Expats in Thailand giving up and moving on

[uhuh]

6 hours ago, GrumblesMcGee said:

As someone who has spent significant time in Thailand, and is excited to be moving there soon on a multi-year contract, I can state emphatically that the bureaucracy factor looms large.

 

I laugh at claims like this:

There is data. It's not a lot of data, and you can quibble with it, but you have to recognize the difficulty of getting massive amounts of authoritative, quantitative data on this. There's no Gallup Poll of expats in Thailand. 

 

As for opinions, thoughts, and comments, they are relevant (they're also "data," by the way). If someone tells you they're leaving (or thinking about leaving) because of X, Y, or Z, you can question it all you want. It's one person's claim. When others start expressing similar sentiments, and when you get a little data that seems to back it up, maybe you should pay attention. 

Yes. And:

Exactly. You're talking about people who have made a decision to leave countries with some of the highest standards of living in the world. While some may be leaving their homelands, others are more drawn to Thailand by all the positives. 

 

When you start throwing up barriers, you reduce that draw. I haven't seen anyone in this thread questioning Thailand's prerogative to control its borders, make sure the right people can get in while the wrong ones can't, etc. But a lots of things make it more difficult for the "right people" to come/stay:

• The incessant paper-shuffling. They say the Brits are the model for the Vogons, but I haven't seen anything that rivals the Thais. It's endless with the forms, stamps, reporting, 2x2 photos...and all the waiting that goes with it. I'd probably be less annoyed if all of this happened up front--if it felt like they were being diligent in making sure only the "right people" entered the country. But it's not. It equates to harassment of people who have been invited into the country, do good work, and love the land. It's the creation of a system that always hangs over the heads of legal residents, and the (I'd argue) intentional creation of all kinds of loopholes (e.g., border runs, visa runs) that let people stay...if they put up with inconvenience. It has nothing to do with merit, or safety, or proper record-keeping. You could put together a team of tech-savvy teenagers and they could devise a streamlined, electronic process that would eliminate most of the inconvenience and the cost...but that would eliminate the jobs of the form stamper, and we can't have that, can we?
• The inconsistency. It would slightly more tolerable if the rules were always the rules. But we know they're not. A lot of that comes down to...
• The corruption. This one almost goes without saying. Can't go through the usual timely process of hoop-jumping this week? Brown envelope. That really inspires confidence that all the rules are there for the benefit of safety and order. ????
• The unpredictability. Then there's the fact that these rules just keep changing. Not necessarily because the old way was bad or the new way was better (which we can understand). And certainly not because "the people" or their representatives deliberated and decided to make a change. Nah. Whoever claims to be in charge this week just issued a decree. Deal with it.
• The nickel and diming. This is more an annoyance than a real financial barrier (although for some it can be a significant chunk of their low income/budget), with the costs of "re-entry permits" and indirect costs of border runs and visa runs and immigration office trips photos and "tea money" to facilitate the process. Reasonable people accept reasonable costs to evaluate your application to enter the country (or work, or become a resident, etc.). We get there will be a reasonable cost to process appropriate paperwork. [My country is notoriously excessive, expecting citizens of most countries to pay hundreds of dollars to apply for a mere tourist visa, then (at their expense) travel to a consulate for an interview to evaluate their worthiness.] But enough is enough. It's like that Seinfeld episode where Putty starts listing absurd fees for buying a car. Finders fee? Undercoating? Paying for a stamp to let you leave and come back? Why isn't this all computerized? Why should a farang teacher with 8 months left on their visa have to pay you extra just because they would like see their family? Just make the price the price. 

Again, I say this as someone who loves Thailand, and I think it reflects a common mindset of western farangs. We love the Thai people. We love our jobs. We chose Thailand (at least for a while) over our beloved homelands. If you decided to welcome us, then just leave us alone.

 

All your points remind me a lot of my homecountry.

[tlandtday]

This needs a new title not "giving up" but the vast majority are simply "fed up".

[swissie]

On 4/15/2019 at 12:41 PM, brokenbone said:

i'd argue the 'rich tourists' are in minority

and to top it off merely spend two week here

once in a lifetime if they do come.

odds are the large number of expats here spend more over the year

I used to live in the sticks myself and always wondered why are there no Tourists! 555

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

3rd world people moving to the west are a financial loss for the west (even if they work, they tend to send money home). The west also pays to educate their children.

Western pensioners moving to the 3rd world are a financial gain for the 3rd world (we only import foreign currency). And we pay to educate 3rd world children.

I'm sorry you don't understand the differences in economics involved, but it's an exact opposite money flow.

Its clear that you don't. Usual right-wing mush dressed up as something else. Dread to think where some of these guys claim to have studied any vaunted economics other than the voodoo variety.

[swissie]

6 hours ago, mike787 said:

That is true and false at the same time.  WHY?  Because each immigration ORfficer in each office, at each location interprets laws differently. Don't believe me!  Don't! Just read ALL the TVF threads.  Talk to the people who posted their experiences. 

Right on! A major problem on top of everything else: The individual interpretation of Immi-Laws by the many Immi-Offices and Immi-Officers. What is acceptable in Immi-Office A is not accepted in Immi-Office B. Worst: What is acceptable for Immi-Officer A is not accepted by Immi-Officer B.

This "Phenomenon" is not only limited to Immigration and not soley explainable by "corruption". It's a way of life. A local "Chieftain" is the measure of all things, since "Bangkok" is so far away.
Making it utterly impossible to establish the concept of "Legal-Certainty" nationwide.

[Muzarella]

If you have a rich Thai wife and she loves you...she will resolve your immigration troubles.... but..I know...she is poor, very beautiful... and 20 years younger.

Time to review choices if you are poor too.

[swissie]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Big Things Lost / Changed

 

Embassy letters for those nationals so unlucky TERMINATED.

 

65K method without embassy letter now requires full monthly import.

 

With embassy letters, the amount needed to import monthly or annually -- ZERO BAHT.

 

Combo method -- enforcement rules massively unclear. Some offices may not be doing them anymore AT ALL. Combo method much more COMPLICATED. Why? Because without embassy letter you also need MONTHLY IMPORT. With embassy letter, no import needed. Rules on the BANK portion must somehow conform to the new onerous seasoning rules for the full bank method adjusted for combo, but enforcement mechanics have not been communicated.

 

Full Bank Method 800K

Before seasoning 2 months first application 3 months subsequent BEFORE application.

After extension granted, can spend down completely if you wish all year, before the next seasoning method.

 

NOW -- massive changes

800K seasoning 2 months before application for all but in reality some offices are still enforcing 3 months before for subsequent applications. So in effect that is SIX entire months at 800K when previously it was 2 or 3.

After extension granted, you must no go under 800K for three months.

After that you must not go under 400K for the rest of the year before the beginning of the next pre seasoning phase.

Going under during the three months 800K seasoning results in VOIDING the annual extension. Additional consequences not announced by immigration. 

 

Conclusion: Farangs willing and able to park the 800K in a Thai Bank permanently will have little to worry about. For now, well understood.

I don't think that there is an "Expiration-Date" on the 800K deal. But likely it will be raised to 1,6 mill, just to take into account the inflation rate in Thailand over the last 20 years. Not even taking into account the unfavorable exchange rates of today, = Farang Currencies versus the Baht. An "adjustement" long overdue and could not possibly come as a big surprise to anyone.

"Grandfathering" the 800K? Very tricky. It would mean that Newcomers would have to deposit 1.6 mill (reflecting the increased cost of living in Thailand), while at the same time implying that the inflation rate over the last 20 years has not affected 20 year Farang residents. Hard to implement in this form and shape. On the surface, it would immediately create a 2 class Farang society. The "Newcomers" would have a hard time to understand why the "Old-Timers" still can get by with the old 800K (increased cost of living not having taken place for them over the last 20 years?)

Not that the powers to be would care much about such technicalites, but I am very doubtful that any "Grandfathering" would be applied.
- Much more likely, the following scenario would emerge: Long term Farangs will be given the opportunity to improve their financial situation (fulfilling the new requirements) during a period of 2 years. During those 2 years, the Farang can eighter improve his overall financial situation or he will have 2 years time to pack his suitcases.
Possible exeption: Farangs over the age of 80, having lived in Thailand without interruption for the last 346 years.

[Jingthing]

You're tripping.

First of all they won't double it.

Second of all if there is no grandfathering of the 800K, there is no way they will give two years to comply. There is no way they will give a break to the very old. That is completely contrary to the history here.

The history here is the opposite.

If not grandfathered, they will just dump the change with very short notice.

Also I know it's common gossip that they will raise it. Sure, some day, or perhaps someday they'll simply phase out retirement visas.

But I think they have ALREADY raised It without grandfathering. 

The super seasoning now required on 800K along with the total LOCKUP of 400K already represents a rather crafty raise in level. 

Cheers.

 

[sunnyboy2018]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:00 AM, Hockeybik said:

While the article does not name the study it does summarize with these numbers, "...two years ago working expats comprised 42 per cent of respondents. When asked whether they were happier than when they first arrived, some 39 per cent said no, with 44 per cent of the negative responses coming from expats aged under 60 years. The majority quoted financial pressures as the reason for their discomfort, with 66 per cent of all respondents saying they’d thought seriously about moving on. The recent survey shows just 23 per cent are working expats, indicating a majority of expat professionals thinking about leaving have now left." 

 

There may be many flaws in how this data was collected and in the conclusions reached but I stand by the "perception is reality" view. If the news is bad, then it IS bad. Regular TV posters for the most part seem to be on the fully legal side of Thai immigration and do not feel pressures as much or react as much to "news" but, anyone thinking about coming to work or live, may react quite oppositely. 

If fully legal means using a agent...then yeah..you are right..if fully legal mean military coup then they are right too..

[Spidey]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:42 AM, robertson468 said:

The biggest problems are:  Some have not been complying with the Law and have now been found out and are not happy.  Their fault, not Thai fault.

No surprise to me that the recent spate of "I'm sick of Thailand and it's immigration rules, I'm off" threads are primarily started by US citizens. I wonder why?

[Spidey]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're tripping.

First of all they won't double it.

Second of all if there is no grandfathering of the 800K, there is no way they will give two years to comply. There is no way they will give a break to the very old. That is completely contrary to the history here.

The history here is the opposite.

If not grandfathered, they will just dump the change with very short notice.

Also I know it's common gossip that they will raise it. Sure, some day, or perhaps someday they'll simply phase out retirement visas.

But I think they have ALREADY raised It without grandfathering. 

The super seasoning now required on 800K along with the total LOCKUP of 400K already represents a rather crafty raise in level. 

Cheers.

 

"Also I know it's common gossip that they will raise it. Sure, some day, or perhaps someday they'll simply phase out retirement visas." It's been common gossip for many years. Absolutely no basis on facts.

 

"But I think they have ALREADY raised It without grandfathering. 

The super seasoning now required on 800K along with the total LOCKUP of 400K already represents a rather crafty raise in level." More scaremongering nonsense.

 

I have experienced zero change in my financial requirements to obtain a retirement visa extension. 

[malibukid]

On 4/22/2019 at 12:45 AM, swissie said:

Right on! A major problem on top of everything else: The individual interpretation of Immi-Laws by the many Immi-Offices and Immi-Officers. What is acceptable in Immi-Office A is not accepted in Immi-Office B. Worst: What is acceptable for Immi-Officer A is not accepted by Immi-Officer B.

This "Phenomenon" is not only limited to Immigration and not soley explainable by "corruption". It's a way of life. A local "Chieftain" is the measure of all things, since "Bangkok" is so far away.
Making it utterly impossible to establish the concept of "Legal-Certainty" nationwide.

no one is on the same page.  nothing written in stone here

[malibukid]

On 4/22/2019 at 1:47 AM, Spidey said:

"Also I know it's common gossip that they will raise it. Sure, some day, or perhaps someday they'll simply phase out retirement visas." It's been common gossip for many years. Absolutely no basis on facts.

 

"But I think they have ALREADY raised It without grandfathering. 

The super seasoning now required on 800K along with the total LOCKUP of 400K already represents a rather crafty raise in level." More scaremongering nonsense.

 

I have experienced zero change in my financial requirements to obtain a retirement visa extension. 

the U.S. consulate could have simply changed to verifying income affidavits.  this would have satisfied TI, not.

[malibukid]

On 4/22/2019 at 1:41 AM, Spidey said:

No surprise to me that the recent spate of "I'm sick of Thailand and it's immigration rules, I'm off" threads are primarily started by US citizens. I wonder why?

it's the fact that Thailands immigration laws seem to be subject to personal interpretation and the whims of the IO

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, malibukid said:

it's the fact that Thailands immigration laws seem to be subject to personal interpretation and the whims of the IO

Same for the rest of us. Doesn't explain why it's primarily US citizens that are whinging and moving on.

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, malibukid said:

the U.S. consulate could have simply changed to verifying income affidavits.  this would have satisfied TI, not.

Again, same for the rest of us.

[hansnl]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:30 AM, ubonjoe said:

Moved to here.

May I advise others to have, for example in YouTube, a view/lookup in what is happening with expats in China.

See that as an example, being mostly of Chinese extraction, how authorities are dealing with expats.

The difference is that China don't need the expats, expats in Thailand bring in quite a lot of foreign funds.

[hansnl]

On 4/14/2019 at 11:11 AM, mania said:

Not a chance

 

As much as Foreigners from the West & Europe like to think they matter they don't matter much in

the overall scheme of things in Thailand ( Rich tourist yes...long term shoestring expats no)

 

If his move had anything to do with immigration at all it was with the weakening of the cheap labor force.

If it was something about his roundups of thousands it was his higher ups were maybe losing their cheap labor/factory workers.

 

But to be honest I do not think Big Jokes move was immigration motivated at all.

 

He made the mistake of saying there was some suspicious voter activity/ possible hacking & it was worth looking into.

That was that & I have not seen a peep about it (voter hacking) since....not even able to find the original blurb

 

 

Long time "shoestring" expats spend, on average, 50,000 baht a month in the local economy.

Multiply this with the number of expats and it isn't peanuts, but rather hefty in the overall scheme of things.

A former provincial governor told in a speech that for every expat there are, at least, 1.4 Thai jobs.

Again, multiplied with the number of expats, quite a hefty impact.

That is exactly the reason the Phillipines like expats and makes it rather easy to go there to live.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, hansnl said:

May I advise others to have, for example in YouTube, a view/lookup in what is happening with expats in China.

See that as an example, being mostly of Chinese extraction, how authorities are dealing with expats.

The difference is that China don't need the expats, expats in Thailand bring in quite a lot of foreign funds.

Thailand doesn’t need expats either. Yes they bring in money, but it’s insignificant in the grand scheme. They are far more interested in the the money brought in by tourists that spend and go home.

[Fex Bluse]

On 4/25/2019 at 9:00 AM, hansnl said:

May I advise others to have, for example in YouTube, a view/lookup in what is happening with expats in China.

See that as an example, being mostly of Chinese extraction, how authorities are dealing with expats.

The difference is that China don't need the expats, expats in Thailand bring in quite a lot of foreign funds.

This is correct. 

 

The Chinese don't really need the expats in China because they have (very brilliantly) designed a complex strategy of theft and other means of catching up economically. 

 

Many Thais have the same xenophobic attitude but are unfortunately not so clever and can't really advance without foreign help (from Asia, Europe or America).

[cbc]

The last time I was in Bangkok (December 2018 to February 2019 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cbc]

My last trip to Bangkok which was December 2018 to February 2019 and having walked around the city seems to me Japanese are becoming the more favourite tourist and expat now.Thong lor and surpriseingly soi 23 many Japanese restaurants and even food stalls catering to them now.

[Destiny1990]

38 minutes ago, cbc said:

My last trip to Bangkok which was December 2018 to February 2019 and having walked around the city seems to me Japanese are becoming the more favourite tourist and expat now.Thong lor and surpriseingly soi 23 many Japanese restaurants and even food stalls catering to them now.

I know a Soi in Bangkok full with Middle Eastern Muslims.

[Starman88]

Yep, I am nearly done with this lunatic asylum. 
Going home soon.

[onera1961]

Bangkok needs more expats from India and China to usher into a new era. 

[ThomasThBKK]

On 5/15/2019 at 3:27 AM, cbc said:

My last trip to Bangkok which was December 2018 to February 2019 and having walked around the city seems to me Japanese are becoming the more favourite tourist and expat now.Thong lor and surpriseingly soi 23 many Japanese restaurants and even food stalls catering to them now.

 

What? This area was always japanase, there's jvillage and kvillage... they work here but they are getting less, my japanese neighbours are also complaining over the same stuff we complain about from ecigs to immigration to prices. 

There's a reason Bangkok is one of the best places for sushi outside of japan ???? Good folks to be surrounded by, very polite but still decent drinkers and fun people.

[utalkin2me]

One of the things I often see get brought up is the supposedly horrendous effect foreigners leaving will have on the economy.

 

One of the things I NEVER see get brought up is how many times I see THAIS almost exclusively supporting the tourist areas. 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but there is more to Thailand than Pattaya, Soi Cowboy and Nana. Go to a semi nice beach somewhere  south of Bangkok, one that does not start with a "P", and see loads of Thais eating, buying, staying in hotels etc. 

 

If you want the concise version, Thailand probably does not need us nearly as much as we tend to think. 

[ThomasThBKK]

37 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

One of the things I often see get brought up is the supposedly horrendous effect foreigners leaving will have on the economy.

 

One of the things I NEVER see get brought up is how many times I see THAIS almost exclusively supporting the tourist areas. 

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but there is more to Thailand than Pattaya, Soi Cowboy and Nana. Go to a semi nice beach somewhere  south of Bangkok, one that does not start with a "P", and see loads of Thais eating, buying, staying in hotels etc. 

 

If you want the concise version, Thailand probably does not need us nearly as much as we tend to think. 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/international-business/en/Thailand/IndustryBusiness/Pages/201901_Thailand_TourismOutlook19.aspx 

 

Quote

 Hence, in 2018, Thailand received approximately THB 2.01 trillion in revenue from the arrival of international tourists.

 

 

Guess, that's a lot of money ...

[lagavulin1]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:52 AM, Hockeybik said:

I agree with you, not much really changed but you must remember that perception is reality. The news and the "perception" lately has been one of "it's way worse than it was" and "it effects everyone". There is no denying that obtaining retirement visas did take an uptick in difficulty with stricter enforcement of proof of finances. 

On your perception two points, the worsening if any seems to me to be due to the short timers and long timers who bend the laws. Many people have said that.

Secondly if you overlay Thailand today with  the current Immigration fiascos in UK, EU, US and OZ I feel rather relaxed. 

[Isaanbiker]

Many expats had to leave when the embassy letter wasn't an option anymore because they could state any amounts of income which they didn't have.

 

Please let's be fair, which country, except Germany treats all citizens without asking too many questions for free, with, or without a passport?

 

  Thailand's change of laws was always because some people did something against the law and regulations, see tourist visa misuse, and more.