Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, Tagged said:

No, Im a human with all it comes with or without. But I would not  imagine or think we are anymore special than any other creation on this planet. Im also happy to fall to rest with my knownledge that I will never know what we really are or why we are here, or where we come from or where we are going. 

 

Dust to dust ????

Well, that's common sense, thanks God. 

However,  I think we should not be too harsh in judging humankind with all its good and bad qualities. 

As you said a few posts above,  we are "wired" to survive in a hostile environment, so it's not entirely our fault if we go over the top sometimes. 

As a dominant animal on this planet, I think we are " special " though,  not necessarily in a good way.

[Tagged]

31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, that's common sense, thanks God. 

However,  I think we should not be too harsh in judging humankind with all its good and bad qualities. 

As you said a few posts above,  we are "wired" to survive in a hostile environment, so it's not entirely our fault if we go over the top sometimes. 

As a dominant animal on this planet, I think we are " special " though,  not necessarily in a good way.

Many creatures have been dominant on this planet that never made it. However som few reptiles and creatures still here almost unchanged who lived with dinosours. Thats what we call perfection.

 

Oh, and human kind is 300 000 years give and take. I would guess it gave been good years to evolve us to be dominant. But how long have we really been dominant?

 

Thats the question

Edited January 29, 2021 by Tagged

[johnbarpic]

I was told when God created man she made a mistake ????????yep a woman told me

[mauGR1]

13 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Many creatures have been dominant on this planet that never made it. However som few reptiles and creatures still here almost unchanged who lived with dinosours. Thats what we call perfection.

 

Oh, and human kind is 300 000 years give and take. I would guess it gave been good years to evolve us to be dominant. But how long have we really been dominant?

 

Thats the question

Not easy to answer that question, even for the best scientists.

Despite all the knowledge and the tools available, our history starts with the invention of the script.

Many scientists admit the inaccuracy of carbon 14 dating too, I rather believe the legends about the great flood. 

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, to be honest,  I agree with you  in that regard, it seems rather absurd.

 Better inform Sunmaster, then. He seems to believe this is 'overthinking'. ????

[mauGR1]

17 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 Better inform Sunmaster, then. He seems to believe this is 'overthinking'. ????

Well, to be blunt, it was "underthinking" if you ask me.

All those Christian, Buddhist, Zen parables need a grain of salt added, so to speak, to be entirely understood ????

[Sunmaster]

58 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 Better inform Sunmaster, then. He seems to believe this is 'overthinking'. ????

Sorry, but I still think you're overthinking/rationalizing it, and by doing so completely miss the point of the parable.

Being a Taosit parable, you have to look deeper than the first and obvious interpretation. To me, it poses the question of what is reality and hints at the spiritual awakening that sooner or later awaits all of us. 

When you dream, your dream body and the landscape you find yourself in, may be very different from your waking life. Yet, you'll find all kinds of ways to rationalize it (Oh, I have 6 fingers. Yeah, that's totally normal. Always been like that.) and are 100% sure everything is as it should be.
When you awake to this reality then, you can laugh about it and you're 100% sure this the "real" reality. You think this body is what you really look like, that you have an identity with a set of defined character traits and so on.

Now comes the jump. What if this reality is just another dream state? What if everything you've held to be true until now is just another illusion? Sages who have spiritually awakened (and the word "awakened" has not been chosen at random!), all claim the same thing. That this reality is just another illusion and that the new level of consciousness is your REAL identity. 
And just as it is possible to be lucid while dreaming, it is possible to become "spiritually" lucid in this reality and know who the real dreamer is.

It also poses the question if the level beyond our material reality is not itself another stepping stone to yet another bigger reality.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Tagged]

@Sunmaster

 

When I had alot of workload and timelines, I often dream about my job, and often found solutions when I was dreaming, so I started to keep a notebook next to me so I could make sure I would remember it in the morning. So it is not just for fantasy and out of this world matters ???? 

 

Often my most creative ideas came when i was dreaming. 

[VincentRJ]

15 hours ago, Tagged said:

@Sunmaster

 

When I had alot of workload and timelines, I often dream about my job, and often found solutions when I was dreaming, so I started to keep a notebook next to me so I could make sure I would remember it in the morning. So it is not just for fantasy and out of this world matters ???? 

 

Often my most creative ideas came when i was dreaming. 

The complete purpose of dreams is not fully understood, but it's generally accepted that dreams do have some purpose in improving creativity and solving problems.

 

The way this works could be that many different memories might be activated at the same time when dreaming. The mixing together of such memories might result in a strange dream but also might provide a unique perspective on a particular problem that one has been mulling over whilst awake.
 

[VincentRJ]

16 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Now comes the jump. What if this reality is just another dream state? What if everything you've held to be true until now is just another illusion? Sages who have spiritually awakened (and the word "awakened" has not been chosen at random!), all claim the same thing. That this reality is just another illusion and that the new level of consciousness is your REAL identity. 

 

It's reasonable to consider that everything we perceive is a combination of both the characteristics of the thing that is perceived and the characteristics of our unique sensory characteristics and processing skills as human beings. If we separate those two bundles of characteristics, then there's nothing to perceive.

 

I've mentioned the following example before, in this thread. Most humans would agree that a particular leaf is green, except perhaps certain color-blind people. However, the leaf's color is a characteristic of human perception which exists only in the mind, and presumably the mind of all creatures with eyesight, except those few creatures who see only in black and white. The leaf itself has no intrinsic color.

 

A common human characteristic is to project what we experience onto the object, or creature, or person, that we identify as the source of that experience. We see a leaf as green and project the sensation of 'greenness' onto the leaf. If we have a phobia about snakes, then whenever we see a snake we will likely project our horror and disgust onto the snake, probably unaware that the 'horror and disgust' are characteristics that exist only in our own mind (although it's possible a snake might also have an equivalent feeling of horror and disgust when encountering certain human beings.  ????  )

 

The idea that everything that any 'normal' person has held to be true could be just an illusion, as in a dream, seems like a ridiculous exaggeration to me. We survive and prosper as a species to the extent that we can connect with reality.

 

Do the sages and gurus you admire believe the food they are eating is just an illusion? Do they believe the farmers, and their activities and knowledge of farming practices, are all an illusion? Do they believe that the technological development that has allowed man to travel to the moon, is just an illusion? ????
 

[Sunmaster]

18 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

It's reasonable to consider that everything we perceive is a combination of both the characteristics of the thing that is perceived and the characteristics of our unique sensory characteristics and processing skills as human beings. If we separate those two bundles of characteristics, then there's nothing to perceive.

 

I've mentioned the following example before, in this thread. Most humans would agree that a particular leaf is green, except perhaps certain color-blind people. However, the leaf's color is a characteristic of human perception which exists only in the mind, and presumably the mind of all creatures with eyesight, except those few creatures who see only in black and white. The leaf itself has no intrinsic color.

 

A common human characteristic is to project what we experience onto the object, or creature, or person, that we identify as the source of that experience. We see a leaf as green and project the sensation of 'greenness' onto the leaf. If we have a phobia about snakes, then whenever we see a snake we will likely project our horror and disgust onto the snake, probably unaware that the 'horror and disgust' are characteristics that exist only in our own mind (although it's possible a snake might also have an equivalent feeling of horror and disgust when encountering certain human beings.  ????  )

 

The idea that everything that any 'normal' person has held to be true could be just an illusion, as in a dream, seems like a ridiculous exaggeration to me. We survive and prosper as a species to the extent that we can connect with reality.

 

Do the sages and gurus you admire believe the food they are eating is just an illusion? Do they believe the farmers, and their activities and knowledge of farming practices, are all an illusion? Do they believe that the technological development that has allowed man to travel to the moon, is just an illusion? ????
 

What is the most fundamental difference between dreaming and waking?

If you were to be shown a brain scan of your dreaming mind, its activity would appear almost indistinguishable from that of an equivalent scan taken while you were awake. The dreaming and the waking mind are very similar places.

But what is a dream in its most basic form?
I think we can safely define it as a mental model of an experience.
Funnily enough, the same definition would fit the waking experience too, and you already made an example for that in your post. We don't see the actual object, but we receive the information carried by light into our optical nerves, where they are converted into data impulses and sent off to relevant parts of our brain to be interpreted.
The world you experience right now is therefore just a mental model of what is "out there". You experience the model, not the actual object.

Just like you couldn't grasp the meaning of the parable you yourself posted, because you interpreted it literally (reminds me of another bible loving person...) ???? , I think it will be difficult to wrap your head around the idea that this might be all a dream/illusion too. Not just for you, mind you....Only a small percentage of people have recurring lucid dreams, even less become lucid in this reality. 
Only someone who has awakened has the ability to distinguish a dream from reality. The same way, only someone who has experienced a spiritual awakening/enlightenment has the ability to see this reality for what it really is: another illusion. 

 

30 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Do the sages and gurus you admire believe the food they are eating is just an illusion? Do they believe the farmers, and their activities and knowledge of farming practices, are all an illusion? Do they believe that the technological development that has allowed man to travel to the moon, is just an illusion? ????

If you're (really) interested, there's plenty of material out there that talks about this. 
Just look at Buddhism (but it's the core aim of every religion)...its whole teaching revolves around setting man free from samsara (cycle of birth and death/the world/this reality) and set him on a path of awakening/enlightenment. In other words, Buddhism shows you that this world is illusion (maya) and that the belief that this dream is real is the cause of all the suffering. 
 

 

[Tagged]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

 

 

Do the sages and gurus you admire believe the food they are eating is just an illusion? Do they believe the farmers, and their activities and knowledge of farming practices, are all an illusion? Do they believe that the technological development that has allowed man to travel to the moon, is just an illusion? ????
 

There is som control points, and that is:

Sex is better in dream state

Pain is greater and long lasting awake

Dying in a dream by being shot or falling out of sky, you just stand up and shake the dust off, and think this was nothing

Fighting scenes in the dreams is surreal. I quite confident when Im dreaming and useal I know Im dreaming.

 

Never ever dream I was eating yet ????

 

 

[VincentRJ]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

What is the most fundamental difference between dreaming and waking?If you were to be shown a brain scan of your dreaming mind, its activity would appear almost indistinguishable from that of an equivalent scan taken while you were awake. The dreaming and the waking mind are very similar places.

But what is a dream in its most basic form?
I think we can safely define it as a mental model of an experience.

I would say that there are at least three fundamental differences between dreaming and waking.
(1) Whilst dreaming, awareness to external stimuli is greatly reduced.
(2) High-level functions are suspended.
(3) Meaningful interaction with the external world is lacking.

 

I learned at least part of these concepts around the age of 5, when I had a vivid dream that included my parents. I was puzzled by a certain activity I experienced in my dream. Because my father was there in my dream, also witnessing this activity, I described the incident to him in the morning and asked him what had been going on.

 

He replied that he didn't know. I was surprised and said, 'But you were there, Daddy. I saw you clearly.'

 

My father then explained to me that it was just a dream and was not reality.
So, what I suggest you do, Sunmaster, to confirm the difference between a dream and reality, is the next time you have a dream which features a friend, or neighbor, or some famous person, contact those people the next day and ask them if they remember being there in your dream.  ????
 

[Sunmaster]

44 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I was puzzled

I think you still are... ????

[mauGR1]

56 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I would say that there are at least three fundamental differences between dreaming and waking.
(1) Whilst dreaming, awareness to external stimuli is greatly reduced.
(2) High-level functions are suspended.
(3) Meaningful interaction with the external world is lacking.

 

I learned at least part of these concepts around the age of 5, when I had a vivid dream that included my parents. I was puzzled by a certain activity I experienced in my dream. Because my father was there in my dream, also witnessing this activity, I described the incident to him in the morning and asked him what had been going on.

 

He replied that he didn't know. I was surprised and said, 'But you were there, Daddy. I saw you clearly.'

 

My father then explained to me that it was just a dream and was not reality.
So, what I suggest you do, Sunmaster, to confirm the difference between a dream and reality, is the next time you have a dream which features a friend, or neighbor, or some famous person, contact those people the next day and ask them if they remember being there in your dream.  ????
 

Appreciate the joke, but according to some, persons you meet often in dreams have strong karmic ties, and obviously most, if not all humans have karmic ties with their parents.

[jvs]

I believe when you dream the brain is trying up to clear up matters that are keeping your

mind busy(wether you realize it or not)so while you are sleeping the brain is trying to put things into

perspective.

Kind of strange when you realize your brain does not trust your mind but that is how i see it.

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

I think you still are... ????

Indeed I am...puzzled why some adults still have difficulty in separating their dreams from the reality of being awake, which I was able to do at the age of 5. ????

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Indeed I am...puzzled why some adults still have difficulty in separating their dreams from the reality of being awake, which I was able to do at the age of 5. ????

Missing the point again....must be a hobby of yours. ????

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Missing the point again....must be a hobby of yours. ????

 

 No. Demolishing the point using common sense and rationality. ????

Edited January 30, 2021 by VincentRJ

[mauGR1]

36 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

 No. Demolishing the point using common sense and rationality. ????

To demolish something you'd probably better first to see it ????

[faraday]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Indeed I am...puzzled why some adults still have difficulty in separating their dreams from the reality of being awake, which I was able to do at the age of 5. ????

 Does that mean your consciousness operates whilst you dream?

 

 

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, mauGR1 said:

To demolish something you'd probably better first to see it ????

 Of course! How could one even address or discuss a point before seeing it, never mind demolishing it? The value of a personal opinion, or point that is made, is dependent on the quality of the evidence provided.

[mauGR1]

25 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 Of course! How could one even address or discuss a point before seeing it, never mind demolishing it? The value of a personal opinion, or point that is made, is dependent on the quality of the evidence provided.

Well, it's you who's claiming the demolition of a point,  which,  in my humble opinion, you have not fully understood ????

[VincentRJ]

9 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, it's you who's claiming the demolition of a point,  which,  in my humble opinion, you have not fully understood ????

 

I don't claim to fully understand anything. However, after some reflection on the posts in this thread, I'm beginning to consider the possibility that many people who have a very poor grasp on reality might be living in a dream or similar state of mind; especially those who, when awake after dreaming they were a butterfly, are having difficulty in determining whether or not they are actually a butterfly dreaming they are a human being. ????

 

So I offer my apologies to all those who have a poor grasp of reality. ????

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

 

I don't claim to fully understand anything. However, after some reflection on the posts in this thread, I'm beginning to consider the possibility that many people who have a very poor grasp on reality might be living in a dream or similar state of mind; especially those who, when awake after dreaming they were a butterfly, are having difficulty in determining whether or not they are actually a butterfly dreaming they are a human being. ????

 

So I offer my apologies to all those who its have a poor grasp of reality. ????

That was hilarious, thanks for the morning giggle. 

So, to use a metaphor,  suppose you are looking at the magnificent Taj Mahal, and its image reflected on a pond, is there something not real in the reflected image ?

I suspect that the dreaming state is a state of consciousness, and thus a "reality ".

Realities behave differently in different environments or places or elements, in this case, the metaphor of the reflected image sounds appropriate to me.

So you can say that dreams are not real, but you'd have to concede that they are real too ????

[Tagged]

6 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

That was hilarious, thanks for the morning giggle. 

So, to use a metaphor,  suppose you are looking at the magnificent Taj Mahal, and its image reflected on a pond, is there something not real in the reflected image ?

I suspect that the dreaming state is a state of consciousness, and thus a "reality ".

Realities behave differently in different environments or places or elements, in this case, the metaphor of the reflected image sounds appropriate to me.

So you can say that dreams are not real, but you'd have to concede that they are real too ????

I really love this thread for its diversity and also the moderators liberal moderating on this theme. Best thread ever, but guess for a very very narrow and limited group on TV.

 

 

 

 

[mauGR1]

32 minutes ago, Tagged said:

I really love this thread for its diversity and also the moderators liberal moderating on this theme. Best thread ever, but guess for a very very narrow and limited group on TV.

 

 

 

 

Agree.

Thanks by the way for resuscitating the thread from time to time ????

[VincentRJ]

5 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

That was hilarious, thanks for the morning giggle. 

So, to use a metaphor,  suppose you are looking at the magnificent Taj Mahal, and its image reflected on a pond, is there something not real in the reflected image ?

There could be, for someone who doesn't understand that water can reflect light as a mirror does. Imagine a couple of people going to the pond for a swim. One of them says, 'Let's dive in.' The other, who has a very poor grasp of reality, says, 'No way! There's a bloody big building under the water. I'd crack my head.' So his friend then explains to him that the 'real' building is over there, and what he see in the water is no more than a reflection.

 

"I suspect that the dreaming state is a state of consciousness, and thus a "reality ".
Realities behave differently in different environments or places or elements, in this case, the metaphor of the reflected image sounds appropriate to me.
So you can say that dreams are not real, but you'd have to concede that they are real too"

 

Okay! Another example, which I've mentioned before. A lady is seriously grieving over the death of her husband and cannot accept that he's gone. One day, at a dinner table with other friends, she hallucinates that her husband is sitting in the empty chair opposite her, and shouts with glee, 'My husband has returned.' The others at the table are a bit alarmed and try to explain to her that there's no-one sitting in the chair, but the woman insists there is.

 

Now, I agree that an hallucination is a state of consciousness, but I wouldn't call it a state of 'reality'. Would you?

 

This is why we need to precisely define the words we use. How would you define reality? Any state of consciousness, whether an hallucination, a belief in fairies, or a belief in any type of God or fanciful and mystical experience? ????

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

There could be, for someone who doesn't understand that water can reflect light as a mirror does. Imagine a couple of people going to the pond for a swim. One of them says, 'Let's dive in.' The other, who has a very poor grasp of reality, says, 'No way! There's a bloody big building under the water. I'd crack my head.' So his friend then explains to him that the 'real' building is over there, and what he see in the water is no more than a reflection.

 

"I suspect that the dreaming state is a state of consciousness, and thus a "reality ".
Realities behave differently in different environments or places or elements, in this case, the metaphor of the reflected image sounds appropriate to me.
So you can say that dreams are not real, but you'd have to concede that they are real too"

 

Okay! Another example, which I've mentioned before. A lady is seriously grieving over the death of her husband and cannot accept that he's gone. One day, at a dinner table with other friends, she hallucinates that her husband is sitting in the empty chair opposite her, and shouts with glee, 'My husband has returned.' The others at the table are a bit alarmed and try to explain to her that there's no-one sitting in the chair, but the woman insists there is.

 

Now, I agree that an hallucination is a state of consciousness, but I wouldn't call it a state of 'reality'. Would you?

 

This is why we need to precisely define the words we use. How would you define reality? Any state of consciousness, whether an hallucination, a belief in fairies, or a belief in any type of God or fanciful and mystical experience? ????

Well, I was talking of the real consciousness one experiences in a dream state.

You appear to be fond of hallucinations , but it's not what i  was talking about ????

[VincentRJ]

20 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, I was talking of the real consciousness one experiences in a dream state.

You appear to be fond of hallucinations , but it's not what i  was talking about ????

Dreams are a type of hallucination. Didn't you know that? ????

 

I'll edit this with a link, just so you know I'm not making this up. ????

 

"Dreams and drug-induced hallucinations have several phenomenological similarities, especially with respect to their visual and emotive components. This similarity is hypothesized to be due to a neurochemical mechanism which is common to both states: the inactivation of the brain serotonin system."

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0149763478900076#:~:text=Dreams and drug-induced hallucinations,of the brain serotonin system.

Edited January 31, 2021 by VincentRJ