Thai Immigration check Bangkok

[gunderhill]

Supalai Park  Condo Srinakarin Road BKK

Thai  immigration turned  up yesterday in their ongoing "foreigner" witch  hunt.

  10 officers, they asked the  the office  how many foreigners are living  there to which they replied they didnt  know, they then proceeded to stop every  foreigner going in/out  for their TM30-28 etc and passports.

There for half the day doing this.

Just for your information.

[lkv]

"If you have done nothing wrong, you should not be concerned"

 

"It's normal, they are just trying to keep the good guys in and get the bad guys out"

 

"It's because of the bad guys that we, the good guys have to suffer"

 

will say the Thai apologists.

Edited April 4, 2019 by lkv

[lemonjelly]

Desperately trying to meet joke quotas, they’d rather be doing something else than that.

[humbug]

good on you for letting people know

 

another round of busting balls when there are no checks and balances on these nationalists. tm28/tm30 were an easy excuse to raid residences to continue their rhetoric. in ratchada, i saw a imm. convey of motorbikes and pick ups, no helmuts by the way, on the 'lookout' at around 7pm, the other day, either on their way to sukhumvit or the night market. 

 

btw the more landlords etc give foreigners the wide berth, the more fuel on to an already worsening econonomy and property market. 

[Yeahbutwhytho]

So TM30 is a paper you get? Anyone have a photo for reference?

What happens if you dont have one - do you get locked up and deported, banned for 10 years?

[jackdd]

So when people ask about doing a TM30 we should not tell them anymore that they don't have to care about it if they don't plan to do anything at an immigration office.

 

6 minutes ago, Yeahbutwhytho said:

So TM30 is a paper you get? Anyone have a photo for reference?

What happens if you dont have one - do you get locked up and deported, banned for 10 years?

Depends on how the TM30 is done, if done online you don't have a paper receipt.

Max fine 2000 baht, but the fine is for the person who was obliged to do it. Might be the foreigner himself, but if for example you stay at your wife's house, your wife has to report you, and if she doesn't do it only she can be fined and not you (at least according to the law, some immigration offices might still try to fine the foreigner)

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Yeahbutwhytho said:

So TM30 is a paper you get? Anyone have a photo for reference?

If you did a TM30 report yourself you would have a receipt for it. In reality it should be the owner or the management of your residence responsibility.

 

11 minutes ago, Yeahbutwhytho said:

What happens if you dont have one - do you get locked up and deported, banned for 10 years?

No

At the most you could be fined 2000 baht.

[Yeahbutwhytho]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

If you did a TM30 report yourself you would have a receipt for it. In reality it should be the owner or the management of your residence responsibility.

 

No

At the most you could be fined 2000 baht.

And then I imagine they provide you with a TM receipt after the fine so you don't get fined twice by going to immigration and asking for one 

[visarunner]

1 hour ago, humbug said:

btw the more landlords etc give foreigners the wide berth, the more fuel on to an already worsening econonomy and property market. 

They should look also into the wrong doing of these land lords, I bet bigger fishes to catch....

[mngmn]

21 minutes ago, visarunner said:

They should look also into the wrong doing of these land lords, I bet bigger fishes to catch....

Especially if they are paying tax.

[samsensam]

 

sounds like it's not a witch hunt against foreigners but foreigners are being impacted by your apartment management not following the law.

 

my apartment owners supply all the required information on tenants to the local police. i was told an IO was going to visit me months ago but they never turned up. when i mentioned this to the apartment owner he told me that the IO probably checked the records with the police and as i was shown to be staying here and they had my up to date visa details there was no reason to visit me.

 

as far as i know immigration have never visited a foreigner in my building.

[humbug]

32 minutes ago, samsensam said:

 

sounds like it's not a witch hunt against foreigners but foreigners are being impacted by your apartment management not following the law.

 

my apartment owners supply all the required information on tenants to the local police. i was told an IO was going to visit me months ago but they never turned up. when i mentioned this to the apartment owner he told me that the IO probably checked the records with the police and as i was shown to be staying here and they had my up to date visa details there was no reason to visit me.

 

as far as i know immigration have never visited a foreigner in my building.

there are no ivory towers here, with the billions of rentable buildings it would be impossible to check all buildings. Its the unlucky buildings that are being chosen, zero to do with individuals staying as to why a building is witchunted that day by the illegal nationalists. just this op had the balls to put it on this forum. many read this and a few have had the same but just kept quiet.

sathu pradit soi 13/15 had 5 towers raided on a sunday, and all occupants were not allowed to leave their appartments until they were given the all clear by imm that their papers/passports were in order. yes extreme but the ops is a lighter witchunt but its the same game

[Gweiloman]

"If you have done nothing wrong, you should not be concerned"
 
"It's normal, they are just trying to keep the good guys in and get the bad guys out"
 
"It's because of the bad guys that we, the good guys have to suffer"
 
will say the Thai apologists.

I am no Thai apologist but each of your 3 statements are correct.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

If you did a TM30 report yourself you would have a receipt for it. In reality it should be the owner or the management of your residence responsibility.

 

No

At the most you could be fined 2000 baht.

 

As I believe Joe has posted before, at least in Bangkok, you can mail in your TM-30 paperwork to the same CW Immigration address that's used for mailed in 90-day reports... just change the top line to "TM-30 Reporting" instead of "90 Day Reporting."

 

There's a list of various photocopies that Immigration wants for a mailed in TM-30 request, including the TM-30 application form, various passport and stamp photocopies, and if memory serves, a copy of your rental agreement and copy of your landlord's Thai ID, if possible.  There's a couple recent TM-30 threads that have the complete list.

 

[gunderhill]

4 hours ago, samsensam said:

your apartment

Its  not my apartment and I don't  live there or in Bangkok

[OKF]

TM30 has to be filed by the landlord. If the owner of the condo is a farang the farang does not need to file TM30. Just have copy/phote of passport, TM6 and chanote on your phone to show

[rak sa_ngop]

3 minutes ago, OKF said:

TM30 has to be filed by the landlord. If the owner of the condo is a farang the farang does not need to file TM30. Just have copy/phote of passport, TM6 and chanote on your phone to show

So just to be clear about this, if you are on a retirement extension and have been making your 90 day reports to Chaeng Wattana, and own your own condo, then you do not need to bother about a TM 30 (or 28)?

 

You just need to have your passport with the TM6 (departure card) and a copy/photo of your condo chanote to show Immigration?

 

Do the Immigration Officers that come to your condo know about this?

[natway09]

Unfortunately we are all governed by the lowest common denominator..

Just be pleasant & show your credentials that should be in order

[justin case]

$$$ beginning of the money, someone needs to get paid

[ThomasThBKK]

2 hours ago, rak sa_ngop said:

So just to be clear about this, if you are on a retirement extension and have been making your 90 day reports to Chaeng Wattana, and own your own condo, then you do not need to bother about a TM 30 (or 28)?

 

You just need to have your passport with the TM6 (departure card) and a copy/photo of your condo chanote to show Immigration?

 

Do the Immigration Officers that come to your condo know about this?

You have to report yourself then as they are not capable to just take the address from tm6 for whatever reason.... 

 

You are good off tho, many here have no way to reoort themselves and scummy landlords refuse to do it. 

[humbug]

if this is enforced as another thread poster today has been rejected not even a fine for an extension, then this will change the whole way foreigners stay on this land until these nationalists are released of their stranglehold.

 

foreigners renting 15k under will have more and more thai owners going no way jose, i can rent to a thai, forget renting to the farang hassle and tax etc. over 15k more thai owners wont have the same choices, as some thais can buy, outside bangkok then those amounts would be reduced, but hell for many of us trying to find a thai owner to do this 'will' become the next major hassle for many of us for 2019 if its entirely enforced. thanks illegal nationalists, thanks a lot

Edited April 5, 2019 by humbug

[Jim7777]

11 hours ago, lkv said:

"If you have done nothing wrong, you should not be concerned"

 

"It's normal, they are just trying to keep the good guys in and get the bad guys out"

 

"It's because of the bad guys that we, the good guys have to suffer"

 

will say the Thai apologists.

That’s all true but I sure am very glad that I don’t live in Bangkok or in that area.  Up here where I live the cops don’t bother anyone ever and I’ve been here for almost 5 years now.  Unless you’re out doing something seriously stupid they tend to leave you alone up here.  I’ve never had a visit from the cops ever.  

 

Although I do recall one incident about 4 years ago when I saw the cops at my neighbor’s house who’s from the UK, I think they were paying him a visit because he was seriously late on his 90 day reporting or something but he still lives there and seems to be doing okay as far as I can tell.  Well at the time I had been reading about the police checking up on foreigners a lot and I was still pretty new actually living in Thailand at the time.  So I automatically thought that it was some sort of routine check so I immediately went outside voluntarily with my passport in hand and all my Immigration paperwork, and I approached the cops and was trying to show them.  

 

Turned out that they had no intention of visiting me at all but they looked at my passport anyway because I offered voluntarily.  I thought they were checking on foreigners.  Then the cops told me that they were just there reminding my next door neighbor to stop by Immigration to report or something.  So it turned into a friendly conversation with the two cops and they seemed impressed when they asked about my background and my wife told them that I’m retired military and a little bit about me.  They actually saluted me which I guess is a common curtesy custom here even when anyone walks into the mall the guy opening the door salutes everyone.  But that was the last time I ever saw the cops visiting anyone on my street and there has never been any routine checks on foreigners around here that I know of.  Although there are only a few foreigners on my street.  

 

I’ve never had a visit we live in a house in a normal neighborhood not fancy but nice good enough for me anyway.  There’s never any crime in our neighborhood although we did have one incident a few years ago that caused me to install surveillance cameras all over my house in my front yard, outside my front gate with a view of the road outside and one camera downstairs that sees anyone entering the front door.  I had a few cameras before the incident but we had one day where someone poisoned a litter of puppies that I was talking care of and looking for homes for them.  Whoever did got away with it but with the surveillance camera system I have now including it’s infrared night vision no one would ever get away with anything like that on my street ever again unless the power goes out.  I have all points of entry into my property covered by surveillance cameras and inside by the front door downstairs and all the windows covered as well by video and I have my street outside my front gate covered by a few surveillance cameras one camera that can be easily seen and one that’s hidden.  The video cameras all feed the video to my iPhone and they record everything 24/7 to a memory card in my laptop computer.  I never called the cops about the puppies because I had no proof of who did it even though I think I know who did it but I can’t make accusations without proof and everyone else in my neighborhood has a pretty good idea who it was as well.  I know none of my neighbors would’ve ever done anything like that, we all are pretty sure it was a particular maintenance guy around here who doesn’t like all of the stray dogs.  I wish I could have caught him doing it actually he probably never would’ve done it if I had the surveillance system back then that I have now it’s also a good deterrent when most of my cameras can be seen.  My neighbors have actually told me that they appreciate the cameras because a few of them have views of our whole street which provides security for most of my neighbors as well, I just make sure that my cameras can only view the street and not inside anyone’s house or yard so that I’m not violating anyone’s privacy but no one has expressed any concern to me about that.  We also have a school on our neighborhood street as well and they also have a good video surveillance camera system including the street outside so I’m not the only one.  

 

Anyway other than that I might see the cops patrolling around my neighborhood and on my street once in a while but very rarely and whenever I do see the cops around my neighborhood they just smile and waive or just ignore me and go on about their business.  They never mess with anyone unless they are doing something blatantly stupid.  

 

One of my wife’s sisters did get a DUI once I remember because I helped bail her out of jail for 12,000 Baht but she was like passing out drunk really bad.  Although that’s a really sad story because that year my wife’s sister that sister she has 3 sisters had just lost her 20 year old daughter in a motorcycle accident.  That was also about 2 or 3 years ago.  Alcohol had nothing to do with the motorcycle accident it was just a freak occurrence my wife’s sister’s daughter was a passenger riding on the back of the motorcycle and her and the driver were both killed.  So after that my wife’s sister fell into a deep depression and started drinking heavily which was why the judge went really easy on her in court the next morning after the DUI, and it was her first offense.  Ever since that incident the whole family has really been more supportive of her and got her help and so far she’s been doing okay and no more drinking.  I wasn’t there but I assume that she probably got stopped at a police checkpoint on the highway somewhere because the cops don’t usually follow and pull anyone over around here.  In fact I’ve never seen the cops pull anyone over anywhere in Thailand except for at their checkpoints only not like they do in the United States.  

 

That’s one of the things I like particularly where I live in Thailand up in the north eastern area is the cops normally leave you alone unless you’re blatantly doing something wrong and being obvious about it.  Although I have no doubt that if I were to ever overstay my extension for example that they would eventually come looking for me because my address is properly registered with my local immigration office but obviously I’d never do that.  I always renew my extension at least 30 days early or as early as they let me do it every year.  My local immigration office here is pretty good and easy to work with as well but it’s a small immigration office and they are never really that busy.  I’ve been to the immigration office in Bangkok before and there’s a huge difference between mine and the big cities the immigration office in Bangkok is huge and always very busy, but up here in this smaller city we have a really small immigration office and whenever I visit them there are never that many people.  The busiest I’ve ever seen them they may have had 20 people in the room at the most but usually less than 10 max.  Whenever I go to report there’s never more than 5 people waiting in line.  It’s nice living in a city like I do because it’s smaller but not to small there’s still a lot to do around here but it’s no where near like Bangkok.  Although Bangkok is a nice place to visit once in a while it’s a 5 hour drive south of where I live.  

 

I don’t like to advertise where exactly I live but it’s a decent size city in the north eastern district and it really is nice here.  We live in the city but the country and rural areas are only a short trip outside the city in fact the whole city is surrounded by rural areas.  And there are also really nice lakes nearby where you can swim and just all sorts of stuff to do for a lot cheaper than Bangkok.  The cost of living is a lot cheaper up here as well from what I’ve heard, for me it’s just perfect we’re really happy here and my wife’s family lives just next door which can be helpful sometimes.  I don’t think I’d want to live anywhere else in Thailand this area is perfect especially when I read stories like this usually from the Bangkok area.  Other than the incident with the puppies we’ve never had a problem.  Although I do take security very seriously with the cameras some people might think it’s a little too much but no one could ever do anything like that ever again and get away with it unless they do it during a power outage and we don’t get very many outages.  Every once in a while maybe a few times a year a squirrel might bite a power line and sometimes we’ll get a power outage but it usually never lasts more than an hour, they’re usually pretty fast about fixing it when it does happen rarely.  And the cops around here just do their job and leave normal people alone.  

[lkv]

44 minutes ago, Jim7777 said:

That’s all true but I sure am very glad that I don’t live in Bangkok or in that area. 

Thanks for sharing the story.

 

Anyways, I prefer living downtown wherever I may live, and I prefer living in large cities, and I have not seen or heard of this type of harrasement in the downtown of many other cities in the region, ovbiously Pyongyang not included.

 

It felt more relaxing in dowtown Phnom Pehn than downtown Asok (not that I necessarily want to move to PP), but at least I did not have to watch out for the abusive Thonglor police minions and the sorts, or watch Operation X Ray Foreigner from my balcony.

Edited April 5, 2019 by lkv

[Tayaout]

37 minutes ago, Jim7777 said:

That’s all true but I sure am very glad that I don’t live in Bangkok or in that area.  Up here where I live the cops don’t bother anyone ever and I’ve been here for almost 5 years now.  Unless you’re out doing something seriously stupid they tend to leave you alone up here.  I’ve never had a visit from the cops ever.  

 

Although I do recall one incident about 4 years ago when I saw the cops at my neighbor’s house who’s from the UK, I think they were paying him a visit because he was seriously late on his 90 day reporting or something but he still lives there and seems to be doing okay as far as I can tell.  Well at the time I had been reading about the police checking up on foreigners a lot and I was still pretty new actually living in Thailand at the time.  So I automatically thought that it was some sort of routine check so I immediately went outside voluntarily with my passport in hand and all my Immigration paperwork, and I approached the cops and was trying to show them.  

 

Turned out that they had no intention of visiting me at all but they looked at my passport anyway because I offered voluntarily.  I thought they were checking on foreigners.  Then the cops told me that they were just there reminding my next door neighbor to stop by Immigration to report or something.  So it turned into a friendly conversation with the two cops and they seemed impressed when they asked about my background and my wife told them that I’m retired military and a little bit about me.  They actually saluted me which I guess is a common curtesy custom here even when anyone walks into the mall the guy opening the door salutes everyone.  But that was the last time I ever saw the cops visiting anyone on my street and there has never been any routine checks on foreigners around here that I know of.  Although there are only a few foreigners on my street.  

 

I’ve never had a visit we live in a house in a normal neighborhood not fancy but nice good enough for me anyway.  There’s never any crime in our neighborhood although we did have one incident a few years ago that caused me to install surveillance cameras all over my house in my front yard, outside my front gate with a view of the road outside and one camera downstairs that sees anyone entering the front door.  I had a few cameras before the incident but we had one day where someone poisoned a litter of puppies that I was talking care of and looking for homes for them.  Whoever did got away with it but with the surveillance camera system I have now including it’s infrared night vision no one would ever get away with anything like that on my street ever again unless the power goes out.  I have all points of entry into my property covered by surveillance cameras and inside by the front door downstairs and all the windows covered as well by video and I have my street outside my front gate covered by a few surveillance cameras one camera that can be easily seen and one that’s hidden.  The video cameras all feed the video to my iPhone and they record everything 24/7 to a memory card in my laptop computer.  I never called the cops about the puppies because I had no proof of who did it even though I think I know who did it but I can’t make accusations without proof and everyone else in my neighborhood has a pretty good idea who it was as well.  I know none of my neighbors would’ve ever done anything like that, we all are pretty sure it was a particular maintenance guy around here who doesn’t like all of the stray dogs.  I wish I could have caught him doing it actually he probably never would’ve done it if I had the surveillance system back then that I have now it’s also a good deterrent when most of my cameras can be seen.  My neighbors have actually told me that they appreciate the cameras because a few of them have views of our whole street which provides security for most of my neighbors as well, I just make sure that my cameras can only view the street and not inside anyone’s house or yard so that I’m not violating anyone’s privacy but no one has expressed any concern to me about that.  We also have a school on our neighborhood street as well and they also have a good video surveillance camera system including the street outside so I’m not the only one.  

 

Anyway other than that I might see the cops patrolling around my neighborhood and on my street once in a while but very rarely and whenever I do see the cops around my neighborhood they just smile and waive or just ignore me and go on about their business.  They never mess with anyone unless they are doing something blatantly stupid.  

 

One of my wife’s sisters did get a DUI once I remember because I helped bail her out of jail for 12,000 Baht but she was like passing out drunk really bad.  Although that’s a really sad story because that year my wife’s sister that sister she has 3 sisters had just lost her 20 year old daughter in a motorcycle accident.  That was also about 2 or 3 years ago.  Alcohol had nothing to do with the motorcycle accident it was just a freak occurrence my wife’s sister’s daughter was a passenger riding on the back of the motorcycle and her and the driver were both killed.  So after that my wife’s sister fell into a deep depression and started drinking heavily which was why the judge went really easy on her in court the next morning after the DUI, and it was her first offense.  Ever since that incident the whole family has really been more supportive of her and got her help and so far she’s been doing okay and no more drinking.  I wasn’t there but I assume that she probably got stopped at a police checkpoint on the highway somewhere because the cops don’t usually follow and pull anyone over around here.  In fact I’ve never seen the cops pull anyone over anywhere in Thailand except for at their checkpoints only not like they do in the United States.  

 

That’s one of the things I like particularly where I live in Thailand up in the north eastern area is the cops normally leave you alone unless you’re blatantly doing something wrong and being obvious about it.  Although I have no doubt that if I were to ever overstay my extension for example that they would eventually come looking for me because my address is properly registered with my local immigration office but obviously I’d never do that.  I always renew my extension at least 30 days early or as early as they let me do it every year.  My local immigration office here is pretty good and easy to work with as well but it’s a small immigration office and they are never really that busy.  I’ve been to the immigration office in Bangkok before and there’s a huge difference between mine and the big cities the immigration office in Bangkok is huge and always very busy, but up here in this smaller city we have a really small immigration office and whenever I visit them there are never that many people.  The busiest I’ve ever seen them they may have had 20 people in the room at the most but usually less than 10 max.  Whenever I go to report there’s never more than 5 people waiting in line.  It’s nice living in a city like I do because it’s smaller but not to small there’s still a lot to do around here but it’s no where near like Bangkok.  Although Bangkok is a nice place to visit once in a while it’s a 5 hour drive south of where I live.  

 

I don’t like to advertise where exactly I live but it’s a decent size city in the north eastern district and it really is nice here.  We live in the city but the country and rural areas are only a short trip outside the city in fact the whole city is surrounded by rural areas.  And there are also really nice lakes nearby where you can swim and just all sorts of stuff to do for a lot cheaper than Bangkok.  The cost of living is a lot cheaper up here as well from what I’ve heard, for me it’s just perfect we’re really happy here and my wife’s family lives just next door which can be helpful sometimes.  I don’t think I’d want to live anywhere else in Thailand this area is perfect especially when I read stories like this usually from the Bangkok area.  Other than the incident with the puppies we’ve never had a problem.  Although I do take security very seriously with the cameras some people might think it’s a little too much but no one could ever do anything like that ever again and get away with it unless they do it during a power outage and we don’t get very many outages.  Every once in a while maybe a few times a year a squirrel might bite a power line and sometimes we’ll get a power outage but it usually never lasts more than an hour, they’re usually pretty fast about fixing it when it does happen rarely.  And the cops around here just do their job and leave normal people alone.  

Nice

[Psimbo]

For those who consider these checks a 'witch hunt' I suggest you should examine why one needs to use such a word. This occurred where I lived and was completely painless. They ARE actually looking for people who are abusing the system.

 

Imm did actually find two people who were breaking the rules when they visited us (note the use of the word 'visited' not 'raid). In one case they had registered but moved on. More power to them and long may it continue.

 

To those of you that mock us for doing nothing wrong and not worrying about it maybe you should take a look in the mirror/

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, Psimbo said:

For those who consider these checks a 'witch hunt' I suggest you should examine why one needs to use such a word. This occurred where I lived and was completely painless. They ARE actually looking for people who are abusing the system.

 

Imm did actually find two people who were breaking the rules when they visited us (note the use of the word 'visited' not 'raid). In one case they had registered but moved on. More power to them and long may it continue.

 

To those of you that mock us for doing nothing wrong and not worrying about it maybe you should take a look in the mirror/

Yeah well I don't like visits. They are not my friends and I don't need new ones. So I want to lock the door. And I don't want them to "visit" me in my lobby.

 

I can't lock the door and i have to talk to them in the lobby? Then it's a raid.

Edited April 5, 2019 by lkv

[Letseng]

I wish immigration came to our place early morning. We have several "personal trainers" coming. These guys treat the gym/pool as their personal base ignoring other folks working out or swimming. Of course staff says nothing as they fear the resident may cause them a problem. I doubt that any of the guys has a work permit for the work they do. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

You have to report yourself then as they are not capable to just take the address from tm6 for whatever reason.... 

 

You are good off tho, many here have no way to reoort themselves and scummy landlords refuse to do it. 

 

In Bangkok, anyone can mail in a TM-30 filing to the same address you use for 90-day reports to the CW government complex. Just substitute TM-30 for 90 Day Reporting on the first address line.

 

Filled out TM-30 form, photocopies of your main passport page and visa and entry stamp pages, photocopy of your TM6 airport card, copy of your rental/lease agreement, and if possible, a copy of your landlord's Thai ID card.

 

If you can't get a copy of the landlord's ID card, you can try without it, just using the signed copy of your lease/rental agreement. Though I can't vouch for whether Immigration would accept that or not. If I couldn't get a copy of the ID, I'd try attaching a note in Thai to Immigration explaining that my landlord is out of pocket.

 

[Wake Up]

14 hours ago, lkv said:

"If you have done nothing wrong, you should not be concerned"

 

"It's normal, they are just trying to keep the good guys in and get the bad guys out"

 

"It's because of the bad guys that we, the good guys have to suffer"

 

will say the Thai apologists.

Similar to road blocks in America and audit of tax returns etc.....What is your point? Thais are out to harass you and expats.  Give that argument a break. Enforcement has been lacking for some time. I am glad they are finally doing their job and protecting their borders. I wish California would do the same. 

[lkv]

10 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

Similar to road blocks in America and audit of tax returns etc.....What is your point? Thais are out to harass you and expats.  Give that argument a break. Enforcement has been lacking for some time. I am glad they are finally doing their job and protecting their borders. I wish California would do the same. 

Who said I wanted to live in that police state?

 

I'm sure many Americans that came to Asia did it partly to escape the police state, only to find themselves in another one currently.

 

And yes, you are right, the same logic in my first post is being used by Americans as an excuse to infringe on liberties.

Edited April 5, 2019 by lkv