said, with electricity I'm hesitant to do that as faults can be life threatening or burn down the house etc. There is a lot of stuff that can be done wrong. I always let a professional electrician do the work. Also installing the panels on a sloped roof with tiles is maybe something I'd let others do ???? So the prices I mention are a bit higher than yours because I use equipment from known brands and at least take a local sparky to help out. For my properties I also try to make things look "neat" and safe so kids have no way to get to the dangerous bits.