Boy dead. Insurance company not wants to pay.

[toho]

Hope that some members can help me. Last year the grandson of my friend died. A car killed the boy. Initially the driver of the car did not admit his mistake. At last, in court, he confessed that it was his fault. The court ordered him to pay 500.000 THB to the family of the boy. The driver has a "nr 1"insurance. However, the insurance company refuses to pay. This seems to be "normal" procedure in Thailand. The driver told the family, that he prefers to go to prison than to pay, also he moved to another address. WHAT TO DO? How can the family get justice done and receive the money (also needed to pay for lawyers). The family needed 2 lawyerS, because the first one was corrupt. The family does not want to hire a lawyer again (too expensive). Probably the insurance company with its own bunch of vulture-lawyers is gambling, that the family will stop further action: costs too much money to get your rights here. Good idea very welcome. Thank you in advance.  

 

 

[BestB]

I believe there is insurance ombudsman office in Thailand also . Another good start would be to call 1111 government help line, they should be able to direct you or family

 

https://www.ombudsman.go.th/10/eng/index1.asp

Edited March 3, 2019 by BestB

[toho]

Thank you very much BestB, very helpful suggestions, which we will certainly use.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

I believe there is insurance ombudsman office in Thailand also . Another good start would be to call 1111 government help line, they should be able to direct you or family

 

https://www.ombudsman.go.th/10/eng/index1.asp

This

http://www.oic.or.th/en/home

 

You can file a complaint online

[toho]

Thank you dear Sheryl, we are certainly going to contact them too.

[lemonjelly]

Would an insurance company pay out if the driver was breaking the law, driving over the speed limit, drunk etc.... 

[toho]

Dear lemonjelly, the driver had a camera in his car, but "coincidentally" that camera did not function that moment. It happened on a quiet country road, the child was killed instantly, car speeding could not be proven. No drugs or alcohol involved. Driver was just "unlucky" to hit the child, so seems to me that insurance company should have to pay.

[ukrules]

Asset recovery, you go after the drivers assets. Start with the car and then move onto the property.

 

[BestB]

9 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Asset recovery, you go after the drivers assets. Start with the car and then move onto the property.

 

That requires a lawyer and many hours in court and then if all assets are under finance you get nothing .

 

insurance must pay , why they are not paying is a mystery , if driver was not arrested and charged means a genuine accident so once again insurance must pay.

 

even if he did not have first class , the compulsory one would pay out a bit.

[Sandman77]

How high are coasts of thai lawyers where I can find a list ?


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[KiChakayan]

3 hours ago, toho said:

At last, in court, he confessed that it was his fault.

Here is the reason why the insurance company doesn't pay. You MUST let them do all the talking.

[toho]

47 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Asset recovery, you go after the drivers assets. Start with the car and then move onto the property.

 

Dear ukrules, I also thought about that possibility, and we can have a look at it, but I fear probably impossible. Once upon a time I had a similar problem in Europe. Court ordered somebody to pay me. In the meantime the convicted person had put all his assets on his wife's name. So a typical case of "fishing behind the net"………..  And like BestB wrote: lawyers again. Lawyer and court are the only ones who benefit.

[toho]

WHAT DO MEMBERS THINK OF FOLLOWING IDEAS:

- possible quick result without all the red tape:

  threatening Insurance company with "naming and shaming" in national Thai forum?

  the damage for them will be significantly higher than 500.000 THB.

 

- find lawyer who will work on a "no cure- no pay" basis (commision to be agreed upon) to get payment

  from insurance company or convicted person.

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, toho said:

WHAT DO MEMBERS THINK OF FOLLOWING IDEAS:

- possible quick result without all the red tape:

  threatening Insurance company with "naming and shaming" in national Thai forum?

  the damage for them will be significantly higher than 500.000 THB.

 

- find lawyer who will work on a "no cure- no pay" basis (commision to be agreed upon) to get payment

  from insurance company or convicted person.

First option a big NO NO, Insurance will sue you for libel and not only take all but put you in jail as well

Second also almost impossible to find. I was never able to find a thai lawyer in this terms, Some agree to accept lump sum of say 200 000 plus % from the winnings

 

Contact the ombudsman and the government help line. Without knowing more info, for the life of me i can not see the reason for refusing to pay and must also say, cannot understand why amount is rather little.

 

[from the home of CC]

Personally I don't believe you can get a lawyer to work in a no win no pay manner but I guess anything is possible. Certainly validates my impressions of lawyers and insurance companies, world wide.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, toho said:

Dear lemonjelly, the driver had a camera in his car, but "coincidentally" that camera did not function that moment.

 

Hold on a moment...

 

1 hour ago, BestB said:

insurance must pay , why they are not paying is a mystery , if driver was not arrested and charged means a genuine accident so once again insurance must pay. 

With regard to my recently renewed 1st Class insurance that includes a generous discount for a dashcam, with the prevalence of dashcams that either aint plugged in (seen that), buggered batteries (had that) and preloaded with cheap, corrupted and unreadable memory cards (ditto), there's now a very well written disclaimer that handily negates the liability coverage if the camera was in any way inoperable at the time of any prang.

 

It would appear that possibly the insurance company have wiggled due to the above, knowing that the OP's friend is faced with chasing the driver who claims he is willing to got to jail rather than admit culpability, ie. pay up. Since Thailand is built on krieng-jai, a cultural trait laid raw in motor accidents and their aftermath, I would wager that the unfortunate driver is equally pissed-off with the sloping shoulders of his insurers.

 

Ombudsman job for sure. They badly need a kicking.

 

In the meantime, anyone else tootling around with the "800 baht bargain on lazada" dashcam defense, when was the last time you actually checked what was being recorded? It's working OK? Great! Now go check the small print on your insurance policy so you know exactly what you're paying for.

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Hold on a moment...

 

With regard to my recently renewed 1st Class insurance that includes a generous discount for a dashcam, with the prevalence of dashcams that either aint plugged in (seen that), buggered batteries (had that) and preloaded with cheap, corrupted and unreadable memory cards (ditto), there's now a very well written disclaimer that handily negates the liability coverage if the camera was in any way inoperable at the time of any prang.

 

It would appear that possibly the insurance company have wiggled due to the above, knowing that the OP's friend is faced with chasing the driver who claims he is willing to got to jail rather than admit culpability, ie. pay up. Since Thailand is built on krieng-jai, a cultural trait laid raw in motor accidents and their aftermath, I would wager that the unfortunate driver is equally pissed-off with the sloping shoulders of his insurers.

 

Ombudsman job for sure. They badly need a kicking.

 

In the meantime, anyone else tootling around with the "800 baht bargain on lazada" dashcam defense, when was the last time you actually checked what was being recorded? It's working OK? Great! Now go check the small print on your insurance policy so you know exactly what you're paying for.

I would agree with you but 2 things to note, the compulsory insurance, should have paid out some money before the 1st class.

 

Also unless drivers policy somehow different  but with all 1st class policies i ever had in Thailand it never stipulated to have any kind of cam.

 

I can understand cam situation if it was who is at fault, but death of a person is pretty much definite , nothing to determine there.

 

It is also possible driver has some kind of excess to pay,which he is not paying and hence insurance not paying, but as you said, Ombudsman would be place start ad lets hope they can sort it out and fast.

 

I would still contact 1111, every time i used it, always worked out really well for me on all sorts of matters.

 

Better to do more than less ????

[toho]

Dear BestB and home of CC, thank you both for your comments.

 

Having read everything, I think that for now I will advise the family to follow this modus operandi:

contact following organizations:

1: Government helpline +

2: Ombudsman +

3: OIC.

See how that works out.

 

If this does not lead to a positive result, then, as a second option, I will contact a lawyer and try to find out if he is willing to work on a "no win - no pay" basis.

 

Thanks everybody for the valuable input, very much appreciated.

If somebody else might have another bright idea one of these days, always welcome.

 

[toho]

19 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Hold on a moment...

 

With regard to my recently renewed 1st Class insurance that includes a generous discount for a dashcam, with the prevalence of dashcams that either aint plugged in (seen that), buggered batteries (had that) and preloaded with cheap, corrupted and unreadable memory cards (ditto), there's now a very well written disclaimer that handily negates the liability coverage if the camera was in any way inoperable at the time of any prang.

 

It would appear that possibly the insurance company have wiggled due to the above, knowing that the OP's friend is faced with chasing the driver who claims he is willing to got to jail rather than admit culpability, ie. pay up. Since Thailand is built on krieng-jai, a cultural trait laid raw in motor accidents and their aftermath, I would wager that the unfortunate driver is equally pissed-off with the sloping shoulders of his insurers.

 

Ombudsman job for sure. They badly need a kicking.

 

In the meantime, anyone else tootling around with the "800 baht bargain on lazada" dashcam defense, when was the last time you actually checked what was being recorded? It's working OK? Great! Now go check the small print on your insurance policy so you know exactly what you're paying for.

Dear NanLaew,

"Coincidentally" the camera did malfunction that moment (proof was possibly deleted).

Family also thinks there was corruption. So a rather smelly situation. We will also try ombudsman. Thanks.

[OneMoreFarang]

If the driver has to pay does not mean the insurance has to pay. There are many reasons why insurance companies can refuse payment.

I guess you should find out if the insurance company has a valid reason not to pay. And then go from there.

There is a very different approach if you know the insurance company must legally pay or not.

Good luck!

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, toho said:

Dear NanLaew,

"Coincidentally" the camera did malfunction that moment (proof was possibly deleted).

Family also thinks there was corruption. So a rather smelly situation. We will also try ombudsman. Thanks.

I know of two road traffic accidents and one incident, one personal and the other two anecdotal, where the insurance company's assigned agent that attended the scene of the accident/incident and the subsequent compensatory wranglings did a less than stellar job of representing the insured party. On the personal one, calling the insurer directly and requesting a more competent representative worked. These reps work for third-party companies under contract to various insurance companies and you have to make 100% sure what is being discussed and agreed with both the insured and any claimant injured parties right from the get go.

[toho]

27 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If the driver has to pay does not mean the insurance has to pay. There are many reasons why insurance companies can refuse payment.

I guess you should find out if the insurance company has a valid reason not to pay. And then go from there.

There is a very different approach if you know the insurance company must legally pay or not.

Good luck!

Indeed, very true. I will personally investigate that one more time to be very sure. Thanks.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

I would agree with you but 2 things to note, the compulsory insurance, should have paid out some money before the 1st class.

Agreed and typically payout is less than 30-days after the claim. But that is capped and coverage reduces if insured is at-fault. This may be insufficient recompense for someone's not-at-fault death.

 

"Compulsory Third-Party Liability Insurance or Por Ror Bor is basic insurance that all cars are required to get every year under the Road Protection Act. Being the minimum requirement, CTPL covers only medical expenses with limited coverage when you cause the accident. It is up to 80,000 baht for injury and 300,000 baht for death–if it’s not the driver’s fault. When the driver is the cause of the accident, the coverage decreases to 30,000 baht for injury and 35,000 baht for death."

https://www.thailandstarterkit.com/lifestyle/car-insurance/

 

1 hour ago, BestB said:

Also unless drivers policy somehow different  but with all 1st class policies i ever had in Thailand it never stipulated to have any kind of cam.

My 2017 coverage simply asked if I had one. My 2018 coverage (same insurer) requested pictures of it in place and turned on and/or the receipt of purchase. My latest 2019 coverage (new insurer) simply asked if I had one, no proof needed but the policy included the non-functioning dash cam disclaimer after it was bought and paid for which was not mentioned anywhere during the application.

 

1 hour ago, BestB said:

I can understand cam situation if it was who is at fault, but death of a person is pretty much definite , nothing to determine there.

Agreed. There's something wrong about this. I am not sure if the typical Thai driver is even aware what a deductible is and I would think that most would go for either no-deductible (What? Me pay now? For what?) or the bare minimum. I think insurance is mostly still seen as payment for something that may not happen after all (not my rationale).

Edited March 3, 2019 by NanLaew

[toho]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Agreed and typically payout is less than 30-days after the claim. But that is capped and coverage reduces if insured is at-fault. This may be insufficient recompense for someone's not-at-fault death.

 

"Compulsory Third-Party Liability Insurance or Por Ror Bor is basic insurance that all cars are required to get every year under the Road Protection Act. Being the minimum requirement, CTPL covers only medical expenses with limited coverage when you cause the accident. It is up to 80,000 baht for injury and 300,000 baht for death–if it’s not the driver’s fault. When the driver is the cause of the accident, the coverage decreases to 30,000 baht for injury and 35,000 baht for death."

https://www.thailandstarterkit.com/lifestyle/car-insurance/

 

My 2017 coverage simply asked if I had one. My 2018 coverage (same insurer) requested pictures of it in place and turned on and/or the receipt of purchase. My latest 2019 coverage (new insurer) simply asked if I had one, no proof needed but the policy included the non-functioning dash cam disclaimer after it was bought and paid for which was not mentioned anywhere during the application.

 

Agreed. There's something wrong about this. I am not sure if the typical Thai driver is even aware what a deductible is and I would think that most would go for either no-deductible (What? Me pay now? For what?) or the bare minimum. I think insurance is mostly still seen as payment for something that may not happen after all (not my rationale).

Dear Nanlaew, thanks for comments. I have to check why Insurance company is not paying. Maybe, maybe, it has to do with "malfunctioning" dashcam. If driver deleted data on purpose, then he might have a severe personal problem, as this could be reason for Insurance company to withdraw, based on policy.  But this is all guessing, I have to check. If, however, Insurance company has to pay, then we will go forward with Government helpline, Ombudsman, OIC and possibly?? no win - no pay lawyer (commission basis). Probably we have to adjust strategy if Insurance company is technically right and driver is 100% personally responsible for payment.   

[BestB]

7 minutes ago, toho said:

Dear Nanlaew, thanks for comments. I have to check why Insurance company is not paying. Maybe, maybe, it has to do with "malfunctioning" dashcam. If driver deleted data on purpose, then he might have a severe personal problem, as this could be reason for Insurance company to withdraw, based on policy.  But this is all guessing, I have to check. If, however, Insurance company has to pay, then we will go forward with Government helpline, Ombudsman, OIC and possibly?? no win - no pay lawyer (commission basis). Probably we have to adjust strategy if Insurance company is technically right and driver is 100% personally responsible for payment.   

Was driver criminally charged? 

[Berkshire]

14 hours ago, toho said:

It happened on a quiet country road, the child was killed instantly, car speeding could not be proven. No drugs or alcohol involved. Driver was just "unlucky" to hit the child, so seems to me that insurance company should have to pay.

There's clearly not enough information to fully understand what happened, but it appears this was simply an accident. 

 

16 hours ago, toho said:

The driver told the family, that he prefers to go to prison than to pay,

I have Class 1 insurance myself and if it was me, I would let the insurance company sort it out.  They would determine legitimacy of the claim and whether any payment was warranted.  They would handle it all.  So to suggest the driver refuses to pay....that doesn't make any sense. 

[geriatrickid]

12 hours ago, toho said:

WHAT DO MEMBERS THINK OF FOLLOWING IDEAS:

- possible quick result without all the red tape:

  threatening Insurance company with "naming and shaming" in national Thai forum?

  the damage for them will be significantly higher than 500.000 THB.

 

- find lawyer who will work on a "no cure- no pay" basis (commision to be agreed upon) to get payment

  from insurance company or convicted person.

Get your facts  first.  You say there was a court case with a judgement.

Did you read the judgement and its recitation of the established facts to arrive at the judgement?  An insurer only pays if it is legally liable to pay compensatory damage. The judgement will state whether there was a finding of legal liability.

 

Get the court judgement and read it before you doing anything else. You will need it if you wish to retain another legal counsel. No honest  lawyer will take on an appeal or enforcement action without first reading the case facts and the judgement.

 

If the insurer is not paying, there will have been a stated reason, and either you are unaware of the reason for the denial of coverage or you have not provided full disclosure.  There is a possibility that the  person you assume was insured may not have been insured because of a false disclosure at policy inception, or a change in material fact that had nullified the policy at the time of the  incident. This will be  stated in the court filings.

[CMBob]

What was the court proceeding?  If it was a civil suit filed against the driver and his insurance company defended, the insurance company likely has to pay (unless, of course, there is some language in the insurance contract that says otherwise).  And if it was a civil suit and the insurance company didn't defend, that might raise the question of whether the policy was even in force at the time of the accident.  However, if the 500k amount was a criminal fine/penalty, I'm doubtful the insurance company has any liability to pay that.

In either case, sounds like the driver is personally liable for the 500k although collecting it against the driver is likely going to be difficult, time-consuming, and expensive.  

Best of luck to child's family.

[JaiLai]

12 hours ago, toho said:

Dear BestB and home of CC, thank you both for your comments.

 

Having read everything, I think that for now I will advise the family to follow this modus operandi:

contact following organizations:

1: Government helpline +

2: Ombudsman +

3: OIC.

See how that works out.

 

If this does not lead to a positive result, then, as a second option, I will contact a lawyer and try to find out if he is willing to work on a "no win - no pay" basis.

 

Thanks everybody for the valuable input, very much appreciated.

If somebody else might have another bright idea one of these days, always welcome.

 

A friend of mine was knocked off his classice Vespa by a mini bus jumping a red light, insurance only wanted to pay a fraction of repair costs.

 

My friend went to Ombudsman or the government agency in BKK and make no doubt about it they got the mini bus insurer to pay up the full cost of repairs.

 

They are by no means prejudice against farangs, the info from my friend was they're very professional and thorough.

 

Good luck.

[kensisaket]

I would say who better to ask for advice from than another insurance company.  If the family has any kind of an insured vehicle I would definitely consider approaching that company to explain the situation; and, get their take.  A good insurance broker can probably help as well.