'We are one' says PM Ardern as New Zealand mourns with prayers, silence

[sonos99]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

Go read what many female Muslims think about it rather than look foolish? start at the UN.

The suggestion to wear headscarves for one day in support of the Muslim community in Christchurch came from a Muslim woman in Auckland. She is I believe a medical doctor. She called this one day movement "Headscarves for Harmony". This idea was endorsed by the Muslim Woman's Council. 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214920

[mokwit]

14 minutes ago, samran said:

I’ll leave you to make your judgements. Not really looking for validation from you. 

Of course, it is beneath you because you occupy the moral high and intellectual high ground. That is not an argument, it is not the foundation of democracy, it is arrogance of a type that makes democracy unworkable as we are seeing.

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by mokwit

[sonos99]

 

Adern for Nobel Peace Prize...? 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215604

 

[samran]

13 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Of course, it is beneath you because you occupy the moral high and intellectual high ground. That is not an argument, it is not the foundation of democracy, it is arrogance of a type that makes democracy unworkable as we are seeing.

 

Fair enough. I’ve been thinking about what you asked. And for me the definition included the concept of ‘fear’ of Islam and things associated. But on further reflection, and re reading many of the posts on this and other threads, I was wrong to use that term. 

 

So just tonuse this thread as an example, a strong female PM dons a headscarf in a simple show of empathy for a community who were targeted for one thing and one thing only: who they are. 

 

As a response, we get the following responses from the TV journey men (remember you were the one who mentioned deflection): 

 

- what about ‘our’ culture?

- how about those Nigerians?

- they wouldn’t do the same thing for us!

- how about that homophobic imam?

- they are imposing their culture on us! 

 

A very us versus them theme shows itself. 

 

So you are right. It isn’t islamaphobia. These blokes aren’t scared of it.

 

They out and out hate it. And it shows but them trying to cast a bad light on ever Muslim. 

 

I could go on about lack of empathy for the victims (just cause of who they are) or misogynistic attitudes, but we can leave that for another time. 

 

Thanks for forcing me to clairfy my own thoughts. 

 

As for democracy, I’m sure the voters of NZ will reward her in spades for her actions of the past few days. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by samran

[ShortTimed]

 

Adern for Nobel Peace Prize...? 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215604

 

 

Why not?

They give that thing to anybody nowadays.

 

Jetsettin’ Al Gore got it.

Drone bombin’ Obama got it.

Aung SanSuu Kya got it for...what again...oh yeah, saving the Rohingas.

 

Why not give it to Arden for her role in “The Last Temptation of Christ”. Scratch that...for her role in bringing peace between Christians & Muslims around the World after how many centuries of bloodshed?

 

[sonos99]

1 minute ago, ShortTimed said:

 

Why not?

They give that thing to anybody nowadays.

 

Jetsettin’ Al Gore got it.

Drone bombin’ Obama got it.

Aung SanSuu Kya got it for...what again...oh yeah, saving the Rohingas.

 

Why not give it to Arden for her role in “The Last Temptation of Christ”. Scratch that...for her role in bringing peace between Christians & Muslims around the World after how many centuries of bloodshed?

 

Ridiculous I agree. 

 

But no more ridiculous than suggestions that Donald should be nominated for solving the North Korean nuclear problem. 

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, samran said:

One is taking the piss, the other is showing empathy. That you are comparing blackface with what the PM did just shows how bizzare your thinking on the issue is. 

 

As for Muslim’s not liking others dressing up as ‘them’ they seemed to appreciate it in Dubai last night. But as the Muslim spokes person, you clearly know better than the rest of us. 

 

The United Nations Special Rapporteur for Culture, Karima Bennoune, took to Twitter to challenge the movement, pointing to the case of Nasrin Sotoudeh, who was convicted and faces years in prison for defending women who took part in a viral protest against mandatory headscarves in Iran.

Burkas, niqabs and hijabs

Islamic studies lecturer Raihan Ismail answers some common questions about Muslim veils.

 

"Can I respectfully ask those thinking of participating in #scarvesinsolidarity [to] please also consider that millions of #Muslim #women do not wear [the] hijab, don't want [to] wear it, [and] many like #NasrinSotoudeh take great risks [to] defend this opposition?" she wrote on Twitter.
 

Asra Nomani, a former journalist in Washington, who has campaigned for Muslim reform, urged women not to wear a headscarf for harmony.
 

"It is a symbol of purity culture antithetical to feminist values. We have women in jail and dead, for refusing the interpretation of Islam you promote," Professor Nomani said on Twitter.

[BobBKK]

32 minutes ago, sonos99 said:

The suggestion to wear headscarves for one day in support of the Muslim community in Christchurch came from a Muslim woman in Auckland. She is I believe a medical doctor. She called this one day movement "Headscarves for Harmony". This idea was endorsed by the Muslim Woman's Council. 

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214920

Now, now. 

"This idea was endorsed by the Muslim Woman's Council."

I've corrected it but nice try "This idea was endorsed by the NEW ZEALAND Muslim Woman's Council."

Head gear, separation in the NZ Mosque +++ are repressive and are rejected by many modern Muslim women. YOU do not speak for Muslim women (and nor do I) and nor does the NZ PM who is spinning this terrible tragedy to avoid questions like "why didn't you ban the guns before". 

[roobaa01]

disgusting and revolting that the socialist pm wears the islam symbol of female suppression hijab on tv. but whatelse can be expected from a socialist

 

wbr

roobaa01

[ShortTimed]

Ridiculous I agree. 
 
But no more ridiculous than suggestions that Donald should be nominated for solving the North Korean nuclear problem. 

Oh no...I hadn’t heard that one !

Most news reports I see show North Korea nuclear program is developing as fast as ever.

Oh what a crazy world.

[Galactus]

She is nice and kind but wearing a head scarf and let people of NZ do this??
There is no such a thing as headscarf or burka in quran or islam.
It is something degenerated by Wahhabi islam bigots.
She needs to read about islam more.
Head scarf or burka are oppressive things and serves man to make their women like good, nothing else.

Sent from my SM-N935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sonos99]

11 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Now, now. 

"This idea was endorsed by the Muslim Woman's Council."

I've corrected it but nice try "This idea was endorsed by the NEW ZEALAND Muslim Woman's Council."

Head gear, separation in the NZ Mosque +++ are repressive and are rejected by many modern Muslim women. YOU do not speak for Muslim women (and nor do I) and nor does the NZ PM who is spinning this terrible tragedy to avoid questions like "why didn't you ban the guns before". 

No I do not speak for Muslim women in NZ the NZ Woman's Council does however and they endorsed it. 

 

Various NZ govts have tried to close the loopholes in NZ gun laws without success. According to many it wouldn't have made any difference as guns don't kill. 

[ShortTimed]

This is simply a question but the idea of WE ARE ONE...does it mean first & foremost, WE ARE KIWIS?

 

The reason I ask is that I wonder how many of the Muslims in NZ place their citizenship and identity as Kiwis before that of their Muslim faith?

 

I know Canada is a Christian nation, well maybe it isn’t now due to the minority population but most everyone I know in NWT is of a Christian faith background but none are very religious anymore. Sure we might fall back on it when a loved one dies or a child is sick in hospital or when we need strength to get sober but even the more religious amongst my community thinks of their Canadjan identity as a defining factor more than their Christian ancestry.

 

If members on here searched their sole in private then I think a good share would atleast understand what I am saying. They would know people like me and like I describe.

 

So maybe that is why I look at PM Ardern and her message these past days with some skepticism.

 

Maybe I am wrong as all get out...it wouldn’t be the first time...but I think PM Ardern is a bit clueless and naive if she thinks many Muslims are buying into this WE ARE ONE. I think they are Muslims who simply landed in NZ for opportunity and not because they want to be Kiwis and participate in Kiwi culture.

 

I am not a man of secrets. I have always wanted to be a Kiwi. No kidding. Everybody I have met there has been top notch with strong values and honest.. The culture and the beauty of the place has always held a special place for me. If I didn’t have aging parents and siblings then I would have been living on the South Island.

 

I wonder if the majority of the Muslims there feel that in their heart like I do?

 

Or if its just that NZ has opportunity and makes it easy for Muslims to practice their faith? Do they try to became Kiwi or do they remain insular?

 

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

17 minutes ago, ShortTimed said:

The reason I ask is that I wonder how many of the Muslims in NZ place their citizenship and identity as Kiwis before that of their Muslim faith?

You could ask the same question of Catholics.  A number of Catholics are distressed at recent legislation in some countries that seeks to intrude on what they regard as the "seal of the Confessional". Arguably belief in a Supreme Being should automatically order your priorities in that direction, otherwise what's the point? It's the Bible, after all, that in many places mentions the transitory nature of princes and potentates

Edited March 23, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[samran]

18 minutes ago, ShortTimed said:

This is simply a question but the idea of WE ARE ONE...does it mean first & foremost, WE ARE KIWIS?

 

The reason I ask is that I wonder how many of the Muslims in NZ place their citizenship and identity as Kiwis before that of their Muslim faith?

 

I know Canada is a Christian nation, well maybe it isn’t now due to the minority population but most everyone I know in NWT is of a Christian faith background but none are very religious anymore. Sure we might fall back on it when a loved one dies or a child is sick in hospital or when we need strength to get sober but even the more religious amongst my community thinks of their Canadjan identity as a defining factor more than their Christian ancestry.

 

If members on here searched their sole in private then I think a good share would atleast understand what I am saying. They would know people like me and like I describe.

 

So maybe that is why I look at PM Ardern and her message these past days with some skepticism.

 

Maybe I am wrong as all get out...it wouldn’t be the first time...but I think PM Ardern is a bit clueless and naive if she thinks many Muslims are buying into this WE ARE ONE. I think they are Muslims who simply landed in NZ for opportunity and not because they want to be Kiwis and participate in Kiwi culture.

 

I am not a man of secrets. I have always wanted to be a Kiwi. No kidding. Everybody I have met there has been top notch with strong values and honest.. The culture and the beauty of the place has always held a special place for me. If I didn’t have aging parents and siblings then I would have been living on the South Island.

 

I wonder if the majority of the Muslims there feel that in their heart like I do?

 

Or if its just that NZ has opportunity and makes it easy for Muslims to practice their faith? Do they try to became Kiwi or do they remain insular?

 

 

 

A-frigging-maxing.

 

50 people dead, and you question the allegiance of the victims.

 

what is the point of that?

 

No mention of the shooter. An Australian.

 

No mention of his ‘ideology’. No examination of that.

 

And as someone who’s family are kiwi, and who spends every second Christmas there (and yes you can mention Christmas), it’s a safe bet that if we judge you on your posts, the kiwis I know wouldn’t have you. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by samran

[ShortTimed]

You could ask the same question of Catholics.  A number of Catholics are distressed at recent legislation in some countries that seeks to intrude on what they regard as the "seal of the Confessional". Arguably belief in a Supreme Being should automatically order your priorities in that direction, otherwise what's the point? It's the Bible, after all, that in many places mentions the transitory nature of princes and potentates

   

I don’t know any Catholics that are as devout as the typical Muslim who pray 5 times a day and start their greetings to others with a reference to God or that kill another because of a comic about God.

 

But your point about religious persecution goes with what I am saying. NZ offers Muslims a place to live without religious persecution. Thats not even something Muslims can expect from other Muslim countries.

 

I don’t doubt youre right about belief in a supreme being taking priority, in theory anyway. But I don’t know any Canadian that would go to war to defend his christian beliefs but I know many that would to defend Canada.

 

 

[ShortTimed]

A-frigging-maxing.   50 people dead, and you question the allegiance of the victims.

 

what is the point of that?

 

No mention of the shooter. An Australian.

 

No mention of his ‘ideology’. No examination of that.

 

And as someone who’s family are kiwi, and who spends every second Christmas there (and yes you can mention Christmas), it’s a safe bet that if we judge you on your posts, the kiwis I know wouldn’t have you. 

 

 

 Didn’t we break up?

 

The shooter was a nutter. Already well established. Nothing to do with this topic.

Read the main article at the top of this thread. Its about PM Ardern and WE ARE ONE. (The culture of NZ).

 

I don’t question the victims but rather the Muslim community in NZ which I know nothing about. Hence the question.

 

If you want to talk about the shooter or his ideology then its a free country but nothing to do with me thanks. Same if you want to memorialize the victims. Nobody here is stopping you and you have had all these pages to do so but have not.

 

You say you have Kiwi heritage? By marriage then? The Kiwi fruit appears to have fallen far from the tree, eh.

 

 

[simple1]

7 minutes ago, ShortTimed said:

Wow.

Are you calling me an extremist?

You already called me hate filled in an earlier post.

 

Do the forum rules not apply to you?

 

But get this through your head and then go away.

 

I don’t accuse the victims of anything. I certainly don’t question their Muslim faith. I do not disrespect their Muslim faith. I am sorry for their loss.

 

I asked a question and instead I got some guy who maybe needs to practice some anger management skills or talk to a counselor or something.

 

But whatever you do or don’t do...just don’t include me in it.

 

Thanks

Quit the nonsense. it is very clear what your agenda is. From a previous extremely unsubtle post by you...

 

"This is simply a question but the idea of WE ARE ONE...does it mean first & foremost, WE ARE KIWIS?

 

The reason I ask is that I wonder how many of the Muslims in NZ place their citizenship and identity as Kiwis before that of their Muslim faith?"

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and the replies have been removed. 

 

Some inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed. 

[samran]

10 minutes ago, ShortTimed said:

Wow.

Are you calling me an extremist?

You already called me hate filled in an earlier post.

 

Do the forum rules not apply to you?

 

But get this through your head and then go away.

 

I don’t accuse the victims of anything. I certainly don’t question their Muslim faith. I do not disrespect their Muslim faith. I am sorry for their loss.

 

I asked a question and instead I got some guy who maybe needs to practice some anger management skills or talk to a counselor or something.

 

But whatever you do or don’t do...just don’t include me in it.

 

Thanks

Feel free to keep posting. Just don’t expect not to be called out for it as you would when chatting to your mates at the go go bar.

 

As for you being an extremist? Who knows. But when you pay the ‘us and them’ game, sow doubt about people’s motives purely based on their religion, well history tells us this is a well worn tactic...

[ShortTimed]

Quit the nonsense. it is very clear what your agenda is. From a previous extremely unsubtle post by you...   

 

"This is simply a question but the idea of WE ARE ONE...does it mean first & foremost, WE ARE KIWIS?

 

The reason I ask is that I wonder how many of the Muslims in NZ place their citizenship and identity as Kiwis before that of their Muslim faith?"

 OK.

 

This is how a dialogue works guys.

 

I asked a question. If you want to answer the question then great.

 

If you don’t want to answer the question then great you can just ignore the post.

 

If you don’t understand something I asked then you can ask me to clarify.

 

Then we can discuss.

 

But if all you are going to do is build strawman arguments and accuse me of things your imaginations created then we are not going to have a successful dialogue.

 

I simply asked if Muslims in NZ consider themselves Kiwis first and Muslims second or the opposite. There is no right or wrong answer. I said where I live that people consider themselves Canadian first and Christians second. Religion is not real big where I am from. Again, there is no right or wrong answer. I have never been to NZ and I don’t know how things are there.

 

It is not a judgement...it is a question.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[ShortTimed]

As for you being an extremist? Who knows. But when you pay the ‘us and them’ game, sow doubt about people’s motives purely based on their religion, well history tells us this is a well worn tactic...  

 

 As for you being a nutter? Who knows. But when you imagine “us and them” where it doesn’t exist, sow doubt about people’s motives purely based on the fact they don’t agree with you, well history tells is this is a well worn tactic... 

 

Go trip out on someone else. I relinquish the thread to you. Your attitude would take the fun out of a go-go bar.

 

 

 

[gomangosteen]

A Wellington artist whose work was shared internationally in the wake of Christchurch has been commissioned by Time Magazine to illustrate its international April 1 cover.  Ruby Jones' artwork depicting two women embracing - one a Muslim wearing a hijab - with the message, 'This is your home and you should have been safe here' went worldwide following the attacks

 

DUBAI: Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al-Maktoum, the Ruler of Dubai, thanked Jacinda Ardern on Friday for her ‘sincere empathy’ following the attack on two New Zealand mosques that killed 50 Muslims.
The world’s tallest building, the Burj Khalifa, was illuminated in a gesture of solidarity with New Zealand and its prime minister.

[ShortTimed]

Yes a good story and a good message.

 

This is your home and you should have been safe here.

 

But lets be real, every innocent victim of every trauma and violence should have been safe.

 

The children killed by gun violence in Chicago. The people in Syria who are killed by bombs and gas. The people around the world killed by drunk driver. The children who are victims of abuse.

 

Every day good innocent people die who should have been safe.

 

 

 

[ThaiBunny]

13 hours ago, ShortTimed said:

I don’t know any Catholics that are as devout as the typical Muslim who pray 5 times a day ...

Possibly you don't know Catholics who say the rosary often?  Every religion has its own obligations; what you are doing is asserting that the obligations of one religion compared to another include some independent scale of what is devout.  Muslims are more devout than Catholics because they are seen to pray five times a day.  Where do Catholics who regularly go to Confession fit in such a scale?  As for intolerance, the Inquisition has only just closed its doors, relatively speaking.  Your post seems a catalogue of reasons to despise Muslims in particular.  My preference is to despise all religious believers equally

[ShortTimed]

Possibly you don't know Catholics who say the rosary often?  Every religion has its own obligations; what you are doing is asserting that the obligations of one religion compared to another include some independent scale of what is devout.  Muslims are more devout than Catholics because they are seen to pray five times a day.  Where do Catholics who regularly go to Confession fit in such a scale?  As for intolerance, the Inquisition has only just closed its doors, relatively speaking.  Your post seems a catalogue of reasons to despise Muslims in particular.  My preference is to despise all religious believers equally

 What I am doing is saying that the average Muslim who prays 5 times a day is far more devout than any Canadians I know. Why is this difficult for you to understand? No, I don’t know Catholics who say the rosary often and carry rosary beads even though Canada is about 50% Catholic. What I am saying is that I don’t like religions that don’t treat women equally and that have problems with gay people like Sharia Law requires. PM Arden is saying WE ARE ONE and that is great—that is the society I am proud of. But is the average Muslim saying WE ARE ONE or are they treating women as subservient and gay people as deviant? Is the Muslim faith one of tolerance and acceptance? Very simple and easily worded questions.

 

If you cannot be bothered to respond to what I actually say rather than make up what you would like me to say so that you can hop up on your soapbox then lets just stop now, eh.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[Scott]

I worked in the ME for a number of years.   I had a large staff, about 90% Muslim.   None of them prayed 5 times a day.   Most went to the Mosque only on Friday, which was a holiday.  

 

There is a call to prayer 5 times a day, but like a lot of things, it is mostly ignored.  

 

[ThaiBunny]

31 minutes ago, ShortTimed said:

 What I am doing is saying that the average Muslim who prays 5 times a day is far more devout than any Canadians I know. Why is this difficult for you to understand? No, I don’t know Catholics who say the rosary often and carry rosary beads even though Canada is about 50% Catholic. What I am saying is that I don’t like religions that don’t treat women equally and that have problems with gay people like Sharia Law requires. PM Arden is saying WE ARE ONE and that is great—that is the society I am proud of. But is the average Muslim saying WE ARE ONE or are they treating women as subservient and gay people as deviant? Is the Muslim faith one of tolerance and acceptance? Very simple and easily worded questions. If you cannot be bothered to respond to what I actually say rather than make up what you would like me to say so that you can hop up on your soapbox then lets just stop now, eh.Thanks

What I'm saying is that many religions believe women are subservient (Buddhism among them) and believe gay people are deviant (the Dalai Lama among others) and I despise them equally.  Your ignorance of religions generally is glaring

[BobBKK]

49 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

What I'm saying is that many religions believe women are subservient (Buddhism among them) and believe gay people are deviant (the Dalai Lama among others) and I despise them equally.  Your ignorance of religions generally is glaring

Buddhism is not a religion but yes you are right there are few equal rights. A better measure is violence and Islam, in the modern world, takes the prize for that!

Edited March 23, 2019 by BobBKK

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Buddhism is not a religion but yes you are right there are few equal rights. A better measure is violence and Islam, in the modern work, takes the prize for that!

My perception is that ShortTimed, with a poor understanding of religions generally, is seeking to justify his singling out of Muslims for disapproval by comparing their practices and beliefs, as perceived by him, to be deficient when compared to those other religions (which he also clearly doesn't understand) - let alone his knowledge of history which is nowhere evident