*****why**** the USA cannot verify pensions

[lamyai3]

3 minutes ago, notamember said:

you are saying that not me

you asked if i knew of one single case of a person lying

i do, 

 

Did he swear to it? He might just have been grandstanding on a forum. Unless you're saying this non-friend wrote to you about it personally? 

[notamember]

2 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Probably to prove your point, guess that’s not obvious tho. You crank about being false but can’t show otherwise  in your ridiculous reply

i do not need to prove anything to you, that would be for your satisfaction, not mine

i could in fact write anything, attribute it to anyone and get it verified by a lawyer and you would still not believe it

 

i know its true, i have no reason to lie, i was asked if i could knew of one example, i do, thats enough for me

if its not enough for you, kindly move along

you were not even the one who challenged me to show one, you just jumped on the wagon like most of the sheeple on here

 

if you do not like me or my posts then just post some imoji that you think will bother me or block me and save your own blood pressure

[notamember]

8 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Did he swear to it? He might just have been grandstanding on a forum. Unless you're saying this non-friend wrote to you about it personally? 

yes , he sent it to me by email

no he is not a friend

yes he swears it was true and named the agent who Assisted him

[lamyai3]

12 minutes ago, notamember said:

yes , he sent it to me by email

no he is not a friend

yes he swears it was true and named the agent who Assisted him

What happened - did he go to jail? Was he caught, or did he just admit privately to having lied? Why would he email you as a stranger about it? 

[notamember]

Just now, lamyai3 said:

What happened - did he go to jail? Was he caught, or did he just admit privately to having lied? Why would he email you as a stranger about it? 

he did not go to jail, why would he?

he admitted that he lied with Assistance from an agent

he is still here, his visa extension is good for 3 more months

he wanted advise after the US embassy stopped issuing income affidavits

anything else?

 

 

[lamyai3]

5 minutes ago, notamember said:

he did not go to jail, why would he?

he admitted that he lied with Assistance from an agent

he is still here, his visa extension is good for 3 more months

he wanted advise after the US embassy stopped issuing income affidavits

anything else?

 

 

He'd have potentially gone to jail for perjury if he'd been caught for lying under affidavit. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer earlier with my question - can you show evidence of a single person who has been caught out and punished for lying on their affidavit? If there's no evidence of anyone actually having lied then it's just conjecture and the embassy had no reason to stop them.

 

Not quite sure what your role in all this is, as an agony aunt to the affidavit-deprived. Why would a stranger be emailing you to confide their woes and ask for advice? And how do you know they were telling you the truth, rather than just presenting a hypothetical situation? At least they swore on the affidavit in person, you only got an email. 

[ubonjoe]

Some baiting posts and the replies to them have been removed,  Time to end the bickering.

[notamember]

1 minute ago, lamyai3 said:

He'd have potentially gone to jail for perjury if he'd been caught for lying under affidavit. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer earlier with my question - can you show evidence of a single person who has been caught out and punished for lying on their affidavit? If there's no evidence of anyone actually having lied then it's just conjecture and the embassy had no reason to stop them.

 

Not quite sure what your role in all this is, as an agony aunt to the affidavit-deprived. Why would a stranger be emailing you to confide their woes and ask for advice? And how do you know they were telling you the truth, rather than just presenting a hypothetical situation? At least they swore on the affidavit in person, you only got an email. 

 

Then you should have been clearer and asked the question you really wanted answering and then you would not have to back peddle to save yourself

meantime i answered what you did ask , the answers the same

i know hey were telling the truth, they sent passport scans and past paperwork with the admission in writing and named who they were Assisted with for a fee

i have a copy of the affidavit they were Assisted with that confirms the numbers they were Assisted to claim rather than what they actually received

 it was not a hypothetical situation

 

if you have the imagination to dream all that up, i would have thought you would have dreamed up your own answers to what my role is/was

Meantime i have better things to do than having to put more and more meat on the bone for the benefit of TV's numerous doubting Thomas's 

you are the kind of folks that stop people posting on here

have a good day sheeple

 

 

[KarlS]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

It should have been turned over to the FBI office in Bangkok  for investigation and the extension denied or revoked.

 

I never knew of anyone that lied and I certainly never did but  I still have to believe on a percentage basis that the numbers are low- The Embassy could  have eliminated many  by simply asking for documentation and then Thai Imm - if suspecting an issue also ask for the proof.

I was witness to an undignified performance by an American who was asked by an IO to evidence what was stated in an affidavit. 

[gk10002000]

3 hours ago, steve187 said:

i read and re-read this post and didn't really get any information from it, maybe as it talking about USA pension then it needs a USA citizen to understand it, 

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

The original post author writes horribly.  He has many incomplete sentences.  If he writes something about having a MS tax, whatever that is.  But if he is a native English speaker, well, he must have failed the composition classes.  He does use some good buzz words.  The 1099 R showing distributions from one's IRA for example.  If he is trying to say that could be proof of income that is WRONG.  All that shows is that in the previous year, the person withdraw X amount of money from his  IRA or 401 account (s).  That is no proof nor demonstration of future income, which is really what the idea of a pension is.  A pension presumes some level of sustainability.  Withdrawing money from an IRA does not show any sustainability.  Now if one showed the portfolio inside the IRA or 401k, say Bond funds, dividend yielding stocks, or whatever, now that would be evidence of future income. 

[lamyai3]

27 minutes ago, notamember said:

Then you should have been clearer and asked the question you really wanted answering and then you would not have to back peddle to save yourself

meantime i answered what you did ask , the answers the same

i know hey were telling the truth, they sent passport scans and past paperwork with the admission in writing and named who they were Assisted with for a fee

i have a copy of the affidavit they were Assisted with that confirms the numbers they were Assisted to claim rather than what they actually received

 it was not a hypothetical situation

 

if you have the imagination to dream all that up, i would have thought you would have dreamed up your own answers to what my role is/was

Meantime i have better things to do than having to put more and more meat on the bone for the benefit of TV's numerous doubting Thomas's 

you are the kind of folks that stop people posting on here

have a good day sheeple

 

I'd have thought it was obvious what I wanted to know from the question I asked - proof of your assertion that affidavits were discontinued by the embassy because previous applicants had lied under oath. If there is no evidence of this, in the sense of people being caught out, then why were the letters stopped?

 

As to your role in this, your linguistic style suggests you're not any kind of legal professional. Someone connected with an agent maybe? I'm as baffled as when I first asked as to why a stranger would furnish you with all the information you've detailed above. 

[55Jay]

No use moaning about the income letters now.  They are gone, at least for some of us.  There's no doubt in my mind many income letters were fraudulent, and that some who can still get them from their embassy, even with "proof" supplied, still could be.

 

Stipulated, with or without personal evidence. 

 

Arguing about it is pointless, and pedantic.

[notamember]

25 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

 

I'd have thought it was obvious what I wanted to know from the question I asked - proof of your assertion that affidavits were discontinued by the embassy because previous applicants had lied under oath. If there is no evidence of this, in the sense of people being caught out, then why were the letters stopped?

 

As to your role in this, your linguistic style suggests you're not any kind of legal professional. Someone connected with an agent maybe? I'm as baffled as when I first asked as to why a stranger would furnish you with all the information you've detailed above. 

''I'd have thought it was obvious what I wanted to know from the question I asked''

now theres your problem right there

 

 

''I'm as baffled as when I first asked as to why a stranger would furnish you with all the information you've detailed above. ''

probably for the best and no more than i expected from the likes of you

 

 

[WeekendRaider]

I heard a scooter start and stop, over and over... I told my wife 'that's the mail'.... she thought no, it's our neighbor.  it was the mail.   Sunday lunch time delivered about 11:30 and included an official Royal Thai Police notification.  my visa is about to expire February 28.  today is the 10th of March.

another thought on "entitlements" and why increasingly any old style "defined benefit" is referred to as an entitlement.  we vote.  locally and nationally also, or at least we can.  and we are informed.  or should be.  public pensions that are unfunded or underfunded when our governments, local state and national are running huge deficits...... means something.  that something is better off flavored as an "entitlement" than a 'pension you can count on'.  that's not even including that those old style pensions are almost always in US Dollars and not hedged at all for changes in exchange rates, on top of being promises made by politicians long gone from office.  and no, we don't just have deficits.  and we have some extra unfunded liabs that are not even talked about.  yet.  disaster relief for floods, tornadoes... and such if 'simple physics' is as simple as we science folks believe it is.  that's not something the CBO even includes in the budgets with hard numbers at all.  they are subsumed as 'one time' events'.  of course they are.  gulp.
 

defined benefit pensions are easily "self directed" to include Thai securities, although they will be held in nominee name only.  bank secrecy.  so no refund, but... hedged.   

Edited March 10, 2019 by WeekendRaider

[Olmate]

14 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

No use moaning about the income letters now.  They are gone, at least for some of us.  There's no doubt in my mind many income letters were fraudulent, and that some who can still get them from their embassy, even with "proof" supplied, still could be.

 

Stipulated, with or without personal evidence. 

 

Arguing about it is pointless, and pedantic.

It’s ok to be accused of lying whilst being part of a legitimate method of proving income! !   When the pointless continuing backhanders stop so will your so called moaning. 

[mike787]

Unfortunately, we would like to know that.  Truth!  We NEVER will - likely!  It's like asking why we have to die.  Good luck in your search!  Once you have the answer, have you considered what then?? 

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, steve187 said:

 

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

 

They were, though from what I have seen in posts from people whose Embassies still issue them, sometimes they are given only for government pensions, which apparently  some Embassies can access the databases of.

 

Retirees in the US do not usually live on pensions as such. They have multiple income sources, and unless they are former government employees (which only a small minority of Americans are), only one of these income streams  (Social Security) is from the government. US Embassies and other US government departments do not have access to the SS database, it would be  considered an unthinkable breach of privacy and security to allow them to.

 

Anyone living solely on  SS probably does not meet TI financial requirements. SS is not designed or intended to provide a living income and the average monthly check is way below 65K. Americans are taught/told from virtually childhood that they need to provide for their own retirements and there are many private  investment/saving  modalities available for this purpose. So it is a quite different situation form that of say the Scandinavian countries where there is an expectation that the government provide the income necessary for a comfortable old age.

 

If someone wanted to see documentation of  my income, for example, they would currently have to examine 6-7 different sources.

 

There is no way the US Embassy could actually verify retirement income. They could, if so inclined, require people to present documentation and they could issue LOIs based on documentation seen that, as far as the consular officer could tell, looked plausible. However, they were not doing this, they were just in effect notarizing people's sworn statements without requiring any documentation, and this  was clearly (and understandably) not acceptable to TI.

 

What TI actually meant by "verify" and whether they would have accepted embassy letters based on a review of documentation only, who knows - I don't think that was ever offered by the US as an option. The UK, which was reviewing documentation before issuing letters, apparently felt thus was  not be acceptable to TI and so stopped. Reportedly though some Embassies still issuing letters are now doing so with wording that makes it clear they are attesting to having seen documentation, not to having verified it. Others, as mentioned, are issuing letters of verification but limited solely to government pensions.

 

The irony is that Thai IOs aren't "verifying" anything either, only checking that documentation exists and looks credible.  A true "verification" process by anyone is not practical. It is also not necessary IMO. There is no reason to think people without adequate funds are coming up with cleverly forged financial documents. That is not and was not where the loopholes were.

 

If one truly wanted to ascertain that people have the required income, Embassy letters based on a review of documentation would IMO be the best approach,  but some Embassies are not willing to put in the work this would entail (and it would have to be done by their own nationals,. not Thai employees, since the  whole point is that the documentation be looked at by nationals of the same country familiar with and able to interpret the types of financial documents that exist in that country).

 

As we have seen, relying instead on Thai banking records creates a lot of problems and does nto necessarily capture total income.

 

 

[Thaidream]

20 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

f one truly wanted to ascertain that people have the required income, Embassy letters based on a review of documentation would IMO be the best approach,  but some Embassies are not willing to put in the work this would entail (and it would have to be done by their own nationals,. not Thai employees, since the  whole point is that the documentation be looked at by nationals of the same country familiar with and able to interpret the types of financial documents that exist in that country).

 

As we have seen, relying instead on Thai banking records creates a lot of problems and does nto necessarily capture total income.

Spot on..... IMO the British Embassy  was actually checking documents but no Oath was given as one would have to appear in person

 

The Us  Embassy was not checking documents but did have the applicant swear under Oath that  what was presented was true.  This was self certification  under penalty of perjury. It's the same oath that is given in a US court room and accepted on any document one needs to sign such as for child support or to get a loan.

 

I would venture to say that Thai Immigration never explicitly demanded  anything but requested assistance in 'verifying 'income'.  The 4 Embassies that pulled out could not verify anything but instead of negotiating a solution found it convenient to simply say No. 

 

The way to continue the letters was quite simple-and would still be accepted today by  Thai Immigration  because as we know other Embassies letters are being accepted.

 

-An applicant appears before the Embassy with their documentation indicating they have income of  XXX Amount from source XXX.  The Embassy does a quick review of the documentation

 

-The Embassy issues a letter stating  'The citizen has self certified and shown documentation indicating receipt of a monthly income of  XXX Amount  from   XXXX Source or sources.

 

-The applicant takes an Oath under penalty of perjury  indicating the statement is true and the fact the Oath was given and the penalty for perjury shown on the letter. (US Code xxxx)

 

Instead- we are left with a chaotic system of varying degrees at Immigration Offices around the country causing  huge amounts of stress among people who have the required income and are trying in the best way to follow the law.

 

 

 

 

 

[OJAS]

5 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The Embassy could  have eliminated many  by simply asking for documentation

Fat lot of good doing that in the case of us Brits has turned out to be! Our "beloved" Embassy still pulled their income confirmation service despite the provision of supporting evidence being a standard requirement in their case!!

[Jingthing]

I have mentioned this before, but I will mention it again for those that haven't heard it.

I feel extremely angered (and I think others should be as well) that our U.S. embassy has basically shafted us by refusing to do ANYTHING for us in the way of income letters.

 

This action on their part has contributed to my feeling that living in Thailand is becoming not viable for me. I would need to do a COMBO method, and the COMBO method "rules" without an income letter are a total mess.

 

I will be more specific.

Social security benefits letters.

Military pension letters.

The USA embassies in Peru and Colombia can and do officialize such GOVERNMENT pension documents to the satisfaction of the immigration offices of Peru and Colombia. These are nations that normally require an APOSTILE for such documents, but the USA embassy officialization replaces that need.

 

The obvious question is WHY this can be done for our citizens in those two places (and perhaps others I don't know about) WHY can't the U.S. embassy do the EXACT same thing in Thailand?

 

I think the answer is obvious. They can do it but they won't do it. Perhaps they haven't even considered limiting the service to be for GOVERNMENT pensions.

 

In any case, this situation is awful and extremely unfair. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[connda]

What I find immensely interesting is that only 'certain' Western embassies aren't issuing the letter - in Thailand.  Go outside of Thailand and it's different.  So?  Why.  Did the Thai government lobby individual countries to end the practice in within Thailand.  Given the new rules seem to be a boon for Thai banks, it gives one pause to wonder. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by connda

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, connda said:

What I find immensely interesting is that only 'certain' Western embassies aren't issuing the letter - in Thailand.  Go outside of Thailand and it's different.  So?  Why.  Did the Thai government lobby individual countries to end the practice in within Thailand.  Given the new rules seem to be a boon for Thai banks, it gives one pause to wonder. 

It does seem odd that the three biggest Anglo countries in the world (USA, UK, and Australia) comprise most of those not doing letters anymore. Good luck proving some kind of conspiracy though. 

[marcusarelus]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I have mentioned this before, but I will mention it again for those that haven't heard it.

I feel extremely angered (and I think others should be as well) that our U.S. embassy has basically shafted us by refusing to do ANYTHING for us in the way of income letters.

 

This action on their part has contributed to my feeling that living in Thailand is becoming not viable for me. I would need to do a COMBO method, and the COMBO method "rules" without an income letter are a total mess.

 

I will be more specific.

Social security benefits letters.

Military pension letters.

The USA embassies in Peru and Colombia can and do officialize such GOVERNMENT pension documents to the satisfaction of the immigration offices of Peru and Colombia. These are nations that normally require an APOSTILE for such documents, but the USA embassy officialization replaces that need.

 

The obvious question is WHY this can be done for our citizens in those two places (and perhaps others I don't know about) WHY can't the U.S. embassy do the EXACT same thing in Thailand?

 

I think the answer is obvious. They can do it but they won't do it. Perhaps they haven't even considered limiting the service to be for GOVERNMENT pensions.

 

In any case, this situation is awful and extremely unfair. 

Thai American expats getting any sympathy from the USA is like asking TV members to pet soi dogs.  The US gov thinks we are pariahs. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Thai American expats getting any sympathy from the USA is like asking TV members to pet soi dogs.  The US gov thinks we are pariahs. 

I see your point but we're not needing sympathy. We're needing basic services that we're of course going to pay for if offered. 

[Farrows3399]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

This action on their part has contributed to my feeling that living in Thailand is becoming not viable for me. I would need to do a COMBO method, and the COMBO method "rules" without an income letter are a total mess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I'm not mistaken I recall you saying recently that you have been using the 800k option?  Or maybe your situation has changed. 

 

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Farrows3399 said:

If I'm not mistaken I recall you saying recently that you have been using the 800k option?  Or maybe your situation has changed. 

 

I have been but starting last year, I now have a pension income.

I had been planning for several years to start the COMBO method this year.

Also to add of course the 800K method has also become ridiculously more onerous even to the point of my local office requiring a bank book check in three months AFTER the extension is granted.

[WalkingOrders]

I have no clue what you are tslking about. No embassy was actually verifying anyones income which is why Thailand ceased allowing these letters. I just renewed retirement visa, using a Thai bank letter from Bangkok bank, 12 bank statements, and my bank book, it was not painless, but its done, and not that much trouble really, in fact skipping the trip to the embassy saved me money and time. As for routing of funds...My VA pension is dropped directly into Bangkok bank via the NY routing number...eazy peazy

[Sheryl]

Actually some Embassies were and still are verifying government pensions.

Many countries still issue income letters and they are accepted by immigration.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[CMNightRider]

9 hours ago, Thaidream said:

You have no evidence that anyone lied nor do I- but most likely someone did-  in every situation involving any entity someone will lie- but it is only a minority-   the way you stop these things is to have the applicants present  their evidence of statement- backed up by a bank statement showing the same amount  claimed going into a bank and then the evidence of it being spent.

 

At the same time- Thai Immigration can ask for 'proof'-  If they feel the applicant is lying- they can  not issue the  extension and refer the case back to the Embassy for prosecution.  Both the US and Australian Embassy have  Federal police presence in Thailand.

 

 

Thanks "Thaidream" for the simple explanation which apparently is too difficult for some to understand.  Verifying ones monthly pension income being deposited into a western bank or brokerage firm is easy to do for the American Embassy and Consulate clerks.  I'll admit these people tend to be less than energetic employees but they do have the ability to complete simple tasks if pressed to do so.  

 

There should be no need to make monthly deposits into a Thai bank or the 800,000 baht Thai bank deposit.  Many of us are out of the country for long periods of time during the year which makes Thai Immigrations solution to the visa debacle they created idiotic.

 

As for the former IRS agents smoke and mirrors long winded explanation of why the American Embassy is unable to verify monthly pensions.........you be the judge.  Three of my monthly pension sources tend to receive a cost of living increase yearly, so no they do not go down in value.  ????    

[onera1961]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

You have no evidence that anyone lied

I personally knew a few people who admitted they don't have the 65K monthly income. Their incomes were around 30-40K/month. But all lived in Thailand for at least decade on false affidavit. I don't know their whereabouts now.