Do you believe in God and why

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

The current war in Ukraine doesn't seem at all intelligent to me, nor the countless bloody wars in the past, involving terrible killing and rape of huge numbers of innocent women and children.

There is a chain reaction from a dysfunctional country run by a paranoid dictator, and quite normal and we'll documented where lack of responsibility of leaders is addressed. Only those who can not disobey risk the consequences. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

The current war in Ukraine doesn't seem at all intelligent to me, nor the countless bloody wars in the past, involving terrible killing and rape of huge numbers of innocent women and children.

I was expecting a similar counter-argument, but it's lame, and I'm sure that you know. 

Yeah, evil exists in this existence, and so what.

When you talk about the great benefits which science brings to humankind,  you never mention the science of propaganda, the science of weapons production, the science of bombing and destroying, now suddenly you use the atrocities of war to say that "humans are not so intelligent "

Well, i have to tell you, nature is violent, with or without humans... but we have the potential to make things better, with some effort. 

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I was expecting a similar counter-argument, but it's lame, and I'm sure that you know. 

Yeah, evil exists in this existence, and so what.

When you talk about the great benefits which science brings to humankind,  you never mention the science of propaganda, the science of weapons production, the science of bombing and destroying, now suddenly you use the atrocities of war to say that "humans are not so intelligent "

Well, i have to tell you, nature is violent, with or without humans... but we have the potential to make things better, with some effort. 

Rape is a weapon, and maybe the very first psychological  destructive weapon used. 
 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/rape-crime/Rape-as-a-weapon-of-war

 

Crippling your enemy is better than killing them and create fear as well bind up resources to care for them. 

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Rape is a weapon, and maybe the very first psychological  destructive weapon used. 
 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/rape-crime/Rape-as-a-weapon-of-war

 

Crippling your enemy is better than killing them and create fear as well bind up resources to care for them. 

True, the cluster bombs and the land mines, scientifically studied not to kill, but maim and cripple innocent peasants and their children are another example. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by mauGR1

[Hummin]

10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

True, the cluster bombs and the land mines, scientifically studied not to kill, but maim and cripple innocent peasants and their children are another example. 

So we can say there is some kind of intelligence behind the use of it. Cruel but it works. 

[mauGR1]

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

So we can say there is some kind of intelligence behind the use of it. Cruel but it works. 

Sure, but intelligence without compassion is a poor thing. 

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Maybe the big bang ????

Have proven The Big Bang over and over again.

Last night for example! ????

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

Have proven The Big Bang over and over again.

Last night for example! ????

Are you losing the plot ? Too much wine ?????

[TropicalGuy]

3 hours ago, Hummin said:

You certainly know your history. 
 

This should please even a non believing man?

 

Yin and Yang. / (jɪn) / noun. two complementary principles of Chinese philosophy: Yin is negative, dark, and feminine, Yang positive, bright, and masculine. Their interaction is thought to maintain the harmony of the universe and to influence everything within it.

True certainly that everything has its scientific opposite in this universe. Male & Female are their own opposites. Not allocated to Good or Bad as Both can be Both.
 

Earth apart, Universe appears vast cold dark lifeless, ruled by physics & chemistry, elemental & certainly NOT male/ female. 

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

I was expecting a similar counter-argument, but it's lame, and I'm sure that you know. 

Yeah, evil exists in this existence, and so what.

When you talk about the great benefits which science brings to humankind,  you never mention the science of propaganda, the science of weapons production, the science of bombing and destroying, now suddenly you use the atrocities of war to say that "humans are not so intelligent "

Well, i have to tell you, nature is violent, with or without humans... but we have the potential to make things better, with some effort. 

"Yeah, evil exists in this existence, and so what." 

 

So what ??? Is it of no consequence?? I do understand that all forms of life tend to kill other forms of life, and often kill members of their own species during a competition for resources and food, and/or for the expansion of their territory. Certain species of female spiders, for example, will even eat the male spider after copulation has occurred, presumably to provide food for the developing baby spiders.

 

However, I find it very difficult to explain such behaviour by suggesting we were created by an Intelligent Designer. A more sensible explanation is that such conflicts are due to certain characteristics which are embedded in all forms of life, including bacteria, that is, an instinct that gives priority to the passing on of its own genes, in other words, its reproduction.

 

The Theory of Evolution is a far better explanation than a God or Intelligent Designer. We know that genes mutate and that such mutations can affect the ability of life-forms to survive in a particular environment. Mutations which are beneficial for survival in a particular environment, will result in greater reproduction, which is 'survival of the fittest'. After millions of generations, perhaps during a billion years, is it any wonder that a creature will very gradually morph into another creature, or species, as a result of the trillions of genetic mutations that have occurred during a few million, or a billion years?

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

True certainly that everything has its scientific opposite in this universe. Male & Female are their own opposites. Not allocated to Good or Bad as Both can be Both.
 

Earth apart, Universe appears vast cold dark lifeless, ruled by physics & chemistry, elemental & certainly NOT male/ female. 

You understand one can be both, what it is called is not important.

 

Be it god, nature, power, energy

[TropicalGuy]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Ok, whatever you want to believe. 

There simply is no example where Religion has advanced Civilization. 
It is also clearly anti- progress. Therefore logical to conclude rationally ( not “ believe” that’s Faith again) that it has not. 

[Sunmaster]

29 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

There simply is no example where Religion has advanced Civilization. 
It is also clearly anti- progress. Therefore logical to conclude rationally ( not “ believe” that’s Faith again) that it has not. 

False.

 

Organized religions were paramount in developing societies away from tribal warfare into more structured entities, thus offering fertile ground for important achievements such as law and order. Let's not forget that at that time the Christian Church for example was the repository of all knowledge of the physical and non physical world, promoted the writing, translating and copying of all sorts of books. The science of the time was mainly done by monks, who were among the few to be literate. 

It's true that once that science progressed and tried to free itself from the shackles of religious dogma, the Church could not deal with that and reacted in the most vicious ways possible. 

But to say that organized religion has not advanced society is simply wrong. A quick google search would have easily shown you that. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

Are you losing the plot ? Too much wine ?????

Not enough wine? Twas a joke. That said...plot on this thread was lost LONG ago????

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Organized religions were paramount in developing societies away from tribal warfare into more structured entities, thus offering fertile ground for important achievements such as law and order.

......which was often enforced with horrible punishments, such as burning the law-breakers alive at the stake, or nailing them to a cross, as the Romans used to do, and organizing horrible wars which resulted in the slaughter of almost entire populations.

[Sunmaster]

53 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

......which was often enforced with horrible punishments, such as burning the law-breakers alive at the stake, or nailing them to a cross, as the Romans used to do, and organizing horrible wars which resulted in the slaughter of almost entire populations.

....which is exactly what I already said in my last post....so why repeat it? ????

 

In any case, like I already described in another post, every stage in human and social development has its healthy and unhealthy manifestations. 

That's the case for Blue (organized religion) as well as the next in line, Orange (materialism). You can't just highlight the unhealthy ones and conveniently forget or deny the healthy ones. Well, you can...if you're ignorant of the facts or dishonest. (Not you personally) 

 

It would be very hypocritical for someone at orange to point the accusing finger at blue, when they have plenty to worry about their own stage's health (belief system).

Edited May 27, 2022 by Sunmaster

[VincentRJ]

6 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

...which is exactly what I already said in my last post....so why repeat it? ????

Because this issue is so fundamentally important to, not only our current well-being, but the survival of the human race. It needs to be repeated again and again. The reasons why we don't seem to be able to learn from history, needs to be given more attention. This is something that should be investigated more by the scientific disciplines, and/or discussed more in the media, world-wide.

 

In other words, there appears to be something in human nature that transcends any religious doctrine.

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

However, I find it very difficult to explain such behaviour by suggesting we were created by an Intelligent Designer. A more sensible explanation is that such conflicts are due to certain characteristics which are embedded in all forms of life, including bacteria, that is, an instinct that gives priority to the passing on of its own genes, in other words, its reproduction.

 

One of the reasons why it's so difficult for you to accept different hypotheses, is because, sorry to say, you've been well indoctrinated. 

Evolution of the species and intelligent design theories are not necessarily in conflict. 

Although some parts of the evolution theory are just ludicrous, the ability of sentient beings to adapt to different conditions, is undoubtedly intelligent design at work.

As for the crimes committed in the name of religion, nobody denies that, but, as far as i know, it wasn't the Pope who bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in case you don't know, millions in recent times have been bombed in the name of democracy and freedom, but i never heard you blame democracy and freedom. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

One of the reasons why it's so difficult for you to accept different hypotheses, is because, sorry to say, you've been well indoctrinated. 

Evolution of the species and intelligent design theories are not necessarily in conflict. 

Although some parts of the evolution theory are just ludicrous, the ability of sentient beings to adapt to different conditions, is undoubtedly intelligent design at work.

As for the crimes committed in the name of religion, nobody denies that, but, as far as i know, it wasn't the Pope who bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in case you don't know, millions in recent times have been bombed in the name of democracy and freedom, but i never heard you blame democracy and freedom. 

A brief reading of Darwin's theory of evolution will show that intelligent deign and the theory of evolution are the antithesis of each other. Evolution has to be random to work.

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

A brief reading of Darwin's theory of evolution will show that intelligent deign and the theory of evolution are the antithesis of each other. Evolution has to be random to work.

Although Darwin got something right here and there, and he was considered a genius in his age, he's not an authority anymore. Nothing is random, except what you can't understand ????

[mauGR1]

For the scientific zealots out there:

 

"A man who finds everything comprehensible may, of course, see no need to know anything of more deeply lying causes. But to find everything in the world comprehensible is a sign of illusion and merely indicates superficiality. In point of fact the vast majority of things in the world are incomprehensible to the ordinary consciousness. To be able to stand in wonder before so much that is incomprehensible in everyday life — that is really the beginning of a true striving for knowledge."
Rudolf Steiner 
 

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Because this issue is so fundamentally important to, not only our current well-being, but the survival of the human race. It needs to be repeated again and again. The reasons why we don't seem to be able to learn from history, needs to be given more attention. This is something that should be investigated more by the scientific disciplines, and/or discussed more in the media, world-wide.

 

In other words, there appears to be something in human nature that transcends any religious doctrine.

I agree, as long as the finger pointing is not done out of a sense of superiority of your own belief system/stage of evolution and has enough integrity and intellectual honesty to also be directed to the stage you're currently in.

In other words, if you're a materialist, it's easy to look at history and to blame organized religion for the atrocities it committed in God's name. Is it equally easy to look at the materialist worldview and see the damage caused by it? Not so much. To do that, you would have to transcend to the next stage and gain a clearer perspective of what came before. 
And while we're pointing all those fingers at the things that are not going the way they should go, or the way we wish they would go, can we see all the good that came out of each stage? Blaming alone will not make one bit of difference. Action is needed.

 

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

In other words, there appears to be something in human nature that transcends any religious doctrine.

Absolutely. Religious doctrine is just the finger pointing at the moon, not the moon itself. 

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Although Darwin got something right here and there, and he was considered a genius in his age, he's not an authority anymore. Nothing is random, except what you can't understand ????

He's not considered anything other than the author of the currently accepted theory of evolution as taught in all schools. If you have evidence to the contrary from credible sources post them or admit your religious bias.

[ozimoron]

12 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

For the scientific zealots out there:

 

"A man who finds everything comprehensible may, of course, see no need to know anything of more deeply lying causes. But to find everything in the world comprehensible is a sign of illusion and merely indicates superficiality. In point of fact the vast majority of things in the world are incomprehensible to the ordinary consciousness. To be able to stand in wonder before so much that is incomprehensible in everyday life — that is really the beginning of a true striving for knowledge."
Rudolf Steiner 
 

There is reality and the inability to comprehend reality. Science is reality however undiscovered its secrets may be. Denial of science is a failure of critical thinking.

[VincentRJ]

44 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

One of the reasons why it's so difficult for you to accept different hypotheses, is because, sorry to say, you've been well indoctrinated. 

Wow! Please tell me how you think I've been indoctrinated. I'd really like to know because I'm generally opposed to doctrines in general.

 

For example, I initially accepted the doctrine of 'potential catastrophic climate change due to human Co2 emissions', because I have respect for the methodology of science. However, after doing my own investigation, searching the internet for the history of past changes in climate, and the history of extreme weather events, from reliable sources, it became clear that the alarm about human-caused climate change and its existential threat, was far more political than scientific.

 

Definition of doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, VincentRJ said:

Wow! Please tell me how you think I've been indoctrinated. I'd really like to know because I'm generally opposed to doctrines in general.

 

For example, I initially accepted the doctrine of 'potential catastrophic climate change due to human Co2 emissions', because I have respect for the methodology of science. However, after doing my own investigation, searching the internet for the history of past changes in climate, and the history of extreme weather events, from reliable sources, it became clear that the alarm about human-caused climate change and its existential threat, was far more political than scientific.

 

Definition of doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
 

You didn't do enough research.

[mauGR1]

18 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Denial of science is a failure of critical thinking.

You might be surprised, but we fully agree here.

For this and other reasons i have to question your reading abilities. 

Sorry to be blunt, but my impression is that you and others don't even know what we're talking about. 

I cannot explain to you, because i know that you won't listen.

So let's agree to disagree. ????

[VincentRJ]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You didn't do enough research.

How do you know that I didn't do enough research? ????

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Wow! Please tell me how you think I've been indoctrinated. I'd really like to know because I'm generally opposed to doctrines in general.

I'm telling you since some 3 years.

You don't listen because you think that you know  better. 

I accept that, most people think that " they know better " ????

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

How do you know that I didn't do enough research? ????

Because you arrived at a conclusion which is at odds with virtually all climate scientists.