*****why**** the USA cannot verify pensions

[onera1961]

1 hour ago, WalkingOrders said:

My VA pension is dropped directly into Bangkok bank via the NY routing number...eazy peazy

Good for you but everybody does not get VA pension.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I personally knew a few people who admitted they don't have the 65K monthly income. Their incomes were around 30-40K/month. But all lived in Thailand for at least decade on false affidavit. I don't know their whereabouts now. 

Yes, I am sure some did lie.

It's common sense.

The average U.S. social security check is significantly under 65K monthly but of course people could have been truthful and used the combo method.

But, seriously people, and more seriously in the very unlikely event this message gets to the U.S. embassy, how many people do you think would actually FORGE a social security income benefits letter or military pension benefits letter to show to the embassy to get an income letter? 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

But, seriously people, and more seriously in the very unlikely event this message gets to the U.S. embassy, how many people do you think would actually FORGE a social security income benefits letter or military pension benefits letter to show to the embassy to get an income letter? 

 

None. Ditto a tax return, annuity statement, bank or brokerage interest/dividend statements.

 

Pretty much all US based sources of retirement income will be reflected on  SSA-1099, or 1099-int or 1099-r or, in the case of rental income, on a tax schedule.

 

There would be a workload implication to checking such documentation, it would take longer than the Stat Decs did. But chance of people faking their way through? Virtually nil I would say.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

None. Ditto a tax return, annuity statement, bank dividend statements.

 

There would be a workload implication to checking people's documentation, it would take longer than the Stat Decs did. But chance of people faking their way through? Virtually nil I would say.

Yes, but I'm focusing here on U.S. government pensions because although Thailand does not limit income claims to that, it's rather absurd that the U.S. government represented by our embassy REFUSES to verify documents from their own government. The FACT that some other U.S. embassies are indeed able and willing to do exactly that, adds great weight to that point and their previous arguments that we can't do that, no embassy can do that proven as FALSE. If they were asked to "verify" all kinds of income claims they would be put into a position of needing to make more subjective calls on what really qualifies as income, and they could push back, too much work, too complicated. But looking at a social security income letter or military pension benefits letters would take like what, five seconds?

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[farangx]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

.At the same time- Thai Immigration can ask for 'proof'-  If they feel the applicant is lying- they can  not issue the  extension and refer the case back to the Embassy for prosecution.  Both the US and Australian Embassy have  Federal police presence in Thailand.

There was no verification, the system is broken.  It is hardly surprising the said embassies no longer want to be involved in this.  TI is now asking for proof of overseas income from everybody from said countries seeking such extensions.

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Hearsay, rumour, grandstanding! I don,t know of any who made false decs!

Let's not be naïve. Surely some did. They weren't asking people to show anything at all to back up the claims and I'm sure just considering human nature some were tempted to take advantage of that. But that's one thing. If they started doing letters again for government pensions only and the demanded to see the benefits letters, saying a fake number when no proof is asked for and intentionally producing a false government document such as a social security benefits letter is an entirely different level of FRAUD. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[jmd8800]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, but I'm focusing here on U.S. government pensions because although Thailand does not limit income claims to that, it's rather absurd that the U.S. government represented by our embassy REFUSES to verify documents from their own government. The FACT that some other U.S. embassies are indeed able and willing to do exactly that, adds great weight to that point and their previous arguments that we can't do that, no embassy can do that proven as FALSE. If they were asked to "verify" all kinds of income claims they would be put into a position of needing to make more subjective calls on what really qualifies as income, and they could push back, too much work, too complicated. But looking at a social security income letter or military pension benefits letters would take like what, five seconds?

It took me a little more than 5 seconds but........

 

When this issue of verifying someones SS letter came up I decided to give it a little test. I downloaded my letter from the SS website. I did a search online to see how to edit a pdf file. I found the software was already installed on my computer. (open source software so no cost) I followed the instructions as I went and 10 minutes later from start to finish, I was the proud recipient of a 3582.00USD per month pension .... well on paper anyway.

 

The truth is for any entity (courts, consulates, etc etc) there are protocols to follow to verify anything. This is not a simple matter of 'oh yea....looks legit to me'  A person's income is highly protected under US law.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

It took me a little more than 5 seconds but........

 

When this issue of verifying someones SS letter came up I decided to give it a little test. I downloaded my letter from the SS website. I did a search online to see how to edit a pdf file. I found the software was already installed on my computer. (open source software so no cost) I followed the instructions as I went and 10 minutes later from start to finish, I was the proud recipient of a 3582.00USD per month pension .... well on paper anyway.

 

The truth is for any entity (courts, consulates, etc etc) there are protocols to follow to verify anything. This is not a simple matter of 'oh yea....looks legit to me'  A person's income is highly protected under US law.

 

 

 

 

 

Then post a big sign saying do such a thing is criminal forgery subject of a government document to such and such a legal consequence. Again, the U.S. embassies in Peru and Colombia are helping the retired expats there in this way with government pension benefits letters. WHY NOT HERE!?!

[CMNightRider]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, but I'm focusing here on U.S. government pensions because although Thailand does not limit income claims to that, it's rather absurd that the U.S. government represented by our embassy REFUSES to verify documents from their own government. The FACT that some other U.S. embassies are indeed able and willing to do exactly that, adds great weight to that point and their previous arguments that we can't do that, no embassy can do that proven as FALSE. If they were asked to "verify" all kinds of income claims they would be put into a position of needing to make more subjective calls on what really qualifies as income, and they could push back, too much work, too complicated. But looking at a social security income letter or military pension benefits letters would take like what, five seconds?

Personally, I'm very disappointed with the American Embassy and Consulate staff in Thailand, by not providing Income Verification Letters for their citizens.  What these people have done is turned their backs on American retirees living in Thailand, and left us to deal with an ever growing anti-American Thai Immigration.  

 

It looks to me you people are just warming seats until you are replaced by other nonproductive federal employees as you move up to a better duty station. ????

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Personally, I'm very disappointed with the American Embassy and Consulate staff in Thailand, by not providing Income Verification Letters for their citizens.  What these people have done is turned their backs on American retirees living in Thailand, and left us to deal with an ever growing anti-American Thai Immigration.  

 

It looks to me you people are just warming seats until you are replaced by other nonproductive federal employees as you move up to a better duty station. ????

I agree with what you have written except that American Embassy Bangkok is a plum assignment for someone working in the US diplomatic corps.  It is the largest US embassy in the world and it's a safe posting.  If the people at the US embassy just didn't have to deal with the icky American expats all the time, it would would be the perfect sinecure. ????

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Personally, I'm very disappointed with the American Embassy and Consulate staff in Thailand, by not providing Income Verification Letters for their citizens.  What these people have done is turned their backs on American retirees living in Thailand, and left us to deal with an ever growing anti-American Thai Immigration.  

 

It looks to me you people are just warming seats until you are replaced by other nonproductive federal employees as you move up to a better duty station. ????

Like I said, I am very angry about what they did. I've already proven their excuses to be not grounded in truth (no embassy does that, we can't do that, it's a U.S. government policy, not specific to Thailand) in regards at least to government pension benefits letters.

 

Just putting this out there … as I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on t.v. -- are there grounds or potential benefits for a class action law suit to seek remedy for this wrong? 

 

That addressed to U.S. lawyers or retired lawyers and I'm sure we have a number of them reading and posting here. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Jingthing

[JackThompson]

55 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

None. Ditto a tax return, annuity statement, bank or brokerage interest/dividend statements.

 

Pretty much all US based sources of retirement income will be reflected on  SSA-1099, or 1099-int or 1099-r or, in the case of rental income, on a tax schedule.

 

There would be a workload implication to checking such documentation, it would take longer than the Stat Decs did. But chance of people faking their way through? Virtually nil I would say.

They (State Dept Personnel) cannot "check" those docs, though.  All they can do, legally (US Law), is say you swore "Document X" was genuine. 

 

The doc with the Embassy seal (or with a separate-doc having the seal) would then be presented to immigration.  That would cover the "certified" requirement of immigration - though they might invent their own limits as to the types of documents they would accept - even with the embassy-seal accompanying it.

 

This extra step might deter a few more fakers - but anyone risking a Felony Charge to fake their income is already an idiot, so not sure "how much dumber" they would have to be to go one extra photoshop-step.  

Edited March 10, 2019 by JackThompson

[keemapoot]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Like I said, I am very angry about what they did. I've already proven their excuses to be not grounded in truth (no embassy does that, we can't do that, it's a U.S. government policy, not specific to Thailand) in regards at least to government pension benefits letters.

 

Just putting this out there … as I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on t.v. -- are there grounds or potential benefits for a class action law suit to seek remedy for this wrong? 

 

That addressed to U.S. lawyers or retired lawyers and I'm sure we have a number of them reading and posting here. 

No grounds for suits of any kind. Consular citizen services are in no way guaranteed to any US citizen abroad, but are simply offered to assist citizens. They decided to roll this back, and there is squat anybody can do about it. To be honest, this administration doesn't really like the idea of merkins living overseas anyway. They should be home behind that big beautiful wall. 

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Like I said, I am very angry about what they did. I've already proven their excuses to be not grounded in truth (no embassy does that, we can't do that, it's a U.S. government policy, not specific to Thailand) in regards at least to government pension benefits letters.

 

Just putting this out there … as I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on t.v. -- are there grounds or potential benefits for a class action law suit to seek remedy for this wrong? 

 

That addressed to U.S. lawyers or retired lawyers and I'm sure we have a number of them reading and posting here. 

Not a lawyer either, but my understanding is that the government gets to decide whether it will allow you to sue them, then there would be issues of whether one has standing.  In my opinion, a very long and rocky road not worth taking.  But what do I know?  I didn't think OJ had a chance. ????

 

[Jingthing]

Not a lawyer either, but my understanding is that the government gets to decide whether it will allow you to sue them, then there would be issues of whether one has standing.  In my opinion, a very long and rocky road not worth taking.  But what do I know?  I didn't think OJ had a chance. [emoji6]

 

 

Of course I was just putting this out there. Doesn't part of the liberty we're supposed to have include having the freedom to live abroad? The blatant denial of a service that we now know they can legally do seems to me to be a material roadblock to our liberty in that regard. It does not seem partisan to me at all.

 

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[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Of course I was just putting this out there. Doesn't part of the liberty we're supposed to have include having the freedom to live abroad? The blatant denial of a service that we now know they can legally do seems to me to be a material roadblock to our liberty in that regard. It does not seem partisan to me at all.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

Maybe contact your Representative or Senators and suggest now that US Embassy Bangkok has stopped issuing income letters they might have excess staff that could be streamlined to save costs.  Just an idea.  The people at the embassy and State Department might rethink their opposition to doing the income letters if they have skin in the game.

[keemapoot]

5 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Maybe contact your Representative or Senators and suggest now that US Embassy Bangkok has stopped issuing income letters they might have excess staff that could be streamlined to save costs.  Just an idea.  The people at the embassy and State Department might rethink their opposition to doing the income letters if they have skin in the game.

Good post. The only play here is to get your reps or senators involved. I would try to identify which states have greater numbers of expats and try to get those expats from those states compelled into action to complain to their representatives and senators.

[jmd8800]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Then post a big sign saying do such a thing is criminal forgery subject of a government document to such and such a legal consequence. Again, the U.S. embassies in Peru and Colombia are helping the retired expats there in this way with government pension benefits letters. WHY NOT HERE!?!

You can't just post a big sign and say "Please.. Pretty please .... don't lie. Not only might you incur fines and jail time but it is not good for your karma." This is not the issue.

 

There are legal frameworks that countries have with each other for all sorts of things. Trade, immigration, tourism, banking, tax laws and compliance etc etc. What works for US / Peru relations, may not work US / Thai relations. I don't see any attorneys chiming in.

 

It is entirely possible the US and cohorts (they run in packs like wild dogs at times) put the squeeze on Thai for some sort of currency manipulation or whatever... who knows. There are so many things in the back story that we'll never know.

 

Get over it. You've been dealt your hand so play your cards. I've been dealt the same hand as you. I see an obstacle for me but I am finding a way around it.

 

 

[Curt1591]

23 hours ago, steve187 said:

i read and re-read this post and didn't really get any information from it, maybe as it talking about USA pension then it needs a USA citizen to understand it, 

i thought the letters were to verify income regardless of where the income came from.

It's just someone over-thinking things. It seems to boil down to "nothing is for sure".

[Thaidream]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, I am sure some did lie.

It's common sense.

The average U.S. social security check is significantly under 65K monthly but of course people could have been truthful and used the combo method.

But, seriously people, and more seriously in the very unlikely event this message gets to the U.S. embassy, how many people do you think would actually FORGE a social security income benefits letter or military pension benefits letter to show to the embassy to get an income letter? 

In any situation, there will always be a certain percentage that will lie- however to limit  the lies and fraud-  the Embassy should simply ask the citizen to present their award letter from Social Security/US Military/Veterans Pension or private pension provider or a letter from a brokerage confirming income.

 

The income letter should simply say  Mr  Citizen self certified an income of XXX per month  by presenting documentation  from XXX source in the amount of XXX

 

The citizen takes the Oath-swears under penalty of perjuriy it is correct and the letter includes  the penalty for lying   quoting US Code XXX/

 

All Embassy letters carry a disclaimer that the  US Government cannot guarantee  the  veracity of the document.

 

This can be done and is being done in Columbia and Peru-Go US Embassy Columbia/Notarials and there is a description of how it works.

 

I am sure Thai Immigration would accept this as they are accepting similar from every other Embassy .

 

I also am quite irritated about  how the Embassy simply eliminated something that is so vital and I believe they did it for their own self centered reasons.  

[JackThompson]

12 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

Get over it. You've been dealt your hand so play your cards. I've been dealt the same hand as you. I see an obstacle for me but I am finding a way around it.

Deal with it - yes - and plan as though we will never get the letters back. 

But, raising-hell in an attempt to get the previous status-quo reinstated is also a worthy effort.  Even if futile, it cannot hurt.

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Deal with it - yes - and plan as though we will never get the letters back. 

But, raising-hell in an attempt to get the previous status-quo reinstated is also a worthy effort.  Even if futile, it cannot hurt.

Especially because we now know that at least two other U.S. embassies are officializing government benefits letters and their excuse before was we can't do it, none of our embassies can do it. I call B.S.!!!

 

[sqwakvfr]

I have a pension adminstered by the State of California.  The Pension Board has a small unit that does nothing but verify pension.  The main reason for this is retirees use their pension incomes in order to obtain consumer loans.  The verification process is accomplished in some cases hours and at best a few days.  An email, a fax(they still use ths method) or a direct message on the Pension Boards website can accomplish the verification. From my perspective I have a hard time believing verification is “too difficult or too much work”.  I have confirmed the pension board verification unit will respond if an overseas Embassy made inquiries on my behalf. But it is “water under the bridge” and I will be leaving early 2020.  

[OJAS]

22 hours ago, connda said:

What I find immensely interesting is that only 'certain' Western embassies aren't issuing the letter - in Thailand.  Go outside of Thailand and it's different.  So?  Why.  Did the Thai government lobby individual countries to end the practice in within Thailand.  Given the new rules seem to be a boon for Thai banks, it gives one pause to wonder. 

Equally legitimate IMHO to speculate whether or not the Australian, American and British governments might also be working to their own hidden agendas. In the case of us Brit expat retirees, for instance, the cessation of our Embassy's income service has come on top of a number of increasingly bureaucratic procedures which have been inflicted on us over the past 5 years or so by Her Majesty's Government in the areas of passport renewal, State Pension life certificates and the legalisation of UK documents. Are we really talking about a series of remarkable coincidences here?

Edited March 11, 2019 by OJAS

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

I have a pension adminstered by the State of California.  The Pension Board has a small unit that does nothing but verify pension.  The main reason for this is retirees use their pension incomes in order to obtain consumer loans.  The verification process is accomplished in some cases hours and at best a few days.  An email, a fax(they still use ths method) or a direct message on the Pension Boards website can accomplish the verification. From my perspective I have a hard time believing verification is “too difficult or too much work”.  I have confirmed the pension board verification unit will respond if an overseas Embassy made inquiries on my behalf. But it is “water under the bridge” and I will be leaving early 2020.  

Yes. We've been shafted by our own embassy. Why sugarcoat it?

[Dave98]

On 3/10/2019 at 8:45 AM, ThaiBunny said:

Do we have any stats on how often that has happened - the prosecutions I mean?

Zero times

[JackThompson]

35 minutes ago, Dave98 said:

On 3/10/2019 at 8:45 AM, ThaiBunny said:

Do we have any stats on how often that has happened - the prosecutions I mean?

Zero times

It was supposedly enough of a problem that our embassies were told (last May) that their letters were not good enough.  But, not a single case that we know of was ever referred by immigration for prosecution to our passport-country authorities.  Yet doing that, and being very public about it, would have been the sure way to put an end to any abuses.  Which makes one wonder if the whole exercise had anything to do with the supposed problem in the first place.

Edited March 11, 2019 by JackThompson

[onera1961]

Of course I was just putting this out there. Doesn't part of the liberty we're supposed to have include having the freedom to live abroad? The blatant denial of a service that we now know they can legally do seems to me to be a material roadblock to our liberty in that regard. It does not seem partisan to me at all.  
Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 
 
 

Unlike the Chinese government, the US government cannot deny you to move out of the country. That is the liberty one has. I doubt a constitutional violation to your liberty can be raised for embassy stoping their service.

However, a class action lawsuits may be raised for the violation of the classes' rights to obtain an income declaration from the embassy when the said income is obtained from the US government.

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[Banana7]

If you're American, come to Canada. We love Americans, and the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok Thailand, will certify and give you a document accepted by Thai immigration as to your true and complete income.

 

You'll have to become a Canadian citizen, pay Canadian income taxes and file Canadian income tax returns.

 

 

[Jingthing]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 1:36 AM, Banana7 said:

If you're American, come to Canada. We love Americans, and the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok Thailand, will certify and give you a document accepted by Thai immigration as to your true and complete income.

 

You'll have to become a Canadian citizen, pay Canadian income taxes and file Canadian income tax returns.

 

 

I'm interested but your frigid country won't have me.

I tried the points test and it spit out a webpage looking like this -

https://giphy.com/gifs/animated-creepy-scream-AlmtWjdmd3uQU