How expats can live in Thailand and legally avoid income tax

[Beggar]

On 8/29/2019 at 11:30 PM, SantiSuk said:

Stated more fully "You have until March 31st to file for the previous year without any penalty being levied".

 

However filing late only incurs a 200baht charge.

 

I don't know whether the 200 baht penalty increases over time - I typically file in July/August when there are very few people in the local tax office and it's still only 200 baht

I filed in August in Jomtien. There was no fine. Perhaps because I looked so poor ????

[JimGant]

On 8/31/2019 at 4:57 PM, watcharacters said:

When I checked into a savings account refund,  receiving the tax ID number required producing my home country tax returns along with other documents.

 

I chose to let the government keep the  withholdings on my bank account.

I've seen enough info on this forum about getting a tax ID to tell me I might be wasting my energy trying to get one. And, as a Yank, that's where I want the story to end...

.... because it's much simpler to file my US tax return, and declare the Thai tax on my interest as a credit. Using Turbotax as an example, when you fill in the bogus 1099-INT for your Thai bank account interest, just put the Thai Tax withheld in block 7. As you check out, this number slides into a line item on the 1040 as a backout from your taxes owed. And, if the credit is less than $600 married ($300 single), no further paperwork is generated, namely the Form 1116. Easy.

 

What might turn you off about this is that the instructions say you're not allowed to do this, if the country taxing you will refund it. Ok, yeah. If I get a Thai Tax ID number, I can get a refund. But, if I just take note of the negatives on this forum about getting a Thai tax ID, which is the prerequisite for a refund, well then -- I'll just take the credit (and file away the negatives in case the IRS should ever ask, which is zero, with the auditing resources they have today).

 

Tax cheat? Hardly. The total taxes I pay, between Thailand and the US, are the same. And the Thai-US tax treaty says (as all do) that the country generating and paying the income gets first crack at taxing it. If the second country also taxes it, it has to give a credit for those taxes paid, per the double taxation language of the treaty. And why Thailand automatically refunds those 15% withholdings at source....? Dunno, as this is just standard practice when foreigners are involved -- i.e., withholding without regard to any marginal tax bracket or ability to retrieve. Just ask the Thai non US alien with dividends being paid to him from a US source -- 15% withholding at source (after W8BEN filed), with no recourse for a refund.

 

Anyway, will use Turbotax to avoid dealing with anymore Thai bureaucracy than Immigration.

[oznomad]

On 10/21/2019 at 10:33 PM, Rod the Sod said:

I am sure that it doesn't matter where your official residence is because after 180 days you are a TAX RESIDENT of Thailand.

Not really.

[Rod the Sod]

39 minutes ago, oznomad said:

Not really.

Sorry not sure what you are trying to say. It is a fact that if you live in Thailand for 180 days and your passport stamps show that, then you are qualified to be a Tax resident, and the Thai Govnt will consider you a Tax Resident for tax purposes.

 

I received my Swiss WHT refund today for around TB200k so well work the tB200 late fee for filing my 2007 tax return.

[oznomad]

4 hours ago, Rod the Sod said:

Sorry not sure what you are trying to say. It is a fact that if you live in Thailand for 180 days and your passport stamps show that, then you are qualified to be a Tax resident, and the Thai Govnt will consider you a Tax Resident for tax purposes.

 

I received my Swiss WHT refund today for around TB200k so well work the tB200 late fee for filing my 2007 tax return.

The devil is in the detail.

Yes, 'qualified to be a tax resident', as opposed to 'are a tax resident'.

To take it a step further, if you want to be tax resident in Thailand, you cant just say to your home country, look, 180 days in Thailand. I am not tax resident in XXXXX any more.

That will not float, in the majority of countries.

[Rod the Sod]

11 hours ago, oznomad said:

The devil is in the detail.

Yes, 'qualified to be a tax resident', as opposed to 'are a tax resident'.

To take it a step further, if you want to be tax resident in Thailand, you cant just say to your home country, look, 180 days in Thailand. I am not tax resident in XXXXX any more.

That will not float, in the majority of countries.

Agree. It is not a transfer of Tax residency, it is a new status. For the sake of this thread, what I said is correct. Cheers RtS

 

[kiever]

I have another question. Thailand is not a part of Apostille , therefore how I can make Legalization tax residency certificate from revenue department ? 
I talked with my government and they say the embassy in Thailand must make legalisation of document. 
i talked with my embassy in Thailand. My Embassy told me they can only legalise a thai document if the minister if foreign affairs of Thailand make authentication. 
so how I can make tax residency certificate authentication by foreign affairs of Thailand ? 
as far as I see , is it not enough to get tax residency certificate and just give it to my home country. 

[oznomad]

On 12/3/2019 at 2:09 PM, kiever said:

I have another question. Thailand is not a part of Apostille , therefore how I can make Legalization tax residency certificate from revenue department ? 
I talked with my government and they say the embassy in Thailand must make legalisation of document. 
i talked with my embassy in Thailand. My Embassy told me they can only legalise a thai document if the minister if foreign affairs of Thailand make authentication. 
so how I can make tax residency certificate authentication by foreign affairs of Thailand ? 
as far as I see , is it not enough to get tax residency certificate and just give it to my home country. 

Where is your home country?

[henry2109]

On 10/24/2019 at 9:33 AM, Rod the Sod said:

Agree. It is not a transfer of Tax residency, it is a new status. For the sake of this thread, what I said is correct. Cheers RtS

 

Hey Rod

 

Valuable Input, thanks.

 

Can you describe for me the procedure it takes in Switzerland to get your withholding tax back?

You file in you tax residency form from Thailand and what else? Which forms and documents?

So you need to send a new tax residency form every year to the tax man in Switzerland, for the according withholding tax year?

[Rod the Sod]

39 minutes ago, henry2109 said:

Hey Rod

 

Valuable Input, thanks.

 

Can you describe for me the procedure it takes in Switzerland to get your withholding tax back?

You file in you tax residency form from Thailand and what else? Which forms and documents?

So you need to send a new tax residency form every year to the tax man in Switzerland, for the according withholding tax year?

Hi Henry

 

Download Form 60 from the Swiss Tax website. This is a WT reclaim form. You will need to download a programme called Snapform viewer to open the file but all of that is easy. This is a well laid out document that also tells you what documents you need to send. You should have some kind of Dividend Warrant or statement from your Broker that shows the gross and net dividend received. This is required together with the Letter of Tax Residency. I was a bit concerned this would be blown out for one reason or another, but I am happy to say both reclaims for 2017 and 2018 have been received. It can take around 8 months but hang on it there. You are correct about the new LoTR every year because they need to know that each year you continue to be a Tax Resident of somewhere. If you constantly move around and never spend the requisite amount of time in anyone country to qualify as a Tax resident, bang goes your refund.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers

 

RtS

[freeman01]

This thread is golden, somehow after weeks or research on the matter i only found it now ...

Thanks everyone for the very details information, very much appreciated!

 

A bit of my own experience in case it helps anyone, I went to the revenue dept in Hua Hin to request a Thai tax id with the narrative of having income remitted to Thailand this year but they asked for proof and to come back with a bank statement and also a residence certificate.

As i didnt didnt have anything to show at the time I didnt go further yet, initially I was hoping it would just be a formality as many have stated on this forum but apparently it depends on which office you go... Welcome to Thailand ????

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by freeman01

[kiever]

Today I visited revenue department to file tax return and get certificate of tax residency. Taxman asked me how much money I transferred to Thailand in 2019 and  told me  I need to pay tax for this money in  2019 year. I don’t work in Thailand and I have no income in 2019.  I only transferred money to Thailand from my savings that I made in previously years , not from 2019 income. Taxman told me doesn’t matter which year I get my income and he insists that , I must pay tax for portion of money I transfer to Thailand in 2019 and he demand statement of my bank account in Thailand. According to him , I should pay tax for 500000 baht that I transferred in 2019 to Thailand based on my bank account statement. This means roughly I should pay 27500 baht tax. How you guys make pnd90 tax return with zero tax and get certificate of tax residency? 

Edited January 2, 2020 by kiever

[mokwit]

I really hope this isn't the next tightening.

[Jip99]

26 minutes ago, kiever said:

Today I visited revenue department to file tax return and get certificate of tax residency. Taxman asked me how much money I transferred to Thailand in 2019 and  told me  I need to pay tax for this money in  2019 year. I don’t work in Thailand and I have no income in 2019.  I only transferred money to Thailand from my savings that I made in previously years , not from 2019 income. Taxman told me doesn’t matter which year I get my income and he insists that , I must pay tax for portion of money I transfer to Thailand in 2019 and he demand statement of my bank account in Thailand. According to him , I should pay tax for 500000 baht that I transferred in 2019 to Thailand based on my bank account statement. This means roughly I should pay 27500 baht tax. How you guys make pnd90 tax return with zero tax and get certificate of tax residency? 

 

 

My missus spoke of this yesterday as it is obviously doing the rounds on social media.

 

Her take was that if your bank account receives 3m Baht p.a. and/or 300 credit transactions) then you are liable for tax on the amount involved.

 

Multiple bank accounts seemed to be the online solution.

[kiever]

But in this case all expats needs to pay tax in Thailand. If they don’t declare and don’t pay , this is also illegal.

According to tax man , this is not true

“We only need to pay tax if only We transfer money same calendar year We earned to Thailand but if I transfer money from previously years I earned , this is not taxable  “. Tax man told me this is not true. 

[JimGant]

 

4 hours ago, kiever said:

How you guys make pnd90 tax return with zero tax and get certificate of tax residency? 

You never said what country you're from..... Are you wanting a certificate of tax residency (whatever that is) to avoid taxes in your home country? Using Norway as an example, you need to show a Thai tax return for the Norwegian pensions declared and taxed in Thailand. Then, you get a pass from the Norwegian tax authorities. Don't pay any taxes in Thailand (your situation), no pass. Not exactly sure what you're trying to do? As you state, you have no income taxable in Thailand -- but is it taxable in home country, and you're trying to avoid paying taxes there, as well as in Thailand? Good luck, as the OECD countries are cracking down on "no taxation anywhere" thru badly written tax treaty language.

 

As far as the joker in the Thai tax office, there's no way you have to report your deposits in Thai bank accounts. Eventually, maybe, Thai tax authorities will be able to see direct deposits from overseas pensions, and per tax treaty, conclude they are taxable first by Thailand. But the prudent individual will filter these through a home country account, so as to not show them as same year deposits into Thailand (but, I suspect that "same year" rule is being closely looked at, as a major source of lost revenue).

 

Anyway, I'm kinda lost in all of this -- but were you also denied a Tax ID? And, if so, why? (No filed tax return, perhaps?)

[kiever]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

You never said what country you're from..... Are you wanting a certificate of tax residency (whatever that is) to avoid taxes in your home country? Using Norway as an example, you need to show a Thai tax return for the Norwegian pensions declared and taxed in Thailand. Then, you get a pass from the Norwegian tax authorities. Don't pay any taxes in Thailand (your situation), no pass. Not exactly sure what you're trying to do? As you state, you have no income taxable in Thailand -- but is it taxable in home country, and you're trying to avoid paying taxes there, as well as in Thailand? Good luck, as the OECD countries are cracking down on "no taxation anywhere" thru badly written tax treaty language.

 

As far as the joker in the Thai tax office, there's no way you have to report your deposits in Thai bank accounts. Eventually, maybe, Thai tax authorities will be able to see direct deposits from overseas pensions, and per tax treaty, conclude they are taxable first by Thailand. But the prudent individual will filter these through a home country account, so as to not show them as same year deposits into Thailand (but, I suspect that "same year" rule is being closely looked at, as a major source of lost revenue).

 

Anyway, I'm kinda lost in all of this -- but were you also denied a Tax ID? And, if so, why? (No filed tax return, perhaps?)

I have  tax id. I don’t make anything illegal. I live in Thailand and in 2019 I spent here in Thailand 9 months. Therefore I have right to get certificate of tax residency. There is not anything wrong here. 

 

i have withholding tax in my home country and I want to get it back. If I have certificate of residency I will get withholding tax back. That is same thing other punters write in this topic. 
I just didn’t understand why thai tax office told me I should pay tax for the money I transferred to Thailand in 2019, doesn’t matter which year I earned this money. Rules are changed ?

Edited January 2, 2020 by kiever

[userabcd]

1 hour ago, kiever said:

I have  tax id. I don’t make anything illegal. I live in Thailand and in 2019 I spent here in Thailand 9 months. Therefore I have right to get certificate of tax residency. There is not anything wrong here. 

 

i have withholding tax in my home country and I want to get it back. If I have certificate of residency I will get withholding tax back. That is same thing other punters write in this topic. 
I just didn’t understand why thai tax office told me I should pay tax for the money I transferred to Thailand in 2019, doesn’t matter which year I earned this money. Rules are changed ?

In your home country they withheld tax on what (dividends, interest, capital gains?) If so what are the rules in your home country about taxing your income where it is generated?

 

If you are trying to get a tax residence certificate in Thailand you need to pay tax and submit tax returns. RD on their website list the requirements for what is needed for getting a tax residence certificate. Just living in Thailand does not suffice.

 

What does your home country say about residence, just living in a other country does not automatically confer non residence for tax purposes and also depends on your ties back to your home country. All this depends on your home country tax rules.

 

Maybe your home country tax office want you to show them that you have paid tax on what you are trying to reclaim from them (double taxation and applicable under the treaty) and then they will reimburse the tax provided you show them you have already paid tax on that income where you currently live.

Edited January 2, 2020 by userabcd

[kiever]

34 minutes ago, userabcd said:

In your home country they withheld tax on what (dividends, interest, capital gains?) If so what are the rules in your home country about taxing your income where it is generated?

 

If you are trying to get a tax residence certificate in Thailand you need to pay tax and submit tax returns. RD on their website list the requirements for what is needed for getting a tax residence certificate. Just living in Thailand does not suffice.

 

What does your home country say about residence, just living in a other country does not automatically confer non residence for tax purposes and also depends on your ties back to your home country. All this depends on your home country tax rules.

 

Maybe your home country tax office want you to show them that you have paid tax on what you are trying to reclaim from them (double taxation and applicable under the treaty) and then they will reimburse the tax provided you show them you have already paid tax on that income where you currently live.

My home country (turkey) wants me to provide certificate of tax residency. That is all. Other users at Previously posts in this topic says they can Submit tax return with zero tax and get certificate of tax residency. 

[cornishcarlos]

If you don't spend more than 180 days in any country per year, where are you supposed to register for tax ??

[userabcd]

34 minutes ago, kiever said:

My home country (turkey) wants me to provide certificate of tax residency. That is all. Other users at Previously posts in this topic says they can Submit tax return with zero tax and get certificate of tax residency. 

The rules and evidence submission for getting a tax residence certificate are shown on the RD website and what you need to submit.

 

Do not know about a zero return but I think that would not suffice. You need receipts and returns to show you are paying tax in Thailand to get the TR certificate.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by userabcd

[DaRoadrunner]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:32 PM, topt said:

The OP makes a positive change from the many posters who have come on here asking how they can pay their supposed Thai tax obligations - when they have no current need to do so...........

So lets all let sleeping dogs lie. Don't go down the tax office stirring them up and giving them ideas on how to tax us.

[userabcd]

21 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

If you don't spend more than 180 days in any country per year, where are you supposed to register for tax ??

Your home country of domicile?

[cornishcarlos]

2 minutes ago, userabcd said:

Your home country of domicile?

 

U.K citizen but not lived there for nearly 25yrs !! Married here in Thailand but work in Singapore. Never in one country more than 180 days !!

[userabcd]

5 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

U.K citizen but not lived there for nearly 25yrs !! Married here in Thailand but work in Singapore. Never in one country more than 180 days !!

This is one of those particular cases and you probably need a tax advisor.

 

Where does the income arise and where is it banked?

 

It depends also on all those countries you visit and work in and what their tax rules are whilst you work in them.

 

In the UK from what I understand it is not 180 days but much less and averaged over a certain period of time and also depends on your ties (home, family, visits, time, health, accommodation... etc) Refer to the HMRC website.

[freeman01]

4 hours ago, kiever said:

I have  tax id. I don’t make anything illegal. I live in Thailand and in 2019 I spent here in Thailand 9 months. Therefore I have right to get certificate of tax residency. There is not anything wrong here. 

 

i have withholding tax in my home country and I want to get it back. If I have certificate of residency I will get withholding tax back. That is same thing other punters write in this topic. 
I just didn’t understand why thai tax office told me I should pay tax for the money I transferred to Thailand in 2019, doesn’t matter which year I earned this money. Rules are changed ?

Rules have not changed that's for sure.

 

I suspect there is an issue of communication here, many Thai people don't like certain cultures (muslim) and won't do much effort to understand what you are trying to say. Also certain cultures are terrible at explaining themselves and at speaking English which really won't help here.

I would either try to explain your case to another officer or a superior officer and if you get the same answer then get a local lawyer or accountant to do this for you, should cost you a few hundreds USD in fees.

 

What job did you performed to get this income that you want to declare ?

Can you be more specific on the discussion you had with the officer ? did you show them anything like bank statement already ?

How much amount do you intend to declare ?

 

[kiever]

You are right. There was a communication problem. I also agree with you thai people doesn’t like Muslim people but it was not valid for tax officers I visited. They are extremely friendly and helpful. The taxman yesterday I talked had no enough information. I did it today with other officer.  I already go with my Thai gf and today I talked with another officer. I explained myself by help of my Thai gf. I signed a statement that I have no income in 2019 and I live with  My savings from previously years. I paid zero tax and make tax return. And then they take my passport to calculate how many days I stay in Thailand and they told me after 3 days my residency certificate is ready. That is all. Pay zero tax and be tax resident in Thailand. I love this country. 

[freeman01]

Ahah very nice!

Gonna do something like that so very useful information, thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, kiever said:

You are right. There was a communication problem. I also agree with you thai people doesn’t like Muslim people but it was not valid for tax officers I visited. They are extremely friendly and helpful. The taxman yesterday I talked had no enough information. I did it today with other officer.  I already go with my Thai gf and today I talked with another officer. I explained myself by help of my Thai gf. I signed a statement that I have no income in 2019 and I live with  My savings from previously years. I paid zero tax and make tax return. And then they take my passport to calculate how many days I stay in Thailand and they told me after 3 days my residency certificate is ready. That is all. Pay zero tax and be tax resident in Thailand. I love this country. 

The other option I would guess is to have a savings account, taxed at source, and file a return on that 'income' which will usually be refunded as the deductions are far under the tax threshold. 

 

 

[kiever]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

The other option I would guess is to have a savings account, taxed at source, and file a return on that 'income' which will usually be refunded as the deductions are far under the tax threshold. 

 

 

If I do as you said , which kind of tax return I will file ? Now I did pnd90 tax return.  To claim withholding tax , I will still file pnd90 or another form for tax return ?

Edited January 3, 2020 by kiever