Do you believe in God and why

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/1/2022 at 7:10 PM, Hummin said:

In terms of change? Is change necessary if you feel you live a good life, with an healthy outlook on it, I believe a change only is necessary  if something happens to you and to your life. I believe there must be a cause for a change, because you need the change out of various reasons of course. 

Define "change". IMO if one does not change, according to all the new experiences one has, one is no more than a sheep or a cow that has no desire beyond eating.

 

I have "changed" more times than I can remember in my life, sometimes willingly, others because I had to. Such events as travel, marriage, illness all produce change in us regardless of our desire to not do so.

 

I have a neighbor that does nothing but sit in the sun smoking, or chatting occasionally. While I doubt he has my problems, I wouldn't swap places with him, even if I could. Us oldies can experience life more than just waiting for the end.

[Hummin]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Define "change". IMO if one does not change, according to all the new experiences one has, one is no more than a sheep or a cow that has no desire beyond eating.

 

I have "changed" more times than I can remember in my life, sometimes willingly, others because I had to. Such events as travel, marriage, illness all produce change in us regardless of our desire to not do so.

 

I have a neighbor that does nothing but sit in the sun smoking, or chatting occasionally. While I doubt he has my problems, I wouldn't swap places with him, even if I could. Us oldies can experience life more than just waiting for the end.

A change in life philosophy/belief/religion, the truth and also lifestyle behavior or approach to life regarding your belief. 
 

One bad but quite normal behavior is to cultivate the negative past, and our daily problems, blaming everyone else for where we are in life instead of accept, forgive and move on. 
 

Trapped in past physically and mentally is heavy chains to carry sometimes. 
 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

31 minutes ago, Hummin said:

A change in life philosophy/belief/religion, the truth and also lifestyle behavior or approach to life regarding your belief. 
 

One bad but quite normal behavior is to cultivate the negative past, and our daily problems, blaming everyone else for where we are in life instead of accept, forgive and move on. 
 

Trapped in past physically and mentally is heavy chains to carry sometimes. 
 

 

I know what you are saying, but sometimes due to ill health, lack of money etc one has no decent present and no hope of better to come. Sometimes the past is all one has to keep living.

I blame no one else for my problems which were caused by my own stupidity in trusting the wrong people.

[mauGR1]

22 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I know what you are saying, but sometimes due to ill health, lack of money etc one has no decent present and no hope of better to come. Sometimes the past is all one has to keep living.

I blame no one else for my problems which were caused by my own stupidity in trusting the wrong people.

When we identify only with our physical body, there's not much to be happy, but much to be sad.

Even if we're happy to be rich, healthy and charming, which surely isn't my case btw, we are going to lose everything anyway. 

Nobody gets out of here alive, the physical body soon or later deteriorates. 

Yet, there's hope, if we see this experience as a learning path, and once the physical experience is over, we still have a very light, but precious treasure of spiritual experience, which is all one truly possesses.

 

[Hummin]

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I know what you are saying, but sometimes due to ill health, lack of money etc one has no decent present and no hope of better to come. Sometimes the past is all one has to keep living.

I blame no one else for my problems which were caused by my own stupidity in trusting the wrong people.

I also know what you are saying and  It is a good start to appreciate the very right her right now moment even the smallest things in your life.
 

It is a good mental exercise, even its a cup of coffe in the morning, a fruit, a flower, enjoy the sunrise as sunset just to start training and forming your brain, and create some positivity. I have been there, same as you, and had to take a grip on my life step by step, and it works. 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I also know what you are saying and  It is a good start to appreciate the very right her right now moment even the smallest things in your life.
 

It is a good mental exercise, even its a cup of coffe in the morning, a fruit, a flower, enjoy the sunrise as sunset just to start training and forming your brain, and create some positivity. I have been there, same as you, and had to take a grip on my life step by step, and it works. 

I do love a good sunset.

This morning I was up before dawn and the sunrise was spectacular.

 

One makes the best of what one has, but one also needs hope and a purpose in life to be fulfilled.

It's hard to be positive on the scrapheap of society.

I do not fear death, rather I fear living too long.

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

do not fear death, rather I fear living too long.

Lol, same here.

It's a good thing not to be afraid of anything, but looking at how society is developing in the so called civilized countries, one can feel really scared.

I pity the children growing up in these days.

Anyway, i think humming is right about training the brain, and you are right at enjoying the sunset. I try to do the same every day, filling my soul with art and natural beauty.

It sure helps thinking positive, and be grateful for the little we have, instead complaining for what we have lost.

[thaibeachlovers]

30 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I pity the children growing up in these days.

As do many that have children that I talk to.

At least I did one thing right in my life and did not bring a child into this world we live in.

[Hummin]

46 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Lol, same here.

It's a good thing not to be afraid of anything, but looking at how society is developing in the so called civilized countries, one can feel really scared.

I pity the children growing up in these days.

Anyway, i think humming is right about training the brain, and you are right at enjoying the sunset. I try to do the same every day, filling my soul with art and natural beauty.

It sure helps thinking positive, and be grateful for the little we have, instead complaining for what we have lost.

I agree with the fear of living to long, and therefor try to make the best out of it as long as possible while I can. 
 

The best thing I have learned, is to breathe, stop, and enjoy being bored. Being bored is a luxery problem when you finely manage to stop the racing thoughts and can allow yourself to just sit and be, be in the moment and do nothing. 
 

 

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I agree with the fear of living to long, and therefor try to make the best out of it as long as possible while I can. 
 

The best thing I have learned, is to breathe, stop, and enjoy being bored. Being bored is a luxery problem when you finely manage to stop the racing thoughts and can allow yourself to just sit and be, be in the moment and do nothing. 
 

 

Lol, yep, on this we perfectly agree.

While i don't think it's ok being bored all the time, a little boredom here and there is never wasted. 

There's some wisdom in accepting boredom as an important part of life.

 

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Lol, yep, on this we perfectly agree.

While i don't think it's ok being bored all the time, a little boredom here and there is never wasted. 

There's some wisdom in accepting boredom as an important part of life.

 

Boredom stimulate creativity, so no problem with being bored.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

Boredom stimulate creativity, so no problem with being bored.

 

I haven't been bored since I retired. Too much to do.

[AsianAtHeart]

If we consider some of the reasons that people do NOT believe in God, we find that they are based on inaccuracies and myths that have been propagated by society.  Perhaps it is a bit like "fake news."  Many of those who believe in God have, unwittingly, become the source of these myths, by not taking time to study the Bible carefully and to see what it really says.  They have jumped to conclusions.  Some, perhaps, have thought that by exaggerating the facts, people would be more driven to seek God.

 

But error is never harmless.  Any inaccuracy in teaching or understanding the truth can have devastating consequences.

 

In this post, I will tackle just ONE of the many myths that have caused people to give up their belief in God: eternal hell.

 

Most Christians today have the wrong idea on this subject.  I've seen some of its effects on display in posts made in this thread.  So let's look at what the Bible actually teaches.

 

Q: Is hell fire forever?

 

A: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

 

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

 

Yes.  The fire is called "everlasting" and "eternal" in the Bible.

 

Q: Will sinners burn forever?

 

A:  "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

 

Unforgiven sinners must die, not live forever in flames.  The forgiven receive eternal life as a gift.

 

Q: What about this text: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)?

 

A: The word "smoke" is important here.  Smoke only comes from something that has already burned and is now gone.  When nothing remains but smoke, there are no flames--and, indeed, this text does not mention flames.  That the smoke ascends "for ever and ever" indicates that the punishment will never be reversed: it is final.  There is more to this text, but it goes beyond the scope of this post.

 

Q: If sinners do not burn forever, why is the fire eternal?

 

A: The fire is God.  See these texts below.

 

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24)

 

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

 

Those familiar with the Bible will know that God has appeared as a fire in multiple accounts.  We think of the burning bush which Moses saw in the wilderness, the pillar of fire by night by which God led His people through the wilderness, the flames that descended over the apostles' heads at Pentecost, and more.  And, because God is a fire, and God is eternal, the fire of God's presence is also eternal.

 

Q: If God is a fire, will not the righteous be living in fire in heaven?

 

A:  Yes!  Consider these texts.

 

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;" (Isaiah 33:14-15; cf. Psalm 15)

 

"When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." (Isaiah 43:2)

 

The righteous will be able to live in the fire without harm.  A Biblical parallel is seen in the story of Daniel's three friends who were thrown into the fiery furnace, and were seen walking with a fourth person whom the king likened to the Son of God.  Only the ropes that had bound them burned, and their clothing, when they finally came out, did not even have the smell of smoke, nor was their hair at all singed.

 

* * * * * * * * *

Conclusion

 

Hellfire lasts forever.  Its punishment is irreversible.  But no sinner will be tormented forever.  The conclusion that many atheists make, based upon the false teaching of eternal hell, that there cannot be a loving God because no God would do such a thing is based on a true conclusion--for it is absolutely certain that a God of love would not delight in the torture of the lost for eternity.  However, it is not God who deserves to be rejected in this case, but rather the false teaching.  It is a teaching that has harmed millions, and still it is taught by many today.

[Hummin]

22 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

If we consider some of the reasons that people do NOT believe in God, we find that they are based on inaccuracies and myths that have been propagated by society.  Perhaps it is a bit like "fake news."  Many of those who believe in God have, unwittingly, become the source of these myths, by not taking time to study the Bible carefully and to see what it really says.  They have jumped to conclusions.  Some, perhaps, have thought that by exaggerating the facts, people would be more driven to seek God.

 

But error is never harmless.  Any inaccuracy in teaching or understanding the truth can have devastating consequences.

 

In this post, I will tackle just ONE of the many myths that have caused people to give up their belief in God: eternal hell.

 

Most Christians today have the wrong idea on this subject.  I've seen some of its effects on display in posts made in this thread.  So let's look at what the Bible actually teaches.

 

Q: Is hell fire forever?

 

A: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

 

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

 

Yes.  The fire is called "everlasting" and "eternal" in the Bible.

 

Q: Will sinners burn forever?

 

A:  "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

 

Unforgiven sinners must die, not live forever in flames.  The forgiven receive eternal life as a gift.

 

Q: What about this text: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)?

 

A: The word "smoke" is important here.  Smoke only comes from something that has already burned and is now gone.  When nothing remains but smoke, there are no flames--and, indeed, this text does not mention flames.  That the smoke ascends "for ever and ever" indicates that the punishment will never be reversed: it is final.  There is more to this text, but it goes beyond the scope of this post.

 

Q: If sinners do not burn forever, why is the fire eternal?

 

A: The fire is God.  See these texts below.

 

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." (Deuteronomy 4:24)

 

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

 

Those familiar with the Bible will know that God has appeared as a fire in multiple accounts.  We think of the burning bush which Moses saw in the wilderness, the pillar of fire by night by which God led His people through the wilderness, the flames that descended over the apostles' heads at Pentecost, and more.  And, because God is a fire, and God is eternal, the fire of God's presence is also eternal.

 

Q: If God is a fire, will not the righteous be living in fire in heaven?

 

A:  Yes!  Consider these texts.

 

"The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;" (Isaiah 33:14-15; cf. Psalm 15)

 

"When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." (Isaiah 43:2)

 

The righteous will be able to live in the fire without harm.  A Biblical parallel is seen in the story of Daniel's three friends who were thrown into the fiery furnace, and were seen walking with a fourth person whom the king likened to the Son of God.  Only the ropes that had bound them burned, and their clothing, when they finally came out, did not even have the smell of smoke, nor was their hair at all singed.

 

* * * * * * * * *

Conclusion

 

Hellfire lasts forever.  Its punishment is irreversible.  But no sinner will be tormented forever.  The conclusion that many atheists make, based upon the false teaching of eternal hell, that there cannot be a loving God because no God would do such a thing is based on a true conclusion--for it is absolutely certain that a God of love would not delight in the torture of the lost for eternity.  However, it is not God who deserves to be rejected in this case, but rather the false teaching.  It is a teaching that has harmed millions, and still it is taught by many today

I have read the bible, and do not see the bible as the truth about god! I see it as a family saga claiming land and titles for their tribes. A book of laws and guidelines to be followed for future succes. 
 

 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

I have read the bible, and do not see the bible as the truth about god! I see it as a family saga claiming land and titles for their tribes. A book of laws and guidelines to be followed for future succes. 
 

How long ago did you read it? 

 

I find that every time I read the Bible, I seem to understand new things that I had never noticed before.  Especially is this true when I have neglected to read it for awhile. 

 

It is a law of the human mind, however, that people tend to see what they look for and expect.  If you do not expect to find God as you read, you may not find Him.  If you really want to find God, I would humbly suggest you take another look, and read it "with new eyes" as it were, to see what you might find.  There are many blessings in God's Word beyond simply a revelation of who God is.  Yes, there are stories about the tribes of Israel--but these are not even half of the Bible.  There is much more to see.  If the tribes' stories are not your favorite, start with the New Testament.  John is a very nice book to read, and I like Matthew, too.  The book of Acts also has good stories.

 

You may have read them all before, but if it has been awhile, why not give it another go?

 

Best wishes for your happiness.

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Hellfire lasts forever.  Its punishment is irreversible.  But no sinner will be tormented forever.  The conclusion that many atheists make, based upon the false teaching of eternal hell, that there cannot be a loving God...

...in the light of these considerations, it appears logical that a soul "travels " various, perhaps countless incarnations, to learn from its own mistakes and correct them.

Although the bible doesn't clearly mention rebirth/reincarnation, there's a hint of it, when Jesus meets John the Baptist, and says to his friends that the 2 of them know each other from before ..

According to some scholars, Jesus was Eliseo, and John his master, the prophet Elijah, in a previous life.

[AsianAtHeart]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

...in the light of these considerations, it appears logical that a soul "travels " various, perhaps countless incarnations, to learn from its own mistakes and correct them.

Although the bible doesn't clearly mention rebirth/reincarnation, there's a hint of it, when Jesus meets John the Baptist, and says to his friends that the 2 of them know each other from before ..

According to some scholars, Jesus was Eliseo, and John his master, the prophet Elijah, in a previous life.

What text of the scripture might you be considering in making this statement? 

 

John could not have known Jesus already from some former existence, because Luke 7:19 says "And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?" 

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

What text of the scripture might you be considering in making this statement? 

 

John could not have known Jesus already from some former existence, because Luke 7:19 says "And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?" 

My reporting of an interpretation of the bible, not the bible itself, which at the moment I'm not able to quote more accurately. 

I'll let you know if I find the information I'm alluding to.

[mauGR1]

30 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

What text of the scripture might you be considering in making this statement? 

"As stated in the New Testament with a quote by Christ-Jesus, the Individuality known as the prophet Elijah re-appeared as or also worked through John the Baptist. Rudolf Steiner identified that this was an angelic being (1911-02-25-GA127) that also worked in Raphael and Novalis."

 

.. from a lecture of Rudolf Steiner; well of course these theories are better taken with a pinch of salt, but personally i have quite some faith in Steiner's lectures. 

[AsianAtHeart]

16 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

"As stated in the New Testament with a quote by Christ-Jesus, the Individuality known as the prophet Elijah re-appeared as or also worked through John the Baptist. Rudolf Steiner identified that this was an angelic being (1911-02-25-GA127) that also worked in Raphael and Novalis."

 

.. from a lecture of Rudolf Steiner; well of course these theories are better taken with a pinch of salt, but personally i have quite some faith in Steiner's lectures. 

That's not scripture.  In matters like this, only a "the Bible says..." will work with me.  Many people misinterpret the Bible.  I do not wish to base my understandings on them.  To discuss what the Bible teaches, we must start with what it actually says.

 

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

That's not scripture.  In matters like this, only a "the Bible says..." will work with me.  Many people misinterpret the Bible.  I do not wish to base my understandings on them.  To discuss what the Bible teaches, we must start with what it actually says.

 

Right, i understand your point of view, but I'm curious about the countless interpretations of the holy scriptures.

Surely i agree that there are many misinterpretations of the facts, which probably started with the apostles themselves, then the translators and the organized religion. 

I just keep an open mind about it, the study of the bible is  a very complex topic in itself, and surely not every word is meant to be taken literally. 

[AsianAtHeart]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

According to some scholars, Jesus was Eliseo, and John his master, the prophet Elijah, in a previous life.

Here is another Biblical evidence for why this could not have been true.
 

Quote

 

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them; (Mark 9:2)

and his garments became glistering, exceeding white, so as no fuller on earth can whiten them. (Mark 9:3)

And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:4)

And Peter answereth and saith to Jesus, Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. (Mark 9:5) [ASV]

 

So Elijah, who had been taken to heaven, as we might recall, in a fiery chariot, was brought from heaven to visit and to encourage Jesus. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

What text of the scripture might you be considering in making this statement? 

 

John could not have known Jesus already from some former existence, because Luke 7:19 says "And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?" 

Not to rain on your parade, but none of my belief in God has any basis whatsoever in the Bible.

I look at the wonder of Nature and know that it could not be merely the result of some freak cosmic accident.

To believe that there is no God, IMO implies that one believes everything in the universe just appeared, as if by magic, from nothing at all. I doubt science claims that something can come from nothing.

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

Here is another Biblical evidence for why this could not have been true.
 

So Elijah, who had been taken to heaven, as we might recall, in a fiery chariot, was brought from heaven to visit and to encourage Jesus. 

Well, perhaps I'm too thick, i don't see contradiction here, but some food for thought. 

Could "heaven" mean another planet in this or a parallel universe ?

Could be the "fiery chariot " a description of a flying vehicle?

I know it may sound absurd, but when God and celestial beings are involved, i have to remind  myself that everything is possible. 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt science claims that something can come from nothing.

But isn't that basically the point of the Big Bang theory?

 

I do, certainly, agree with you that nature testifies of the existence of God.  To take the Big Bang as an example, it is supposed to have been a huge explosion, and the matter that ejected from this explosion is said to have formed all of the known stars, planets, and galaxies.  Judging by the rate of supposed expansion of the universe, the effects of the alleged Big Bang are still seen.

 

But when was the last time you saw an explosion produce objects that twirled in circular motions?  Every explosion I've ever seen caused the ejecta to emerge in straight lines--straight out from the center of the explosion.  The only reason for anything to be deflected from that line would be the resistance of some other mass--but the universe, prior to the Big Bang, is said to have been an empty vacuum of space, so there could have been no mass out there! 

 

All one needs to see to be immediately knowledgeable enough to reject the plausibility of the Big Bang theory is Jupiter and its moons.  Jupiter has dozens of moons, the largest of which is larger than the planet Mercury.  We still do not know the full count of Jupiter's moons, and they orbit in opposite directions, without ever colliding, almost like clockwork.  An explosion could never have produced such orderly motion.

 

More details here:

 

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/jupiter-moons/overview/

 

And the moons can be at different orbital speeds.

 

Quote

Three of the moons influence each other in an interesting way. Io is in a tug-of-war with Ganymede and Europa, and Europa's orbital period (time to go around Jupiter once) is twice Io's period, and Ganymede's period is twice that of Europa. In other words, every time Ganymede goes around Jupiter once, Europa makes two orbits and Io makes four orbits. The moons all keep the same face towards Jupiter as they orbit, meaning that each moon turns once on its axis for every orbit around Jupiter.

[https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/jupiter-moons/in-depth/]

 

Wikipedia has a list summarizing the major features of each of the moons, including some info on their orbits.

 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jupiter's_moons

 

There's just no way that all happened by chance, random processes from a Big Bang.

[Hummin]

The bible is an important book for its time, but I do not see it as an absolute truth. 
 

Bear in mind @AsianAtHeart the big bang theory accept there most likely was something before, and there have always been something. A big bang theory is no more fantasy than a sperm finds its egg and create life? Also considering every little thing happening inside your body to keep you breathing, walking and talking. 
 

A virgin birth? Do you believe in that?
 

I do not need a god or creator because I am great full what ever it is, every time I get the chance to be in nature and also be around people Iove? 
 

Humble Knowing Im part of it gives rest to my mind

 

If the bible was the truth, god would not have given humans such a powerful weapon as sthe criptures to be used against each other in the way it have been. 
 

In one way given accept for exploiting this planet in Jesus name. 

[Sunmaster]

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

To believe that there is no God, IMO implies that one believes everything in the universe just appeared, as if by magic, from nothing at all. I doubt science claims that something can come from nothing.

You are quite right to disbelieve that something can be created from nothing. 'Nothing', using a literal definition, cannot possibly exist.

 

The singularity of the Big Bang is not described as 'nothing'. It's an infinitely dense and hot quantity of matter compressed into a very tiny area.

 

In ordinary language, we tend to use words sloppily, from the scientific perspective. We walk into a room and declare 'it's empty'. From the scientific perspective, it's definitely not empty. It's full of trillions and gazillions of air molecules and photons of various wave lengths.

 

We tend to think that a 'vacuum' might be an example of empty space, because we've removed all the air molecules. But that's not true. A vacuum is bustling with many sorts of particles and waves that science is continuing to discover.

 

The following article migh provide some insights for you.
https://www.wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2012/12/20/what-keeps-space-empty/#:~:text=Space is not empty.,and neutrinos from nuclear reactions.

 

"Space is not empty. A point in outer space is filled with gas, dust, a wind of charged particles from the stars, light from stars, cosmic rays, radiation left over from the Big Bang, gravity, electric and magnetic fields, and neutrinos from nuclear reactions. 

 

Even a "perfect" vacuum would still hold vacuum energy, the Higgs field, and spacetime curvature. Space seems empty to humans because we can't see most of the stuff there, and because there is much less air than we are used to."
 

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Space is not empty. A point in outer space is filled with gas, dust, a wind of charged particles from the stars, light from stars, cosmic rays, radiation left over from the Big Bang, gravity, electric and magnetic fields, and neutrinos from nuclear reactions. 

I guess that even the most fanatic religious fundamentalist could agree with that, but then, how would you explain the "order of the universe " or the "organization of life" ?

If it's orderly and organized, there must be a sort of a project behind. 

And if there's a project,  a design, there must be intelligence and consciousness. 

Or perhaps order and organization can happen randomly?

But science says that randomness is unlikely, there must be a rational explanation behind everything, right ?

So back we are to step 1.

[Elad]

7 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

But isn't that basically the point of the Big Bang theory?

 

I do, certainly, agree with you that nature testifies of the existence of God.  To take the Big Bang as an example, it is supposed to have been a huge explosion, and the matter that ejected from this explosion is said to have formed all of the known stars, planets, and galaxies.  Judging by the rate of supposed expansion of the universe, the effects of the alleged Big Bang are still seen.

 

But when was the last time you saw an explosion produce objects that twirled in circular motions?  Every explosion I've ever seen caused the ejecta to emerge in straight lines--straight out from the center of the explosion.  The only reason for anything to be deflected from that line would be the resistance of some other mass--but the universe, prior to the Big Bang, is said to have been an empty vacuum of space, so there could have been no mass out there! 

You've probably been watching too many popular science programs on discovery. The big bang wasn't an explosion within space, it was the beginning of space and time itself. A regular explosion within space has a center, whereas the universe has no definite central location, in fact the center of the universe is everywhere, the big bang happened everywhere. If you measure the expansion of the universe from Earth or from a Galaxy a billion light years away, the expansion is always centered on you. Also, the big bang theory is not a theory of how the universe started, its a theory of how the it evolved from a time after t = 0 and all the matter/energy within the universe is already there, it doesn't say anything about how the matter/energy got there.

 

The reason we see order in universe is due to the constants of nature being fixed, and as far as we know they do not change with time. When the laws are fixed systems become in equilibrium. Take the stars for example they are in equilibrium, the outward pressure from fusion is exactly balanced by gravity trying to crush the star inwards. If the gravitational constant was not fixed and changed just slightly, then the stars would either implode or blow themselves apart, the universe would be chaotic and life as we know it would not exist.