*****why**** the USA cannot verify pensions

[WeekendRaider]

increasingly we no longer refer to any at all monthly pension as a "pension" in the USA.   those are now called "entitlements".  and they are entitlements from the perspective of pension laws as changed in the early years of the Reagan administration.  

this is why the USA cannot verify a monthly pension amount.  

this is why there are almost countless issues involving this.. even to the extent of "traps for the unwary" in using it this year as well, even though we were told the income affidavits are "good" for 6 months.  they cannot be corrected for instance.   and, as just one example of what can go wrong,  before income affidavits were sworn to at a date not far removed from when they would be used.  now it is up to 6 months later.  thus, in my case for instance, I simply had not known, or could even have imagined from an American legal and accounting view, that the fx rate at the time of applying for a retirement visa extension would be applied to a 4 month old affidavit.  but it does makes sense, but only if you "believe" that pensions are relatively fixed from month to month.  but in the USA that has not been true for several decades.  in the law.  and in our culture, because they are our pension and trust fund laws.

that Thai immigration laws and regulations assume generally that a pension is a relatively fixed amount based on a monthly payout system of some kind is the crux of countless issues that will continue to come up. 

and here's a practical consideration for Thailand to add on top of this mix.  the post 1980 something pensions, which we also call "401ks" or "IRA accounts" [they are trusts, not "accounts" by the way, "account" is a marketing term] easily allow us to hold Thai or other AEC registered securities making our pensions even stronger, because they are easily hedged in Thai Baht or local currencies that do the same equivalent, unlike fixed US dollar.... I know this will upset some folks.... unlike fixed US dollar entitlements... that our grandparents used to call "pensions".

there's also that transfers are expensive and difficult, and not monthly at all.  I have to send a very lengthy digital fax to get a SWIFT done.  do that every month?  I don't even like reading about that.  I will switch to the bank thing.  I don't understand yet what recent SWIFT changes are though.

I have a MS Tax from a US law school and was an enrolled IRS agent.  this is the law.  it is also increasingly how we view these payment system for old age.  whether folks "like"  the old or new way better or not.  what is is.

the monthly amount should be a figure for a prior tax year average monthly 1099-R amount, "speaking roughly".  verified by 1099-R's and other IRS documents.  that the USA and Thailand can find some way to share electronically.  that would be excellent, but yes it involves a law change and cooperation between the governments.  as for being responsible to not take too much of a distribution from an IRA trust account... that any hedging your pension.... are things we take responsibility for.  it is our own risk.  it's not much of a risk though for 99% of us.  
 

                     

Edited March 10, 2019 by WeekendRaider

[steve187]

i read and re-read this post and didn't really get any information from it, maybe as it talking about USA pension then it needs a USA citizen to understand it, 

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

[ThaiBunny]

6 minutes ago, steve187 said:

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

I agree completely.  I get a Social Security pension from the US together with a pension from a completely different country where I also worked. There's no way any one embassy could possibly verify my income (even if they wanted to)

[lamyai3]

18 minutes ago, steve187 said:

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

Supposedly. Except some immigration offices appear to have been asking for pension letters. The word cluster<deleted> springs to mind. 

[Longcut]

Military pensions are just that. Pensions!  They are not entitlements. SSA is actually not an entitlement either. It is something that has been paid into most of the persons life. Politicians like to call it an entitlement so that they can manipulate and borrow from it. Illegally of course.

[Date Masamune]

Social Security is not a Pension. It is funded by workers and employers through taxes.

Pensions are always employer or govt. funded. This doesn"t matter to  Thai immigration as it appears as a guaranteed govt payment for life, with other benefits

SS it is more akin to an insurance policy if you ask anybody well versed in Retirement/Benefits and Investment. 

• Worked on the railroad or have a military/govt gension? Your social security will be reduced in many cases.
• Kill your wife? You are not getting here social security benefit, and if you are in jail more than 30 days you wont get it anyway. That is law.

If you have a private pension or 401k retirement plans it's your money. 

The US consul never VERIFIED income, even from Govt. sources, and were never in a position to do so as the Thais wanted.  They only provided an affidavit that a person made a statuatory declaration. Many lied so here we are. 

[Thaidream]

55 minutes ago, WeekendRaider said:

increasingly we no longer refer to any at all monthly pension as a "pension" in the USA.   those are now called "entitlements".  and they are entitlements from the perspective of pension laws as changed in the early years of the Reagan administration.  

The Thai Immigration office could care less what you call your  monthly income- they want to know you have 65K each month and it will last into the future for at least the year of the extension you were applying for.

 

The Us Embassy letter fulfilled the purpose- because under penalty of perjury one self certified they had the income and the Embassy took the Oath which made it a felony if you lied.  If Thai immigration had any doubts about the letter- they could have asked the applicant to provide the 'proof'.  That proof  could be letters of award from Social Security; a veterans or military pension or  even rental income from a house.  Secondary evidence would be showing the same exact amounts going into your  Bank Account whether  US or Thai.

 

MOre evidence  would be the means of obtaining your money in Thailand-   ATM slips'ATM Cards or your Thai bankbook.

 

No one can go to the point of issuance of any income and get 'proof'= privacy laws exist anywhere- so you do the next best thing by showing  first; secondary and tertiary  documentation .

 

The US Embassy could have  easily altered it's statement  on the Embassy Letter by stating the applicant presented documentation self certifying   $XXXX received from  XXXX Company/Source.  The applicant  has sworn under penalty of perjury this information is true and accurate.

 

Only 4 Embassies have stopped the letters but the rest of the Embassies in Thailand are providing them . They have not altered their system and they do not  verify from original source.

 

The Us Embassy  simply does not want to  do this anymore In Thailand  for  a reason known only to them

Edited March 10, 2019 by Thaidream

[jmd8800]

A defined pension is deferred wages. In the 70s and 80s, people should have been smart enough to demand that they were given defined pension plans as a part of their employment. People also should have required congress to bolster and secure the Social Security system.

 

Instead many many people drank the Reaganomics kool-aid and bought into the free market ideologies and now lots are people are finding themselves screwed. Markets looked good as the US went off the gold standard and Wall St went nuts with globalization and neo-liberalism. But that is coming to a close.

 

Now people post on Thaivisa that those people who lost out in the big con are people who made bad decisions in life. Go figure.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by jmd8800

[notamember]

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The Thai Immigration office could care less what you call your  monthly income- they want to know you have 65K each month and it will last into the future for at least the year of the extension you were applying for.

 

The Us Embassy letter fulfilled the purpose- because under penalty of perjury one self certified they had the income and the Embassy took the Oath which made it a felony if you lied.  If Thai immigration had any doubts about the letter- they could have asked the applicant to provide the 'proof'.  That proof  could be letters of aware from Social Security; a veterans or military pension or  even rental income from a house.  Secondary evidence would be showing the same exact amounts going into your  Bank Account whether  US or Thai.

 

MOre evidence  would be the means of obtaining your money in Thailand-   ATM slips'ATM Cards or your Thai bankbook.

 

No one can go to the point of issuance of any income and get 'proof'= privacy laws exist anywhere- so you do the next best thing by showing  first; secondary and tertiary  documentation .

 

The US Embassy could have  easily altered it's statement  on the Embassy Letter by stating the applicant presented documentation self certifying   $XXXX received from  XXXX Company/Source.  The applicant  has sworn under penalty of perjury this information is true and accurate.

 

Only 4 Embassies have stopped the letters but the rest of the Embassies in Thailand are providing them . They have not altered their system and they do not  verify from original source.

 

The Us Embassy  simply does not want to  do this anymore In Thailand  for  a reason known only to them

the applicants lied and they signed off on the lie

Having been caught out they stopped it rather than defend it

if those who did not lie need to blame someone for the loss of the service then blame your own countrymen not the service provider

Edited March 10, 2019 by notamember

[Puchaiyank]

Maybe I am a little naive, but I am banking on getting my 800000 baht for extension from multiple sources in the US and transferring into Thai bank prior to the seasoning requirement for long term visa extension...I really do not spend a great deal of time thinking or worrying about the details...

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, notamember said:

he applicants lied and they signed off on the lie

Having been caught out the stopped it rather than defend it

if those who did not lie need to blame someone for loss of the service then blame your own countrymen not the service provider

You have no evidence that anyone lied nor do I- but most likely someone did-  in every situation involving any entity someone will lie- but it is only a minority-   the way you stop these things is to have the applicants present  their evidence of statement- backed up by a bank statement showing the same amount  claimed going into a bank and then the evidence of it being spent.

 

At the same time- Thai Immigration can ask for 'proof'-  If they feel the applicant is lying- they can  not issue the  extension and refer the case back to the Embassy for prosecution.  Both the US and Australian Embassy have  Federal police presence in Thailand.

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

At the same time- Thai Immigration can ask for 'proof'-  If they feel the applicant is lying- they can  not issue the  extension and refer the case back to the Embassy for prosecution.  Both the US and Australian Embassy have  Federal police presence in Thailand.

Do we have any stats on how often that has happened - the prosecutions I mean?

Edited March 10, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[notamember]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

You have no evidence that anyone lied nor do I- but most likely someone did-  in every situation involving any entity someone will lie- but it is only a minority-   the way you stop these things is to have the applicants present  their evidence of statement- backed up by a bank statement showing the same amount  claimed going into a bank and then the evidence of it being spent.

 

At the same time- Thai Immigration can ask for 'proof'-  If they feel the applicant is lying- they can  not issue the  extension and refer the case back to the Embassy for prosecution.  Both the US and Australian Embassy have  Federal police presence in Thailand.

 

 

actually i do have evidence, i have an admission in writing that a US citizen had applied using an affidavit Assisted by a Chiang mai agent to the value of $2400 when he was only making $1880

This has been done with their Assistance for 3 years

[marcusarelus]

7 minutes ago, Puchaiyank said:

Maybe I am a little naive, but I am banking on getting my 800000 baht for extension from multiple sources in the US and transferring into Thai bank prior to the seasoning requirement for long term visa extension...I really do not spend a great deal of time thinking or worrying about the details...

Why not just get an O-A visa for 2 years at home since you have the equivalent of 800k baht in the USA?

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, notamember said:

actually i do have evidence, i have an admission in writing that a US citizen had applied using an affidavit Assisted by a Chiang mai agent to the value of $2400 when he was only making $1880

This has been done with their Assistance for 3 years

It should have been turned over to the FBI office in Bangkok  for investigation and the extension denied or revoked.

 

I never knew of anyone that lied and I certainly never did but  I still have to believe on a percentage basis that the numbers are low- The Embassy could  have eliminated many  by simply asking for documentation and then Thai Imm - if suspecting an issue also ask for the proof.

[Puchaiyank]

7 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Why not just get an O-A visa for 2 years at home since you have the equivalent of 800k baht in the USA?

Did just that in 2017...must renew Sept of this year...xfer around 95,000 baht per month using transferwise which creates an audit trail...should have money by Jun of this year...thank you for input...

[notamember]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It should have been turned over to the FBI office in Bangkok  for investigation and the extension denied or revoked.

 

I never knew of anyone that lied and I certainly never did but  I still have to believe on a percentage basis that the numbers are low- The Embassy could  have eliminated many  by simply asking for documentation and then Thai Imm - if suspecting an issue also ask for the proof.

Federal law stated they cannot ask for evidence, the applicant or an agent Assists with the affidavit preparation, the applicant pays and they stamp

Thats it, i believe that the majority lied as it was so easy. The minority who did not suffered for it

[Nyezhov]

1 hour ago, WeekendRaider said:

I have a MS Tax from a US law school and was an enrolled IRS agent.  this is the law.  it is also increasingly how we view these payment system for old age.  whether folks "like"  the old or new way better or not.  what is is.

Yes, I can see from the clarity and organization of your post as well as your use of language that you have such a degree. ????

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, Longcut said:

Military pensions are just that. Pensions!  They are not entitlements. SSA is actually not an entitlement either. It is something that has been paid into most of the persons life. Politicians like to call it an entitlement so that they can manipulate and borrow from it. Illegally of course.

Only paid into if one has taxable income. It is funded through FICA taxes (6.2% is paid by worker and 6.2%  paid by  employer). The reality is that the majority of recipients have not paid in  an amount that  covers the amount that they will receive. Retirees can collect at age 62 as long as they have worked a mere 10 years.  Entitlement is indeed more accurate.

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Yes, I can see from the clarity and organization of your post as well as your use of language that you have such a degree. ????

After reading that post I feel vindicated in deciding to do my own taxes.  Credentials aren't always what they are cracked up to be. ????

[lamyai3]

59 minutes ago, notamember said:

the applicants lied and they signed off on the lie

Having been caught out they stopped it rather than defend it

if those who did not lie need to blame someone for the loss of the service then blame your own countrymen not the service provider

Who lied - can you provide a single example? Whether by sworn affidavit, or as with the UK, falsification of documents provided?

 

Rather than drinking immigration's kool aid, you might want to consider that the citizens of the four nations whose embassies buckled are collateral damage, in a much higher level retributive spat.

[notamember]

4 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Who lied - can you provide a single example? Whether by sworn affidavit, or as with the UK, falsification of documents provided?

 

Rather than drinking immigration's kool aid, you might want to consider that the citizens of the four nations whose embassies buckled are collateral damage, in a much higher level retributive spat.

yes i can

i have it in writing from a US citizen that admits he lied on 3 years affidavits with the Assistance of a Chiang Mai agent

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by notamember

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, notamember said:

yes i can

i have it in writing from a US citizen that admits he lied on 3 years affidavits with the Assistance of a Chiang Mai agent

 

Can that be verified or certified or declared, and is that citizen of sane mind? And I guess he was friend of yours!

Edited March 10, 2019 by Olmate

[marcusarelus]

28 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Only paid into if one has taxable income. It is funded through FICA taxes (6.2% is paid by worker and 6.2%  paid by  employer). The reality is that the majority of recipients have not paid in  an amount that  covers the amount that they will receive. Retirees can collect at age 62 as long as they have worked a mere 10 years.  Entitlement is indeed more accurate.

Why do non Americans become confused by this? 

 

For an average-wage-earning, two-income couple turning 65 in 2010, the pay-in, pay-out ratio for Social Security by itself will actually be slightly negative —- the couple will have paid $600,000 in lifetime Social Security taxes and will receive only $579,000 in lifetime Social Security benefits.

 

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/feb/01/medicare-and-social-security-what-you-paid-what-yo/

 

 

 

 

[55Jay]

My eyes kept glazing over trying to read the OP.

 

End of the day, other embassies continue providing income affidavits.  Chatted with a Canadian guy online a few weeks ago who'd just gotten an income letter at his embassy.  Provided financial statements, swore an oath it was true, 20 minutes flash to bang.  Said Thai Immi accepted it for his extension, no problems. 

[lamyai3]

6 minutes ago, notamember said:

yes i can

i have it in writing from a US citizen that admits he lied on 3 years affidavits with the Assistance of a Chiang Mai agent

 

So you're saying sworn affidavits made to a country's embassy are less credible than the testimony of an anonymous TV poster called notamember? 

[notamember]

2 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Can that be verified or certified or declared, and is that citizen of sane mind? And I guess he was friend of yours!

for your satisfaction?

why?

no he was not a friend

 

[notamember]

1 minute ago, lamyai3 said:

So you're saying sworn affidavits made to a country's embassy are less credible than the testimony of an anonymous TV poster called notamember? 

you are saying that not me

you asked if i knew of one single case of a person lying

i do, 

 

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, notamember said:

for your satisfaction?

why?

no he was not a friend

 

Probably to prove your point, guess that’s not obvious tho. You crank about being false but can’t show otherwise  in your ridiculous reply

Edited March 10, 2019 by Olmate

[ubonjoe]

A off topic inflammatory post has been removed. A repeat of it will result in a formal warning.